26 replies to this topic

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Nota Bene: I expect this will get more discussion from the Devs in the near future, but I'd like to see if anyone has any ideas/examples.

I am here to get your opinions, gentlemen, on this particular mechanic because I genuinely think it could make or break the game. Commanders have been in many games and filled a role similar to what they're describing. You can see it in the BF series, but I also like to point out the Half-Life mods Natural Selection and Nuclear Dawn.

What is my concern and what do I want to see the community discuss? Simple: How does it get done right?

Having just played Nuclear Dawn, the role of the commander felt very... weak. Certainly not like someone that had a commanding role in the battle. Does anyone have any ideas on how best to balance this or maybe had experience with good command roles in the past?

I personally thought Natural Selection was good, but possibly left too much in the hands of the commander. A bad CO could ruin a game, regardless of the efforts of the rest of the team. Where is the happy middle ground?

[Dlardrageth]

I think you might have to make more more detailed examples beyond mere name-dropping to get useful feedback. You can't really expect the majority of people on this board to be familiar with the games you named, can you?

Personally I have stayed away from the "BF series" after BFBC2, because it is not my kind of beef. So I wouldn't know what you are referring to possibly there. But then I also wouldn't be much interested in the "commander role" for myself in MWO either, heh.

[Treffies]

They haven't revealed too much about the mechanics of being a commander, so I'm withholding judgement until they give something concrete that happens in game, or how you'd build a pilot/mech around that.

[Corsair114]

Next month is, I think, Role Warfare month. Might hold some clues as to what to expect from different roles.

[Maximilian Thorn]

I am very interested in these "roles" the Devs have said since their first blogs; however, as noted above they have yet to give alot of information out yet. In fact, in Q&A 3: Info Warfare, I became a little concerned, as some of the "modules" you can insert into your Mech include basically a "commander" type package or a "scout" type package (i.e. drone launch) or a attacker/defender package (i.e. increased night vision view). The thing is...any pilot, regardless of their intended roll (commander, scout, attacker/defender) can put those modules into their own Mech. If that is the case...then why have designated roles? Why would you need a Light Mech to be the scout when you can attach a drone module to a Heavy/Assault Mech and they can launch the drone? Or, why have a commander at all, if all the Mechs on the team can have the same modules (and therefore, the same information) as the commander?

Please don't misunderstand...I want all weight classes to have their purpose. As for myself, I plan on piloting an Assault Mech and playing the "attacker" role; however, whatever that actually means (aside from the obvious)...I still don't know. I'm sure the Devs will release more information on the subject as they move forward.

[Treffies]

If I had to guess: if you put commander modules on all the mechs in a lance then there's no room for the other modules, or they won't be as effective as a dedicated commander mech.

That being said the Dragon is certainly fast enough to fill the role of heavy scout.

[Aegis Kleais]

lahyenne, on 25 January 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Nota Bene: I expect this will get more discussion from the Devs in the near future, but I'd like to see if anyone has any ideas/examples.

I am here to get your opinions, gentlemen, on this particular mechanic because I genuinely think it could make or break the game. Commanders have been in many games and filled a role similar to what they're describing. You can see it in the BF series, but I also like to point out the Half-Life mods Natural Selection and Nuclear Dawn.

What is my concern and what do I want to see the community discuss? Simple: How does it get done right?

Having just played Nuclear Dawn, the role of the commander felt very... weak. Certainly not like someone that had a commanding role in the battle. Does anyone have any ideas on how best to balance this or maybe had experience with good command roles in the past?

I personally thought Natural Selection was good, but possibly left too much in the hands of the commander. A bad CO could ruin a game, regardless of the efforts of the rest of the team. Where is the happy middle ground?

I haven't played the games you listed, I can only go off on how I envision the mechanic to work in MWO.

Traditionally, as with any good lance, the first thing it will require is practice practice practice. A lance has a flow. The commander learns what his lancemates are capable of, and through experience, finds out where they excel and where they lack.

The commander module will be a must for the commander, but I'm sure there will be modules for his subordinates that they can install which will provided less-than-commander-but-more-than-nothing data and information that the team may determine are well worth their expense.

Command can be everything from a person barking orders and getting no feedback or cooperation from his lance to a Commander whose lance follows his every poor order and pays the price for it all the way to a finely tuned group who work well with one another and excel in their own role that they play.

[DarkTreader]

One of the games that I thought had some of the best Command roles was a PS3 game called MAG. On the biggest map, it was 128 v 128, and it broke down like this:

Each map was set up as a big + , where the invading force was at the tips, and the defenders were in the center. Each arm started with 32 v 32 combat, and it got more hectic the further in they pushed, so that at the end, everyone was in the center.

Each squad of 8 had a Squad leader. Each Regiment (4 squads of 8) had a Commander.
Squad leaders and Commanders had access to different abilities, first and foremost of which was the ability to designate targets. Players on a squad would get bonus points if they assisted in taking a target designated by their squad leader. They also had the ability to do things like air strikes, UAVs for recon, artillery bombardment, repair boosts, things like that - all set on timers, and shared through all groups (so squad leaders couldn't just spam UAV recon to know where the OpFor was, or Commanders couldn't just drop barrages of artillery in the middle of the map).

I think this might be a good way for them to implement this - and it'd give a way to earn additional Loyalty Points/C-Bills. Your LC tags a target or location, you go kill it/defend it, and if successful, you gain extra LP or C-Bills.


As for the actual skills required to be a good LC or Commander? That's a tougher question.

Edited by DarkTreader, 26 January 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

To the question about why not just put a drone on the Assault mechs...most likely reason not to would be range. Sure be nice to see what's sneaking up on you, but better to see them before they get to sneak range. Or in time to set up an ambush.

[FinnMcKool]

I think we will need to get into a predetermed group, drop with folks we know and have worked/practiced with.
I guess I need to find a group myself , lone wolf is going to be tough.
will we be able to drop with our clanmates, Does the game have any mechanics for such clans or do we need to do it out side the game?
how about practice with our mates?

I liked the way mechcommander worked but cant see it in this game. or ??


remember its a cruel universe out there.

[Dakkonn]

Treffies, on 25 January 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

They haven't revealed too much about the mechanics of being a commander, so I'm withholding judgement until they give something concrete that happens in game, or how you'd build a pilot/mech around that.

This

[Godzilla Enthusiast]

Treffies, on 26 January 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

If I had to guess: if you put commander modules on all the mechs in a lance then there's no room for the other modules, or they won't be as effective as a dedicated commander mech.

That being said the Dragon is certainly fast enough to fill the role of heavy scout.

That is my plan for it. I already have a buddy lined up to use a catapult as a commander.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

DarkTreader, on 26 January 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

One of the games that I thought had some of the best Command roles was a PS3 game called MAG. On the biggest map, it was 128 v 128, and it broke down like this:

Each map was set up as a big + , where the invading force was at the tips, and the defenders were in the center. Each arm started with 32 v 32 combat, and it got more hectic the further in they pushed, so that at the end, everyone was in the center.

Each squad of 8 had a Squad leader. Each Regiment (4 squads of 8) had a Commander.
Squad leaders and Commanders had access to different abilities, first and foremost of which was the ability to designate targets. Players on a squad would get bonus points if they assisted in taking a target designated by their squad leader. They also had the ability to do things like air strikes, UAVs for recon, artillery bombardment, repair boosts, things like that - all set on timers, and shared through all groups (so squad leaders couldn't just spam UAV recon to know where the OpFor was, or Commanders couldn't just drop barrages of artillery in the middle of the map).

I think this might be a good way for them to implement this - and it'd give a way to earn additional Loyalty Points/C-Bills. Your LC tags a target or location, you go kill it/defend it, and if successful, you gain extra LP or C-Bills.


As for the actual skills required to be a good LC or Commander? That's a tougher question.

I would be exceptionally disappointed to see the Mechanics of MAG brought to MWO. MAG has the command structure because it needs a way to control the insane level of forces deployed on the map at any given moment, and having those commanders keeps things from getting out of hand. However, MWO is a small unit based game, and i have no doubt that giving bonuses for following orders would soon be abused, with people with the ability just laying down "defend this area" every 10 seconds or every time contact was met with the enemy. No, no, and NO! to any kind of special abilities like the ones you listed. If I see "commanders" calling in air strikes, artillery, and then running away in a 20 ton light to wait for recharge timers to spin back up, I will probably not play the game. This is not Call of Duty, nor MAG. Both of those games are arcade-style(not simulators), featuring respawn and run-and-gun. MechWarrior is a Simulator, and the game needs to be treated accordingly.

Thanks for your ideas, but I do not support them in the least.

[Corsair114]

Aegis Kleais™, on 26 January 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Though integral to the commander, I would love for there to be an ability for ONLY lancemates or those with COMMANDER modules through multiple team lances to share video feeds (only 1 at a time on your screen) so you can visually relay information.

That would probably cause far more lag and latency issues for the game than even voice comms might.

[DarkTreader]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 26 January 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I would be exceptionally disappointed to see the Mechanics of MAG brought to MWO. MAG has the command structure because it needs a way to control the insane level of forces deployed on the map at any given moment, and having those commanders keeps things from getting out of hand. However, MWO is a small unit based game, and i have no doubt that giving bonuses for following orders would soon be abused, with people with the ability just laying down "defend this area" every 10 seconds or every time contact was met with the enemy. No, no, and NO! to any kind of special abilities like the ones you listed. If I see "commanders" calling in air strikes, artillery, and then running away in a 20 ton light to wait for recharge timers to spin back up, I will probably not play the game. This is not Call of Duty, nor MAG. Both of those games are arcade-style(not simulators), featuring respawn and run-and-gun. MechWarrior is a Simulator, and the game needs to be treated accordingly.

Thanks for your ideas, but I do not support them in the least.

I didn't mean to imply that I wanted all of those various things in game (though there has already been mention of things like UAVs doing recon). I was just stating that, from my play experience, that was one of the few games that a) had a reason for having commanders, and b ) did it reasonably well. I do see your point about the potential for abuse, and I agree with you about that - I don't want some silly kid spamming rechargable air-strikes so he can get his 'kill streak' up any more than you do.

As far as implementation, it would need to have the particulars hammered out, but having an LC have the option to assign targets to Lancemates, or setting a rally point via the gridmap shouldn't be difficult. And if people follow orders, they get benefits.

(Edit: ********* smiley faces...)

Edited by DarkTreader, 26 January 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[Zervziel]

I'd like to see some command mechs that will help people that want to specialize in that role. Like the Cyclops or the King Crab. Then you can add in the Exterminator. It's one of my fav heavies.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I just can't see random PUGs managing to sort out things like roles let alone a commander unless there are sufficent people and a wide enough variety of mechs, module fits etc for tthe matchmaking system to do it. Or are people just going to have to sit around waiting say for someone who has specialised as a commander first to take on a "contract" (in a house) and then fill in the designated slots?

[Karyudo ds]

Corsair114, on 26 January 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

That would probably cause far more lag and latency issues for the game than even voice comms might.

Uh with most video games this is handled by rendering an additional camera or swapping to another camera. That isn't really like streaming audio at all. So I wouldn't see why it would cause as much traffic as VOIP or even really very much additional traffic period. Though I'm not 100% familar with CryEngine3...I would assume they didn't find a stupid way to do that though.

[Doogiavich]

i like how the bf2 mod project reaility made the comander role. but it helps if the units actually listen and give feed back to the comander. its not the game it will be the community. who makes this work.

Edited by Doogiavich, 26 January 2012 - 05:58 PM.

[Trireaper]

I believe this will be covered in Role Warfare month though from what I had gotten out current info, there are not going to be specific commander roles but modules that helps with people that would be in a clan and running their own lance.