55 replies to this topic

[fallonsky]

well as far as i know the range of the guns is so that after that range it jest goes away. why not have it so that guns lose damage really fast after that range like if you have a lazer with a range of 800 and you fire it. it wont jest go away after 800 feet but will lose damage such as if it had 10 damage at 1000 it already has only 5 at 12000 it has 1 and after that it does no damage.

edit~not 12000 1200

Edited by fallonsky, 30 January 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[Nathiel Surefire]

Other games have modeled the "damage falloff" of certain weapons in the past. It all depends on what PGI feels is appropriate to make the game as fun as possible.

[Liam]

If damage falloff will be implemented I hope there will be also increase in the range of specific weapons
(compensation to damage falloff). Otherwise the average effective range will be decreased.

I would like to see it in MWO. Simulation like feeling:
know your weapon, know how to use it
more skill and tactic potential.

Edited by Liam, 28 January 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Liam, on 28 January 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

If damage falloff will be implemented I hope there will be also increase in the range of specific weapons
(compensation to damage falloff). Otherwise the average effective range will be decreased.

I would like to see it in MWO. Simulation like feeling:
know your weapon, know how to use it
more skill and tactic potential.

I think the OP was speaking of Fall Off AFTER the Max range of current weapons is reached. Keep the damage at max.range as is (no need to re-invent the wheel so to speak) but after that, the drop off might be 3 points per 100M.

Given what is expected to be the Max Mechs in any one Match (12x12 hopeful) the need for damage to exceed base ranges may be more calculations than are required.

Does hitting that Hill, some 300M behind that Medium Mech after a miss, for 3 Pts. of damage, really matter?

If you hit your target, what is behind it, matters little.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 January 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Hador]

I think the problem of maximum range without some kind of "falloff" after that is like that:

-You hit a Mech at 1-300m for full damage with a certain weapon. -- all fine and nice

-The enemy mech is at 301m, your laser round evaporates, your bullets fall to the ground or whatever mysteriously between 300 and 301m.

Exact ranges work nice on a TT, but imo not so much in a game like this.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

Max damage up to specific range then fast fall off after that.......otherwise little guys are going to have a hard time running away....boom boom stomp stomp.

[MaddMaxx]

Hador, on 28 January 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

I think the problem of maximum range without some kind of "falloff" after that is like that:

-You hit a Mech at 1-300m for full damage with a certain weapon. -- all fine and nice

-The enemy mech is at 301m, your laser round evaporates, your bullets fall to the ground or whatever mysteriously between 300 and 301m.

Exact ranges work nice on a TT, but imo not so much in a game like this.

Then where do you draw the line as a Max. distance the Laser imparts Max damage? There has to be a range, and BT has them in place. If the Dev change view distances to unlimited then sure Lasers should go forever and some atmospheric calcs would deal with power to range damage #'s. Until then, and we don't know they won't do that, as is BT is cool for now.

One assumes Lasers are given Max ranges as the Ballistics absolutely have them. Why would anyone ever take any Ballistic weapon when all Lasers can hit at MAX "visual ranges" and always deal Max. damage.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 January 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Hador]

Never talked of having any weapon with unlimited range, I just dislike the thought of having a (any) weapon doing maximum damage at xx metres and doing zero damage at xx+1 metres.

Max damage at max range, then fast degradation and after that somewhere just nothing

Edited by Hador, 28 January 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

Hador, on 28 January 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Never talked of having any weapon with unlimited range, I just dislike the thought of having a (any) weapon doing maximum damage at xx metres and doing zero damage at xx+1 metres.

Max damage at max range, then fast degradation and after that somewhere just nothing

We are talking about Lasers here right? If a Laser beam is sent out and hits nothing but air, how far does it really go? Setting fall off rates is a subjective and likely moot discussion. Surely a scientific Paper has been done do describe all that funky wavelenght stuff.

[Hador]

Not sure what you are talking about but I am talking about the mechanics of a game.

Wouldn't be the right person to discuss real life functionality of a laser anyways.

[Zervziel]

MaddMaxx, on 28 January 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

We are talking about Lasers here right? If a Laser beam is sent out and hits nothing but air, how far does it really go? Setting fall off rates is a subjective and likely moot discussion. Surely a scientific Paper has been done do describe all that funky wavelenght stuff.

How it acts in reality is immaterial. As you may have noticed we can definitely see the lasers in game and even the most powerful lasers we have now don't light up like that.

I like the idea of damage fall off after the effective ranges. You can still hit something with the weapon just don't expect it to do too much. lasers can lose beam cohesion and gauss and autocannon rounds will drop off due to air friction and gravity. Missiles are already limited by their fuel.

Quite frankly it should and can work considering MWLL has already implemented something similar and it works quite well.

[MaddMaxx]

Zervziel, on 28 January 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

How it acts in reality is immaterial. As you may have noticed we can definitely see the lasers in game and even the most powerful lasers we have now don't light up like that.

I like the idea of damage fall off after the effective ranges. You can still hit something with the weapon just don't expect it to do too much. lasers can lose beam cohesion and gauss and autocannon rounds will drop off due to air friction and gravity. Missiles are already limited by their fuel.

Quite frankly it should and can work considering MWLL has already implemented something similar and it works quite well.

Fine, and it adds what exactly to the gameplay? So you might get a lucky "weak" laser hit on a secondary target after a Miss on the primary target? Or a AC round goes Ping off another secondary target for no damage?

The question then becomes. Why even bother, unless it has some sufficent impact on actual gameplay?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 January 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Hador]

MaddMaxx, on 28 January 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Fine, and it adds what exactly to the gameplay? So you might get a lucky "weak" laser hit on a secondary target after a Miss on the primary target? Or a AC round goes Ping off another secondary target for no damage?

The question then becomes. Why even bother, unless it has some sufficent impact on actual gameplay?

I think the question is not abouta weak hit on a second target (though that may also be the case), but rather that when you fire at an enemy at e.g. 299 metres and he makes a 2m step backwards before your shots hit. Don't think they should just vanish at 300m (or whatever range the weapon has).

[MaddMaxx]

Hador, on 28 January 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think the question is not abouta weak hit on a second target (though that may also be the case), but rather that when you fire at an enemy at e.g. 299 metres and he makes a 2m step backwards before your shots hit. Don't think they should just vanish at 300m (or whatever range the weapon has).

Fair enough, but with one small exception. The discussion on Lasers seems to indicate that yes, they are HitScan based weapons. That means that when you pull the trigger, the target is hit "instantaneously", or before it can move further. If the pilot pulls the trigger when the target is out of Range, that is on the Pilot, not the weapon.

The real debate about lasers seems to be whether or not all of a Lasers damage should be applied at time of impact or should a Pilot have to maintain the beam on the target for some period of time lasting as long as 1-1.5 seconds?

What is your thought on that?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 January 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[Yeach]

As I mentioned in another thread?
What about increase the hex size from 30m to 40 or 50m?
All weapons ranges, weapons speed would all be proportionally increased so everything stays relative.

IMO it doesnt really change the TT rules, just makes the ranges of the weapons more believable.

Edited by Yeach, 29 January 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[Yeach]

MaddMaxx, on 28 January 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Fair enough, but with one small exception. The discussion on Lasers seems to indicate that yes, they are HitScan based weapons. That means that when you pull the trigger, the target is hit "instantaneously", or before it can move further. If the pilot pulls the trigger when the target is out of Range, that is on the Pilot, not the weapon.

The real debate about lasers seems to be whether or not all of a Lasers damage should be applied at time of impact or should a Pilot have to maintain the beam on the target for some period of time lasting as long as 1-1.5 seconds?

What is your thought on that?

What is hitscan?
If it means more calculations and results in more lag then I'm not in favour of it.

But I do like the idea that the lasers registers after the 0.5 second after you hit the target and not when you point and push the trigger.
I imagine lasers and PPCs that the faster but weaker particles of light reaches the target first but a capaciter holds back the more intense slower particles (which provides the damage) and release it after its charges. Think bombast laser in MW4.

[Strattus]

I like the idea of damage fade past the maximum ranges, and I think there has been some great discussion on why..... However, I'd like to point out, too, discussing handling of the ballistics weapons differently from the beam weapons is only way to make sense of this.

I would like to see beam weapons fade after maximum range (but maybe only for 50 m or so). This makes sense, as ther could be several technical reasons (focus, etc...) for reduced concentration of energy.

Missiles should be given minimum and maximum ranges hard and fast with a constant damage value for the range. As been stated previously, the fuel in the projectiles explains this.

As for the other ballistics (gauss, ac, etc...) I'd like to see a sliding scale for damage. If you haven't ever seen one, just google a ballistics chart for rifle rounds, and you'll see what I'm talking about. As range increases, the amount of energy delivered decreases. It's just how it works. Balancing would have to take place, and I know the calculations would get a bit complicated, but I'm sure that with the proper balancing, this would only enhance how the game is played. Let's face it... You SHOULD get rewarded for using this particular type of weapon at a closer range.

At the end of the day, I guess it's up to PGI....

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

MaddMaxx, on 28 January 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Fine, and it adds what exactly to the gameplay? So you might get a lucky "weak" laser hit on a secondary target after a Miss on the primary target? Or a AC round goes Ping off another secondary target for no damage?

The question then becomes. Why even bother, unless it has some sufficent impact on actual gameplay?

You just refuse to listen to what people are saying.

First, Hador is talking about all weapons having a falloff, not just lasers, which you seem hell-bent on for some reason. Second: Nobody ever said anything about missing. The point is not having an invisible wall between you and your target, where at 'X' maximum range you hit for 10 damage, and at range 'X+1inch' the beam/slug magically disappears. I would like to see falloff implemented, where perhaps every 10-25 meters following max range 1 point of damage is lost (and then when 0 damage is reached, it would make sense that the slug/beam lost enough velocity/cohesion to be rendered harmless). Adds some realism and gives a slight counter to skirting maximum ranges, and gives a little balance to standard and ER weaponry.

[VYCanis]

way i could see it working

lasers fade off in damage amount. The degree by which they fade off depends on their size, small lasers experience drastic damage falloff quickly, large lasers not so much. ER models push the optimal range out and decrease the damage falloff/distance rate.

autocannons don't have damage bleedoff (HEAT shells deal their damage through their warhead, their speed is irrelevant) however, past their optimal range they start to drop in addition to having spread to contend with at very long ranges.

gauss rifles have damage falloff.

machineguns have damage falloff but also get a range boost. (really 90 meters is just dumb)

missiles don't get damage falloff, but lose accuracy and most of their tracking the farther they go past optimal range.

[zverofaust]

I really like the idea of realistic weapon projectile physics. Lasers lose damage over range due to interference from atmospheric particulates and beam widening; gauss rifle shots slowly lose velocity and do less damage; PPCs both lose velocity and energy cohesion; and missiles run out of fuel. Autocannons are a different matter; they seem to fire some variation of HEAT/HESH warhead and so would not be limited in damage by range (perhaps a unique property of the weapon). Instead, their slower velocities should lead to high ballistic trajectories making accurate fire beyond their effective ranges much harder. All in all I think CryEngine 3 is fully capable of doing some good physics, and I would be really disappointed if we had any weapons magically disappearing at the end of their range. I always found it silly in MWLL when I'd see some laser-armed Mech trying to shoot his lasers at me while I was out of range, and see these bright beams just end right in front of me like little fingers desperately trying to touch me.