76 replies to this topic

[Aznpersuasion89]

CSHubert, on 13 August 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Agreed that the HD7770 dont eat much power, but you dont get much from it either... GTX gets into a price dump now. I just bought an Inno 3d gtx 570 for 260 $... in a month or two geforce is gonna be cheapest and best choice

i can guarantee that for mwo the sapphire vapor x ghz edition will play MWO on high very well when coupled with an amd 975. use that as a reference (hope im not breaking NDA)

[CSHubert]

I agree with you on the MWO... (Im in that NDA risk zone now)... Im refering to next years games and so on...

[Aznpersuasion89]

oh for sure, thats why i upgraded to a 7850. still only uses one power connector so i can use it on a little psu like me. and at the moment its very good (barely reaches 50% gpu load) and overclocks like a champ. i got mine to be faster then a 7870.

[Vulpesveritas]

CSHubert, on 13 August 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yeah well thats religion... I too have more of that here
http://www.tomshardw...,2932.html?prod[5393]=on&prod[5703]=on&prod[5451]=on&prod[5440]=on&prod[5700]=on
...But does it matter ? Gtx 550 ti is out of date or as nvidia says "End Of Life", HD7770 is a cheap card and you get what you pay for. Buttom line is if it can handle MWO and other games he will play.
I think it pays off to give that little extra money to get a good card and have it for a while longer. Im replacing my old gtx 285 that has done its job for quite some time now. At the time I got it it was a little more expensive than most, but it has out-lived many of my friends GPUs, so in the long run I actually saved some bucks by not buying the cheapest...

Not quite sure what you're saying here, given that the chart you just linked shows the 7770 to be ~25% faster than the 550ti... when the cheapest 550ti is $120, vs the cheapest Radeon HD 7770 is $125, and the 7770 is more energy efficient too. Honestly, who in their right mind would opt for the 550ti there?

Just my point.

[Osski]

CCC Dober, on 13 August 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

OP: Sorry for that, I felt that 700 was quite a lot for a pc and you can really expect some quality components for that kind of money. I was rather shocked to discover what you went with instead. If this was a notebook, then I wouldn't be totally surprised because good offers in that price range are rare indeed. Desktops however ... oh well. On that note, Vulpesveritas gives sound advice and is probably your best in the New World

Nevertheless, I'll find out what 700 can do for you in the Old World, which should roughly translate to what you can get in the New World =)

P.S. Here's what I found

CPU: i5-2500 (4 x 3.3 GHz) = 182€ (note: i7-2600K got less bang for the buck at 268€)
FAN: Arctic Cooling Freezer Xtreme Rev.2 = 29€
GPU: MSI GTX 560 Ti = 202€
RAM: Corsair 8GB DDR3 = 45€
PSU: Corsair 430W CX = 44€
HDD: Seagate 1TB SATA 6Gb/s = 82€
CASE: Xigmatek Asgard Midi Tower = 35€
MOBO: Gigabyte GA-PA-67A-D3-B3 = 69€
---------------------------------------------------------
Total: 688€

I'd recommend to salvage your optical drive, mouse, keyboard and OS as usual. No need to pay twice for stuff that still works IMO.

P.P.S. You really don't want to overclock (liquid cooler hints at that) with a 350W PSU. Besides, your GPU would still be the bottleneck and a very slim one at that. All the extra CPU power would do is simply raise your power consumption, if your PSU does not simply burn out or hopefully switch off when it starts overheating. There's simply no headroom for overclocking and the 620 (GPU) is going to spoil your fun regardless. If you really want to overclock, then I recommend this link as a starting point for your PSU selection.

Very helpful, thanks! I will look into these components..are those newegg prices? Also I can't seem to find that motherboard after searching newegg...

I'm not gonna go with overclocking because I have no experience with it, and I'm really just not that hardcore. The liquid cooling is a free "upgrade" (but is it really an upgrade?), so I slapped it on as a matter of course, thinking it was just naturally better than a standard heat sink.

I had considered the factory overclocking that is available through this site, but my fear is that I'll have to do something to the system later on that will require me to know about overclocking and I won't be able to handle it easily. I'm just not the kinda guy that likes to have my head stuck in this stuff all day long. My immediate desire is to plug it in and play it and just know enough to upgrade it later to keep it on pace for a lil while longer if need be. So, usually I don't mind upgrading a card later; when I've bought PC's in the past I have usually bought the mid-range gpu card at the time, and then upgraded later, but I do make it a point not to skimp on the motherboard and CPU.

I'd love to salvage stuff out of my current computer, but my plans are to keep it around as a business computer, while the new one will be strictly for gaming and such, so I'll need to keep all the components around. Again I do need Windows 7 as I'm still on XP.

Edited by Osski, 13 August 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[feetjai]

what other say about the Power supply that you should take at least an 80+ rating is true.
On top of that, you should calculate how much Watt your system is going to use in total.
You should draw 80% of it's total from a PSU, not too low, not too high. Then it will convert the energy the most efficient, without creating too much heat. That saves you some $$ at the long run...

Go for the respectable PSU manufacturers: like cosair, etc....
Or look at tomshardware.com for reviews...

wish you lots of fun with your new system! But do think about your own health and interlectual progress =)
Life NOT only gaming. cheers! (sadly lots of people just died after playing days...... sad but true...)

Edited by feetjai, 13 August 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Osski]

So no matter what decision I make here, I very much appreciate all your help and I do feel a lot more informed now about what the options are, at least. I'm very glad I asked

[Nufsed]

As a matter of interest I'm running MWO at very high graphics settings, res 1920x1080, on an AMD Phenom x6 3.20GHZ with a GTS 450 1gig and 8gig on board, oh and it's 64bit win 7.

[RooftopVoter]

Osski, on 12 August 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Great, I've saved this configuration and will sleep on it!

You mentioned Crossfire...that means sticking 2 gpu's in the thing, correct? How complicated is that? Is it a matter of just plugging the new one in and making sure it has updated drivers?

Yes Crossfire means sticking a 2nd gpu in it. Its fairly simple but a couple things to keep in mind. You have to have video cards that match(not quite exactly (ie speed differences can be accomodated) but you want the same generation card ie. 6770 and 6770 or 6870 and 6870 not 6850 and 6770 or GTX560ti and GTX560ti if you go nvidia sli if the mobo handles sli) the next thing and a very big one with crossfire or sli is air flow in the case you really have to keep things cool with a second gpu they generate the most heat in modern gaming systems. SVC.com has 120mm coolermaster 110cfm(cubic feet per minute) fans(blue) for $4.99 huge bargain I would remove stock case fans and stick all of those you can in for crossfire. BTW thats about as cheap as you can get great airflow for there are fans that do 130-150 or larger cfm but they start at about $40 apiece(prohibitively expensive). Everyone has already steered you in the right direction the only other thing I would consider to save money would be going to an AMD cpu 8 core or the older FX 6 core the top of the line cpu for either of those are both cheap and plenty powerful. Oh last thing I noticed you said that the machine you built yourself had wires hanging everywhere and such and you said that you have an older cyberpower machine, look at the cabling job in it and copy there are also guides on the web with cabling tricks and tips to clean up a rats nest of cables zip ties are cheap and hiding extra cables(such as off the psu) is fairly easy I'd suggest laying out each cable without tying it down just to see if you like the looks and airflow try it different ways under the mobo or behind drive bays ect until you find what works best for you then tie the suckers down. Good luck with your new system regardless of what you end up with.

[Osski]

Very helpful RooftopVoter, thank you!!

[Osski]

Okay, I think I may be getting close now that I (may have) have mustered up the courage to build my own.

Here's what I've got now, after taking into account all of your advice (I basically ripped off the basics from Vulpes' builds of the week and went from there), for $703 at Newegg after $55 of mail-in rebates and $10 shipping:




COUGAR Solution Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M700 RS-700-AMBA-D3 700W ATX12V V2.3 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready power supply

ASRock 970 EXTREME3 AM3+ AMD 970 motherboard

AMD FX-4100 Zambezi 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) Socket AM3+ 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor

XFX HD-687A-ZHFC Radeon HD 6870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 graphics card

Western Digital Caviar Blue WD5000AAKX 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" hard drive

Crucial 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3

LG DVD Burner Black SATA Model GH24NS90 - OEM

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit

LG DVD Burner Black SATA Model GH24NS90 - OEM

Scythe SY1225SL12SH 120mm "Slipstream" Case Fan (the case only has one)

(and a free copy of Dirt 3! ugh)





So just a couple concerns:

-Do I need to bother with the extra case fan for 11 bucks?

-If I'm not mistaken that 700w power supply wouldn't support another vid card later if I wanted to Crossfire another in, correct?

-Any conflicts I am not seeing?

-Any opportunities to dramatically improve (particularly the motherboard as there are a few negative reviews about malfunctions, though there are also lots of positive reviews) for very few dollars in the most crucial components?



And then I'll leave yall alone

Edited by Osski, 13 August 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[CCC Dober]

Osski, on 13 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Very helpful, thanks! I will look into these components..are those newegg prices? Also I can't seem to find that motherboard after searching newegg...
...
I had considered the factory overclocking that is available through this site, but my fear is that I'll have to do something to the system later on that will require me to know about overclocking and I won't be able to handle it easily. I'm just not the kinda guy that likes to have my head stuck in this stuff all day long. My immediate desire is to plug it in and play it and just know enough to upgrade it later to keep it on pace for a lil while longer if need be. So, usually I don't mind upgrading a card later; when I've bought PC's in the past I have usually bought the mid-range gpu card at the time, and then upgraded later, but I do make it a point not to skimp on the motherboard and CPU.

I'd love to salvage stuff out of my current computer, but my plans are to keep it around as a business computer, while the new one will be strictly for gaming and such, so I'll need to keep all the components around. Again I do need Windows 7 as I'm still on XP.

Naw, can't really tell what these components cost exactly in the States, but my past experiences have been that the Dollar-Euro conversion does not really apply to hardware like this. It's much closer to 1:1 than what the exchange rates would indicate. I can dig something up on newegg, but I really don't expect a different outcome. A couple Dollars give or take maybe, let's see. Btw, Windows 7 Home 64 Bit goes for like 60€ over here, which seems to be rather cheap.
The Motherboard is not exactly top notch, that's true. Given your budget, I wouldn't dare to blow 100+ bucks on a decent one. There are other components that benefit way more from such a hefty 'donation'. The CPU may seem like a questionmark, but it can keep up very well with the mentioned i7 model in Crysis2, being a quad-core as well.

If you manage to dig up some of the 'secondary' components somewhere else, like case, mouse, keyboard and optical drive, you can keep the costs down quite a bit, which in turn enables you to buy that elusive OS you mentioned =)
This stuff usually eats money for no reason, so I didn't give it top priority. Might be a bad habit, but I kept my rigs going like this since I was a kid =)

[Osski]

In retrospect now that I've decided to build I don't know why I didn't kinda just go with Vulpes' $600 "build of the week" stickied on these forums...I added the extra fan not realizing that the fan he'd already picked out had extras already, for a small example.

But I think it's just minor tweaks as you said at this point CCC...doesn't seem too bad for the price, right?

Oh and this Windows is typically $80 USD, and I want 2 computers, darnit I figure that a whole other computer may be useful for either my "studio" or as a cash register for a business one day soon, so I'll just buck up for the extra components for this one.

Edited by Osski, 13 August 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[CCC Dober]

Yeah, Vulpe definitely knows how to squeeze the most performance out of a Dollar, that's for sure ^^
Personally I'd steer clear of AMD+Radeon and although this sounds negative, it is based on too many years of experience with my very own AMD+Radeon builds that were severely limited in terms of budget. The moment a new game came out I knew with absolute certainty that comparable Nvidia and Intel hardware would get the best out of them for not apparent reason. I've ended up paying less for the supposedly same performance, only to regret it later. Things like this obviously never change, but they teach you the right lessons.

[silentD11]

CCC Dober, on 13 August 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yeah, Vulpe definitely knows how to squeeze the most performance out of a Dollar, that's for sure ^^
Personally I'd steer clear of AMD+Radeon and although this sounds negative, it is based on too many years of experience with my very own AMD+Radeon builds that were severely limited in terms of budget. The moment a new game came out I knew with absolute certainty that comparable Nvidia and Intel hardware would get the best out of them for not apparent reason. I've ended up paying less for the supposedly same performance, only to regret it later. Things like this obviously never change, but they teach you the right lessons.

Drivers, drivers, drivers, drivers, drivers.

AMD has gotten a lot better but ATi's drivers were notoriously horrendous. Performance issues, instability, crashes, just plain wouldn't play the game. nvidia has also been (historically) a lot more aggressive when it comes to updating multi-gpu/monitor profiles, and squeezing extra performance out of their cards. nvidia is still superior when it comes to drivers, which is one of the reasons on the professional level quadro's sell like gang busters and fireGL workstations aren't very common at all. It's one thing to have issues for gaming, it's another when it's critical work in CAD/CAM with cards that cost thousands of dollars. AMD is avoided like the plague.

Furthermore, chipsets, baring a few rare exceptions intel has always had better chipsets than AMD. Back in the day AMD relied on VIA, nvidia, and ATi for chipsets, intel did their own stuff in house. AMDs chipsets were always a gamble, you never knew. So even back when AMD was better than intel (AMD 64 era) the hassles and problems with nvidia and VIA chipsets were reason enough people steered clear of them. For what it's worth nvidia, via, and ATi chipsets for intel were also massive cluster ***** of the highest level, but intel chipsets for intel (not counting the p67 fiasco) have always been superior to anything out on the market.

A lot has changed since then and AMD has gotten a lot better now that they are building chipsets in house and have stepped up the game on the drivers, for consumer level stuff the difference might not be enough for you to care about. However at the workstation intel + nvidia is still the name of the game even if it costs several times the cash, nobody is taking risks at that level.

[Osski]

Vulpe listed this one with the AMD setup, and I had replaced it with the Radeon myself:

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814130685

It is basic the same power of card but not Radeon? Go with that instead just because it's a Geforce instead?

It is the same price.

Edited by Osski, 13 August 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Osski, on 13 August 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Okay, I think I may be getting close now that I (may have) have mustered up the courage to build my own.

Here's what I've got now, after taking into account all of your advice (I basically ripped off the basics from Vulpes' builds of the week and went from there), for $703 at Newegg after $55 of mail-in rebates and $10 shipping:




COUGAR Solution Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M700 RS-700-AMBA-D3 700W ATX12V V2.3 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready power supply

ASRock 970 EXTREME3 AM3+ AMD 970 motherboard

AMD FX-4100 Zambezi 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) Socket AM3+ 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor

XFX HD-687A-ZHFC Radeon HD 6870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 graphics card

Western Digital Caviar Blue WD5000AAKX 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" hard drive

Crucial 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3

LG DVD Burner Black SATA Model GH24NS90 - OEM

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit

LG DVD Burner Black SATA Model GH24NS90 - OEM

Scythe SY1225SL12SH 120mm "Slipstream" Case Fan (the case only has one)

(and a free copy of Dirt 3! ugh)





So just a couple concerns:

-Do I need to bother with the extra case fan for 11 bucks?

-If I'm not mistaken that 700w power supply wouldn't support another vid card later if I wanted to Crossfire another in, correct?

-Any conflicts I am not seeing?

-Any opportunities to dramatically improve (particularly the motherboard as there are a few negative reviews about malfunctions, though there are also lots of positive reviews) for very few dollars in the most crucial components?



And then I'll leave yall alone

Couple of things, first off stay away from coolermaster PSUs, they tend to not use high quality internals. Don't look at the wattage, watch the amperage.
Second, you really don't need more case fans, generally the price difference can better go to the case itself in this price range.

So without further adieu, I shall recommend a $700 build.

Case: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16811108407
Power Supply: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817151107 (enough for X-fire)
$25 cheaper: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817151096 (enough for x-fire of low power consumption cards, more than enough for everything else, put extra money towards better GPU)
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813128521
CPU: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16819103962
GPU: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814150630
Or this if you don't want refurbished; http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814121472
+$25: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814127687
+$50: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814102993
+$75: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814130685
+$100: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814102987
RAM: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820148485
HDD: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16822136769
ODD: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16827136247
OS: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16832116986
Heatsink: stock
TIM: stock

Promo Codes: EMCNBNA24 , EMCNBNA38, SSPSU15
Combo deals: http://www.newegg.co...t=Combo.1027823

MIR total: $10

Shipping fees: $10

End Total cost before labor: $675-800
Optimal price / performance opinion: Opt for smaller power supply, and the EVGA Geforce GTX 560, cost comes to $750.

Osski, on 13 August 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Vulpe listed this one with the AMD setup, and I had replaced it with the Radeon myself:

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814130685

It is basic the same power of card but not Radeon? Go with that instead just because it's a Geforce instead?

It is the same price.

A stock Geforce GTX 560 is on par with a Radeon HD 6870 but uses more power. However, EVGA has great customer service, and that card comes with a 10% factory overclock, giving better performance for the price, plus the fans are good on it.

[silentD11]

Osski, on 13 August 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Vulpe listed this one with the AMD setup, and I had replaced it with the Radeon myself:

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814130685

It is basic the same power of card but not Radeon? Go with that instead just because it's a Geforce instead?

It is the same price.

Yes, just sucks a tad more juice. But, this game is based of cryengine which is an nvidia game so it will be faster than an AMD card. Some games favor certain brands, for cryengine games it's better to buy nvidia and accept it sucks a tad more power.

[Vulpesveritas]

silentD11, on 13 August 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Yes, just sucks a tad more juice. But, this game is based of cryengine which is an nvidia game so it will be faster than an AMD card. Some games favor certain brands, for cryengine games it's better to buy nvidia and accept it sucks a tad more power.

umm... no not really. It really just depends on what price range you're at. CryENGINE 3 seems to love the Radeon HD 7000 series, and sub-$100 AMD cards are still faster than Nvidia competing cards.



http://www.guru3d.co...0-soc-review/20

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 13 August 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[Osski]

Vulpes, you are the man, sir. I'm about to hit the Secure Checkout button at $750.62 (before $40 in rebates, even!) after deciding on your best power/price balance opinion, which you quoted at $750.

So here I go, I'll try to get it together myself and do it better this time.

Thanks all for your opinions, I now feel like I'm gonna get something really worthwhile after utilizing the knowledge and wisdom of the tech junkies out there