157 replies to this topic

[God of War]

The Dragon wins! More speed and more mass is what makes here the diffrence.
The dragon doesnt even need to shoot the the Centurion.
Even infight wont save the centurion, a kick is all neded to unarmor one leg.
A straight line charge lets the dragon walk through the Centurion like through a wall of paper.

[Adridos]

I pick Shadow Hawk.

That means Dragon for me, beause SH will not make it into the game for sure.


P.S: Centurion has Japan engine in it.

[Omigir]

I am a speed demon.. But I would still have to go with the Centurion.

The look alone of the redesign would be enough to cuase another pilot to **** himself.

In reality though, every one that says situation dependant is right. However, I feel compitent enough as a pilot that I would be able to use that Centuion well enough that I can keep that dragon rocking enough that it wont be able to use its range to great effect and put the two on near equal footing.

[ScreamingSkull]

Galban, on 25 January 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Dragon long range mech, Centurion is a medium range mech... Dragon has the speed to stay at range and take some hits compared to the Cent.

I really do not get this repeated sentiment that the Dragon has better range than the Centurion. They both have LRM-10s and the Dragon's AC/5 only has a 3 hex max range advantage over the AC/10 at the sacrifice of having a minimum range of 3 hexes. The Centurion isn't at a disadvantage range wise because, at least in tabletop, the only hope a Dragon would have for "kiting" a Centurion would be backing up to keep range, yet the Centurion can run faster than the Dragon can back up, allowing the Centurion to close in and take advantage of the Dragon's main weapons having very high minimum ranges (the AC/10 has no minimum range).

(AC/10 max range is 15 hexes, 450 meters, no minimum range)
(AC/5 max range is 18 hexes, 540 meters, 3 hex/90 meter minimum range)

While I like that mechs like Dragon exist for roleplaying purposes, it really is just a hunk of junk with only 25 max damage, nice speed, crap close range, and average armor.

[Dragon Lady]

ScreamingSkull, on 26 January 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

I really do not get this repeated sentiment that the Dragon has better range than the Centurion. They both have LRM-10s and the Dragon's AC/5 only has a 3 hex max range advantage over the AC/10 at the sacrifice of having a minimum range of 3 hexes. The Centurion isn't at a disadvantage range wise because, at least in tabletop, the only hope a Dragon would have for "kiting" a Centurion would be backing up to keep range, yet the Centurion can run faster than the Dragon can back up, allowing the Centurion to close in and take advantage of the Dragon's main weapons having very high minimum ranges (the AC/10 has no minimum range).

(AC/10 max range is 15 hexes, 450 meters, no minimum range)
(AC/5 max range is 18 hexes, 540 meters, 3 hex/90 meter minimum range)

While I like that mechs like Dragon exist for roleplaying purposes, it really is just a hunk of junk with only 25 max damage, nice speed, crap close range, and average armor.

In the tabletop game, each +1 penalty to hit is progressively harder to hit. Assuming that the Dragon can take advantage of its speed, in a long-range duel, the advantage is clearly to the Dragon.

With 8 movement points, there are a number of tactics it can take that allow it to pick apart the Centurion at range.

Optimally, the Dragon circle the Centurion, in order to keep the Centurion at its optimal range as long as possible. With the speed difference, the Centurion would be able to close the distance between the two 'Mechs at a rate of about one hex per turn. However, at the speed the Dragon is moving, an average pilot would not be able to hit the Dragon at all until it has closed to medium range. Meanwhile, the Dragon's accuracy at long range would be about 3%, and at medium range, 17%. By the time the Centurion has reached medium range for its AC/10, it would've already lost half a ton of armor, while it would be lucky to hit the Dragon once with its LRMs.

Even at medium AC/10 range, the advantage is to the Dragon. Because its turning radius is smaller than the Dragon's, the Centurion is effectively slower at this rate. Its accuracy rate would only be 8%, while the Dragon's accuracy rate is 28%. Taking three times as much damage as your foe, even when there's an armor parity, is not a winning strategy. Again, the Centurion's only hope is to close to "slugging match" range. While it's doing so, it's going to lose another ton of armor. Meanwhile, it'll probably only hit the Dragon once... probably with its LRM again.

As the Centurion continues to close, the Medium Lasers come into play, and soon the LRMs reach their minimum range. At this point, it is to the Dragon's advantage to not let the Centurion get any closer, and with its mobility, it can do so easily. In addition, the Dragon is having to more tightly as well, so its effective speed is slower as well. The Dragon's AC/5 and LRM 10 are at short range, and its able to hit its prey at 58% and 42% of the time, respectively, while its Medium Laser has an 28% accuracy. The Centurion is still at Medium Range for all its weapons except the LRMs (at minimum range), and the Dragon's speed still means that the Centurion can only hit 17% and 28% of the time, respectively.That is, at "slugging match" range, the Dragon is doing an average of 7 points of damage per salvo, while the Centurion is doing an average of 4.

This is unwinnable for the Centurion as it is, but there are two other factors in play. The first is that the Centurion has already suffered 20% damage to its front armor, which was about the same as the Dragon's (whose rear armor is twice as thick) to begin with, while the Dragon has barely been scratched. And at that range, the Centurion has heat problems. After four salvos, it's going to start having targeting problems, and its speed drops. After five salvos, its speed has been halved, and is thus an easier target for the Dragon. And after seven salvos, those problems will be severe enough that it won't be able to hit with its AC and Lasers at all.


As an alternative, it can "back up" as fast as the Centurion can advance. At six MPs, the Dragon can move six hexes, while changing its facing by 120%, Add in a torso twist, and the Dragon can bring all its weapons to bear, allowing it to remain at its optimal engagement range, while keeping out of the Centurion's optimal engagement range. At that range, the Dragon will be hitting with its AC/5 will be hitting approximately six times (3% vs 17%) as often as the Centurion. When the Centurion has emptied its AC magazine, the Dragon allow the Centurion to close to just outside medium laser range, increasing its accuracy rate to 42%. By the time both 'Mechs empty their magazines, both AC and LRM, the Dragon would've hit the Centurion twelve times on average with its AC for 60 points of damage, while the Centurion might've hit the Dragon once for 10 points of damage. At this point, their only option is to close to medium laser range, but the Dragon's speed means that it can still keep the Centurion far enough away that it can hit six times as often.

Finally, pity the Centurion that doesn't chase the Dragon. The Dragon can happily circle the Centurion at outside its AC range, while keeping its weapons at medium range. Since the Centurion isn't a moving target, the Dragon's accuracy rate is 42%, while the Centurion's LRMs accuracy rate are 27%. Taking three times as much damage as you deal out is a losing strategy when you have an armor parity.

Don't ever underestimate speed. All the weapons in the world don't matter much if you can't hit what you're aiming at.

Of course, if the Centurion can eliminate the Dragon's speed advantage and close to "slugging match" range, then the advantage is to the Centurion. If a Dragon pilot is stupid enough to take a long range skirmisher into a short range melee, then she deserves to be blown out of the cockpit.

[GargoyleKDR]

Garth Erlam, on 25 January 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

The AC/5 has a far greater range though. So you could skirmish your way to a victory against a quite frustrated Centurion pilot. Keep in mind 86/kmh is insanely fast for a Heavy 'Mech, especially in this time period.

In the old MPBT it was an accepted tactic to "fade" during the engagement in order to maintain a range superiority. In the case of a Dragon vs. a Centurion the LRM's would both be in play, but once the AC/5 was just in range the Dragon would go into reverse instead of continuing to close the distance with the Centurion. On an open field this tactic allows the Dragon to rain much more damage upon the Centurion than it is taking in return. Only once the Centurion's AC/10 is in range does the damage potential shift from the Dragon to the Centurion. However, the Dragon player would focus on destroying the Centurion's arm carrying the AC/10 while its range superiority was still in effect. Once that happened the battle was heavily swayed in the Dragon's favor no matter what the range they were at.


- Garg.

Edited by GargoyleKDR, 26 January 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@ Dragon Lady. What you have said is a perfect exposition of how it will work in TT play. However here we are talking about a PC game where the "to hit" modifiers, other than reticule shake etc are down to the skills of the pilot. We know from what the dev's have said that we won't have wide open flat areas for long range circle of death manouvers. I think that if we are looking at mostly ranges of 300-500m then it becomes much more even, possibly even advantage Centurion, with equally skilled pilots. Given a mobile fight it may well be that you can't even achieve lock with your LRMs. Although both mechs have their place I think that for PvP in MWO, given the way they seem to be heading, I would pick the Centurion. Depending on the terrain and objectives. Sometimes the Dragon's speed would make it preferable.

[Elizander]

I really hate the AC/5 (AC/10 and up are fine) due to the fact that it feels like a 9 ton Medium Laser. A PPC or just a Large Laser with extra Heat Sinks would be more efficient as a main weapon.

That said, if I'm in the middle of the pack in terms of weight, I would want some speed and 4/6 is just too slow for a medium mech. You can't scout and you're fire support at best, albeit (thanks to the redesign) you're a damn cool looking fire support mech. It might work out in an urban scenario. I'd hate to make that Centurion run into the open in other environments.

I would go with the Dragon with more armor and higher movement because I feel it would be able to contribute more to a fight since it can actually flank and scout decently as well as take more hits.

I'd bring a Centurion for fun and I'd pilot a Dragon for more serious things.

[Maurice]

to slow needs a up grade maybe masc the dragon that is

[Curon Hifor]

Rhinehart, on 25 January 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Depends on many factors. Mission, Battlefield, and role.

I'm of a similar opinioin. It depends on how I'm outfitting my Lance(s). If no one is willing to pilot a Jenner for scouting purposes, the Dragon now becomes the Scout. If we have a Jenner for scouting, then the Dragon guards the Catapult and combines fire with it, with either a Hunchback, Atlas, or Centurion filling the last slot. It all depends on terrain, pilot preference, and strategy.

[Mchawkeye]

I'm not sure how all the talk of TT will help decide mechs for use in a computer game (Hexes not being an integral part of the sim), but i appreciate the sentiment.

Having said that...I choose neither. One on one urban? Cent. One on one in the open? Dragon.

It's not a matter of which is better, it's a matter of which is the right tool for the right job. It's like asking which would you prefer, a helicopter or a jet? (ok...maybe it's not actually like that...but you get the idea) They are both good at the jobs they are designed to do; and putting the wrong mech in the wrong role is how things go fubar. And if we know anything, this game is as much about being in the correct role as it is about having the biggest honkin' gun.

On looks though? I really like the new Cent, but the Dragon wins. Looks tougher, more industrial...like me...

[Trogusaur]

Well even if it seems like the Centurion has the advantage on paper, 64kph is a walking death trap for a medium mech. Even with the heavier AC, the Centy loses in any stretch of open terrain to virtually any mech either faster or bigger than it. Think, most lights run around 90 kph and could easily circle strafe or city ambush a lone Centy, killing with bug bites. Anything larger than this mech will rip it to shreds if the pilot can't use cover effectively, even the Hunchback seems like a better idea when talking mobility and firepower.

[Elizander]

Curon Hifor, on 26 January 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

I'm of a similar opinioin. It depends on how I'm outfitting my Lance(s). If no one is willing to pilot a Jenner for scouting purposes, the Dragon now becomes the Scout. If we have a Jenner for scouting, then the Dragon guards the Catapult and combines fire with it, with either a Hunchback, Atlas, or Centurion filling the last slot. It all depends on terrain, pilot preference, and strategy.

I'd actually put the Centurion with the Catapult since they move at the same speed. It also has a harder hitting long range punch than the Dragon to better compliment the LRM spammage. The Dragon would be deprived of its mobility and armor advantage if it had to babysit a Catapult.

[Curon Hifor]

Elizander, on 26 January 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I'd actually put the Centurion with the Catapult since they move at the same speed. It also has a harder hitting long range punch than the Dragon to better compliment the LRM spammage. The Dragon would be deprived of its mobility and armor advantage if it had to babysit a Catapult.

Touche, sir. Then the Dragon can use it's maneuverability to support the Jenner when (not if) the Jenner gets into trouble. Very good.

[Brakkyn]

This is all speculation, so let's go with proven facts and present opinions instead of opinionated facts.

I think we're all assuming shots will always hit. I also think we're assuming both pilots are of equal skill.

The Dragon has a range advantage, but this is assuming he doesn't eat up all his AC5 ammo trying for maximum range hits and getting misses. The advantage of the AC10 on the Centurion is damage, at the cost of having to close with the target at a slower top speed.

Both have an LRM10; both have two medium lasers. The difference in weaponry is the autocannon and the range of it.

A higher top speed doesn't mean one can run circles around the other. Assuming you CAN run circles, assuming you can use your LRMs and cannon shots effectively at closer ranges. All of this assuming you're a competent pilot.

I think the match-up would invariably be pretty even.

[Orcinus]

Given a choice, I would choose the Dragon.

Granted, I do prefer the Grand Dragon (specifically the 5K) over its predecesor.
But one of the selling points was the 10km/h speed boost.
From both playing TT (well, megamek that is) as well as MW4, I find every bit of speed to be invaluable.
While I do indeed find the AC/5 underwhelming, in a world without PPCs, one must do what one must.

As many people have pointed out, however, I find this comparison to be rather flawed.
Each mech is designed for different roles, and each has its own strengths.
In short, it all comes down to personal preference.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Solis Obscuri, on 26 January 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

Presumably because I got got drunk one night and woke up in the cockpit the next morning... no gnawing my arm off to get away now...

I like the Centurion, it's a good, well rounded, robust design, with decent armor and a lot of firepower for its size, and even if it's ammo dependent, it has plenty of ammo (and hell, you might as well use it before someone punches through your armor!). The Dragon has better speed and armor, but that's about it, not really enough ammo to sustain an engagement, so it amounts to sort of an overbuilt raider, fast, good hit and run weapons, more armor than it needs at range against most designs in it's weight class, but lacking the firepower or ammo reserves to really duke it out. It's a heavy design that's ok for running down lighter 'mechs, and ok for harassing other heavies that can't catch it in the open field, but that's about it - the Dragon is to heavies as the Assassin is to medium 'mechs.

Now, give me the option of a Griffin or a Quickdraw...

just going to say that both designs have at least 4 tons dedicated to ammo, both designs have 2 tons of LRM10 ammo giving it 24 shots for there LRM10's and 2 tons for there Autocannons

AC5 Ammo per ton 20 shots x 2 = 40 shots
AC10 Ammo per ton 10 shots x 2 = 20 shots
LRM10 Ammo per ton 12 x 2 = 24 shots (240 missles)

both deisngs armanets are almost duplicated, they have an LRM10 and 2 Med lasers 1 of which is rear mounted on both designs the only diffrence in there armament is the AC.

[TheRulesLawyer]

You choose the Dragon because you are a DC pilot and that's what you get issued. Not to mention it will probably cheaper to buy (mechs will have different costs by faction) and maintain (just a guess).

[Caballo]

I will apply the coherence, and answer: BECAUSE I AM A DRACONIS COMBINE MECHWARRIOR.

Plus it's faster and got better armour, but the main reason is above.

Edited by Caballo, 26 January 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Kasiagora]

In the end I think chances are that the Dragon will be a starter heavy for players that choose to play in the heavy weight-range will move up from. I'd suspect that the Centurion would be a higher end medium mech where they'd probably get something more like an Assassin or Clint as a starter.

This sort of thing happens a lot in tests in RL, where a magazine will test the best version of the Porsche Boxster against the base model Porsche Carrera. It's the highest end of the starter car versus the cheapest of the more expensive model. They have similar prices at that point and can go around a track in about the same time, it's just that they do it ever so slightly differently so it comes down to personal preference (the safe feeling neutrality of a mid-engine or the more challenging, slightly more rewarding risk of a rear-engine that doesn't actually go faster). Similarly with computer processors, a late-generation i3 might be faster than the base i5 but you can download some programs and overclock the i5 to a far greater speed than a top of the line i3 ever could. This is how I feel the starter mechs will be.
You may start out feeling strained because a Dervish is giving you such a hard time, but that guy worked hard for that mech and before you know it you'll be moving up to a Thunderbolt or something.