155 replies to this topic

[Volkite]

Quote

Not that different huh?

Wider stance
Shorter legs
Tiny waist
Huge chest
Massive arms

Why is the stance under question now?
Not to disparage you, but have you experience with IRL combat? If you answer, that answer will determine my next post.

But right now, imagine for a moment, you've got 2 guns in your sternum and a 10-pack of missiles in your left pec. Would you not need room for them? Upper body weight means nothing to the waist, if the Hunchback's legs are fine to work with the way they're connected, then the Centurion can sit an upper torso down onto a lower torso just fine. If you're complaining about the waistline of Ornstein over here, then go on a rant about the legs of Smough (Hunchback). It'd be more justified there.

As for unrecognisable? Hah!
Before I read the name I was thinking "Centurion". My internet connection isn't that great and so pics have a habit of taking a while to load. You know, the top-down dealio? Well yeah. I recognised it.
It's not actually that hard to imagine, that an updated version of this 'mech could possibly end up like this.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Geist Null, on 30 January 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

not to get too insulting to the people that prolly worked hard drawing the earlier cents...but those are pretty amature in design. no military would ever design a mobile suit with a neck anyways. you would have moniters from multiple cameras in the pit. also, without having to worry about necks seperating heads from torsos that greatly reduces the possibility of head shots. looking at the earlier centurian thats an easy head shot to make. looking at the updated picture, only the orage faceplate could be the head shot mark.

how many times do I have to tell people, we're talking about fictitious giant stompy robots.
Armies in this universe take them...because the plot demands it!
rather than use the fallacious 'its not military hurrr' say the older versions don't match your taste.
I won't debate the feasibility of designs that are completely fictitious, I will debate why I like or don't like them -
everyone else should as well!

that said - continue fighting, I'm getting more popcorn and coming up with more points

edit:

Merovigian, on 30 January 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Why is the stance under question now?
Not to disparage you, but have you experience with IRL combat? If you answer, that answer will determine my next post.

srsly bro? you've been under fire from 40' tall, 50 ton walking death machines? if so, the PTSD must be incredible I feel for you, the FedSuns should never have launched that operation.

Merovigian, on 30 January 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

But right now, imagine for a moment, you've got 2 guns in your sternum and a 10-pack of missiles in your left pec. Would you not need room for them?

it's called 'mass-shifting' and many many many scifi universe do this - even Btech and even the new FD designs. Explain to me how the Catapult holds 240 missiles collectively in its chassis.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 30 January 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[Volkite]

Quote

mass-shifting

Touché. Well-played, sir.

As for the combat thing, it wasn't anything to the effect of HAVE YOU GONE INTO THE HELL THAT IS 'MECH BATTLE IRL!?!? NO!!!
Hilarious as the image you evoked in my head was.
But no, I mean in combat, as you fight one another, you can go about it in many ways, but a slow-moving and trying-to-be-stable stance revolving around slugging it out (as possibly would have been the case in Roman Legions, stay in formation, be ready, etc.) you widen your stance and bend the knees a bit more than normal. Granted it's not bending its knees much, but it's fine, it gives off the feel to me.
Also, after years of Muay-Thai, I've been taught to tuck my head in. It doesn't matter if you've got a big neck to allow your 'mech's head to rotate... in fact it's counter-intuitive. Getting your head up is basically asking for it to be hit.

I wonder if we're going to get a scale-model pic of the two mediums standing next to each other any time soon, because with zero reference points, I'd say it's still quite possible the Centurion is very tall. The head may not be sunken in, as the torso looks bigger than originally, so the shoulders may have been raised.
Another good thing to do if you're in a fight. Further aids in guarding your head from sidelong blows.

Instead of comparing the GLARING HERETICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THIS SHOGGOTH AND MY WAIFU MECHA-SEMPAI, or any of the arguments you actually have (edit: that was a joke by the way, not serious), consider this: Toteming.
"we want this 'mech to look like a warrior in a battle, not JUST a machine. So how do we do it?"
If it were me, and a lot of others besides, it would be to search for how that actually looks. It looks to me like it's in a fighting stance, whereas the old one, while not being bad, just doesn't look battle-ready.
If it was meant to look like a regal warrior, it could have stood to appear more like a warrior. *shrugs*

Arms being wide open are always a problem in battletech, there's little we can do about that and little most designs can do to put up their dukes across their body with any more than their forearms.

Edited by Merovigian, 30 January 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

if the atlas-bat makes more people love the designs....wail away!

[Volkite]

Oh wait, another point.
Our torso may be the vaguely cylindrical trunck of the older design, but I've seen so many superheroes and romanticised medieval-and-earlier warriors protrayed as having these massive lateral torso muscles that push their arms outward. Much like the new one.
Coupled with the aforementioned fighting stance (or at least hunch), it works.
I dunno, haters gonna hate, and people who claim they're irrefutably right until God Himself proves it to them definatively... will never change their mind.
It's a cop-out statement to feign reason in debate, afaic. But he's entitled to his opinion.
Just wish the sub-group of our demographic didn't exist, that has to rail against change.

[Felbombling]

Is it just me, or does this thread look and feel like Red Sox and Yankees fans going at it on the ESPN boards, except without all the [expletive deleted] and other creative name calling?

[Volkite]

*looks back at the past few pages, full of rage at one another and circumstantial arguments bouncing off of stubborn argumentative folk*
No. It's you.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Tsen Shang, on 30 January 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

This thing should run like a baboon. The tiny waist it has wouldn't realistically support the upper body weight. The size of the arms would put massive strain on the waist if it tried to run as the momentum swung from one side of the body to the other. If the left or right half of this mech hit something, it would wrench apart.

What the...
...It's not the waist which supports the weight of a humanoid form, the legs aren't attached to it, it's the internal structure of the pelvis they're attached to, and which sustains the entire structure of the body and all its weight.
People are effectively crippled by damage to this structure.

The equivalent of the human pelvis, in this 'Mech, is rather massive, in fact, almost as wide as its shoulders and certainly sturdier, and should easily support its weight.

As for swaying...
...The very purpose of Neurohelmets is for 'Mechs to simulate the balance of the human body and either sway accordingly or to compensate for imbalances with gyros; all 'Mechs possess a natural sway which should be, yes, like that of a primate, especially for humanoid designs.
Not even gyros compensate for this.

Perhaps the books make no mention of swaying, much like the games don't - that's because, ultimately, this is fiction, whether scientific or not, and such freedoms, such as ignoring natural sway and imbalance, can and probably should be taken.
Even then, I don't see how your critique, especifically, is accurate.

Edit.
You may have been trolling, in which case, I'm not mad at all, just surprised.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 30 January 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[Ravn]

You went from a little bit on edge in your first post to outright hostility by page 8. It looks similar but different. That's the whole premise of an enhancement or reboot. I love the new design. I think it should have been the original design if not just to keep the rampant trolling from going on in this thread.

Edited by Ravn, 30 January 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[Red Beard]

Alex Iglasias has more talent in his left testicle than most people will even read about in their lifetime. While I am too intelligent to pilot the Centurion, I do love the new look. I honestly cannot see the appeal of the old Centurion. It kinda looks like a 1970's Battlestar Galactica doll.

[Chembot]

First thing that popped into my mind when I saw it is that is looks more like a Clint. It seems to be what the Centurion 2 would be.. The logical upgrade of an old design to a more practical one after the 3060's in the same flavor as the project Phoenix mechs.

Don't get me wrong, the art is brilliant. But I have to agree that the shape is incorrect for that mech as of 3049. A Solaris suped up custom in the likes of Yen Low Wang, for sure.

I also believe not every single mech has to look completely awesome.. Weird shape, lanky, stout, boxy mechs are other manufacturers attempts at building machines differently to their competitors. Yes the old TRO's are dated in their art, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.. Original mech shape can still be awesomised, as was clearly done with all the previous mechs so far.

[Euphor Kell]

unimpressed at the new Centurion.

As is stated, the removal of the neck and head has implications in other areas, not only asthetically, but also structurally.
first off, it removes the outline we have all come to know and love from the original, and enough has been said on this point already i want to point out other things of interest:
moving the "Cockpit" down into the chest provides additional enginerring concerns with respect to a combat machine, yes, the "head" is now more protected, but the tradeoff?
increased proximity to the fusion engine resulting in higher heat levels for the pilot
decreased room in the CT to mount said fusion engine AND the ML's
More complex setup for an escape pod.
decreased room to mount operator controls and feedback (screens, sensors, indication lights)
Reduced visability

now, operating heavy machinery myself, the last point is critical. in combat scenarios speed and reaction is EVERYTHING, relying on external cameras, sensors and internal displays adds lag time to your reactions, not to mention the problem when electronics fail, and on a battlefield cris-crossed with Emerald radiation, crulean lightning, ECM, ECCM and all the other pleasent stuff that goes with war, you want backup plans for when things just don't WORK, actually seeing the enemy through plas-steel canopy is the only real assurance you have when thigs get tough, the option to have a movable "Head" becomes more and more desireable.

now i know this is a universe where some things just don't make sense to us considering an extra thousand years of tech but still...

the one thing that always irked me about Mechwarrior in general is that the mechs are WAYYYYYY too light for their looks, most should be about double, if not triple their weight, considering their size and shape, and then along comes this new centurion, and its BEEFED UP? sure, it looks cooler and all, but would that thing really weigh 50-tonnes (55 even?) its about the same size as the machines i operate (or would be if it laid down) and they are between 90-120 tonnes depending on configuration, i know in the extra years till the star league we'll probably find materials that are lighter then what we use now, but it just still seems too bulky for its weight class.

[Chuckie]

Euphor Kell, on 31 January 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

the one thing that always irked me about Mechwarrior in general is that the mechs are WAYYYYYY too light for their looks, most should be about double, if not triple their weight, considering their size and shape, and then along comes this new centurion, and its BEEFED UP? sure, it looks cooler and all, but would that thing really weigh 50-tonnes (55 even?) its about the same size as the machines i operate (or would be if it laid down) and they are between 90-120 tonnes depending on configuration, i know in the extra years till the star league we'll probably find materials that are lighter then what we use now, but it just still seems too bulky for its weight class.

Ahh.. I am SURE metallurgy will have improved over the next thousand years, even more so than the last 100..

Not to mention improvements in Carbon Fiber and other "fabrics", then there is the motor technology, etc.. etc.. etc..

Edited by Chuckie, 31 January 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Omigir]

The battle of the ages... Centurion /dance [microtransaction] off! (if you cant afford the microtransaction you can take 50 cents over to the DDR down by the local arcade.

[Sesambrot]

Has anyone else noticed that we're pretty much running in circles here?

May I sum up what's going on here:
1. OP said this can't be a Centurion because it bears too few resemblance to TRO (which had quite limited support to begin with)
--->
2. People coming in saying that a. the Mech still has the most remarking features of a Centurion (humanoid, mohawk, typical arms) and b. it's not that big of a deal!
And srsly, if the neck was a remarking feature, then why isn't this a prolem with the Atlas as well?
--->
3. OP starts to get nitpicky, points out all the little differences between MWO and TRO art (I thought this was supposed to be about the neck originally???)
--->
4. People try to tell him that this is not as big of a deal as he seems to think it is
--->
5. back to 1.

And that over 8 pages now, at which point most of the "supporters" have dropped out of the discussion anyways and all that happens now is that new people come in here who disagree with the OP.

Tsen Shang, this is nothing personal, but by now you should have noticed that you're running against brick walls!
This is not about who's right and who's wrong, it never has been! Over the course of this topic, it seems to have become clear that your oppinion is that of a minority, and at some point you'll just have to accept that, whether you like it or not. Being "presistent" like that is not going to help at all!
If the redesign was as bad as you say, then more people would speak up and "demand" it to be changed. Which is the only scenario I can imagine in which it would be changed by the devs at this point.
Excuse me, but if you can't listen to reason or "accept defeat", I pitty you!
This may be your oppinion, and there's nothing worng with it, but if people don't agree with it, being as vocal and presistent as you are, will not change that!

For the sake of peace, just deal with it!

[Mason Grimm]

Apparently I need to go back through all 8 pages of this and read one post at a time.

Ban-hammers for EVERYONE!!! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

EDIT:



I think we've just about covered everyone getting their "I'm right" and "No I'm right, you are a doofus" type posts in there so we can shut this one down.

Discussion > Arguement = Math According to Grimm

Edited by Mason Grimm, 31 January 2012 - 05:44 AM.