140 replies to this topic

[ice trey]

GreenHell, on 05 November 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

They do not go mach 17.6... That's ridiculous. They'd be in orbit!

Isn't that just because Battlespace doesn't support non-missile weapons that take multiple turns to reach a target? Shouldn't Autocannons have a muzzle velocity of roughly the same speed, then?

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Autocannon ranges vary by rating and type.
In any case, it goes faster than what's good for a realistic ballistics model.

In Space Maps, one turn takes up 60 seconds (six ground/atmospheric turns), and each hex represents 18km (500m in atmospheric, 30m on ground). A Gauss Rifle has a range of 20 hex in space (20×18km=360km).
Also, only capital-scale (tele-operated) missiles take multiple turns to reach a target, I think.
An LRM salvo will hit within the same turn its fired (same range as a Gauss Rifle).
The weapons don't take the full 60 seconds to hit the target either.
Its possible that the Gauss takes 15 seconds to hit, the AC might take 30 seconds to hit and the LRM might take 45 seconds to hit the target.

[CaveMan]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 05 November 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

Trust me, they do.
Cray and the other mathheads @ CBT forums did the math.
They also did the maths to see if a 'mech could survive orbital re-entry (only the Great Turtle can, btw, if its lucky).

They may have done math, but that doesn't mean they aren't wrong. Garbage in, garbage out, as the programmers say. There are numerous places throughout the novels, rulebooks, sourcebooks, etc. that give velocity ranges for projectiles, and those numbers are much more conventional. Aerotech is simply wrong, and a flawed game system to boot. And it is, believe me. It's the worst space rules system I've ever seen.

Some dude on a forum is not an authority (yes, I realize that applies to me too). Unless one of the actual game creators comes in here and says "yes AC projectiles canonically travel at orbital reentry speeds", that info is bogus.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Cray pretty much *is* the authority on such matter @ CBT-Fora.
Also, novels contradict each-other on various accounts.

[GreenHell]

If the Gauss rifle fired projectiles at that velocity, then they would have infinite range. It just isn't possible for them to be THAT fast.
I remember someone saying in a different thread that Gauss rounds travel at mach 4. Not 17.5...

[CaveMan]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 05 November 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

Cray pretty much *is* the authority on such matter @ CBT-Fora.
Also, novels contradict each-other on various accounts.

I'm familiar with Cray. I don't care.

You're still insisting that a fan interpretation of a single screwy game rule from a spinoff product overrides 25 years of fiction, weapon descriptions in several of the rulebooks, gameplay in the core rules, and most importantly common sense and physics itself. It's absurd.

[Steadfast]

tigerwolf753, on 01 November 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

World of Tanks, the ARMA series, and Theatre of War all feature realistic ballistic models accounting for armor thickness, angle of impact, ammo type, velocity, etc. so I don't believe that it is unfeasible to implement in Mechwarrior from the perspective of CPU constraints. Modern computers are more than powerful enough to calculate at least basic ballistics.

Yah, that maybe. But the designers of our beloved Mechs have NOT thought them 'mechs as anything than beeing cool. They most certainly will not have thought about angles that deflect rounds. So, why should we now? I for one don't much care for that, just to let you know. For me it is enough if we have those old hit locations back and that they work as intended.
~S~
Daniel

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Well, if we assume that a Gauss Slug takes 15 seconds to hit its target 360km away, we'd be looking at close to mach 70, if my math isn't too far off. (360km in 15 seconds is 1.440km/minute is 86.400km/hour, divide by 1.236 (speed of sound in km/h) is 69.9.)
Its a pity I can't find the discussion anymore @ CBT.
Even *if* the Gauss takes the full 60 seconds to hit (which it doesn't compared to other weapons) we'd still be looking at Mach ~17.5.
And that assumes a frictionless environment (which not even space is). Did find a thread about the energy of laser weapons which touches the Gauss subject a bit here.

For the record, XTRO: Marik mentions that the Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle has its shells fired in the hypervelocity range (Mach ~8.8 at the minimum). Or hypersonic at the minimum (Still Mach 5+) for regular Gauss Rifles.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 05 November 2011 - 02:14 PM.

[CaveMan]

A Gauss rifle projectile going Mach 70 (24,000 m/s) would impact with something like 36 GJ, or the approximate energy of 8.6 tonnes of TNT. That's a very small nuclear weapon. As fun as it would be to lob those at the enemy, I just don't buy it, particularly since you can't clear a forest hex in CBT with a Gauss rifle, which 8.6 tonnes of TNT would certainly do. At least at Mach 5, it's only equivalent to 43 kg of TNT.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Bottom line is still that the slug travels fast enough to justify it being a hitscan weapon.

[UncleKulikov]

I'm fine with non-artillery Ballistic weapons being hitscan. It would even the field a bit when comparing ballistic to energy.

[Erhardt]

CaveMan, on 05 November 2011 - 02:03 AM, said:

Just be careful not to be hit by your own rounds when they circle the planet and come back down from orbit.

I LOL'ed.

CaveMan, on 05 November 2011 - 02:03 AM, said:

This is to say nothing of the recoil involved. A 125kg Gauss slug that was projected to Mach 40 over a 4m barrel would require an acceleration force of 2.72 giganewtons and a total impulse of 1,650,000 kg-m/s. Thanks to the law of conservation of momentum and Newton's third law, your 100-ton BattleMech would be accelerated in the opposite direction by 16m/s. I.e., it would fly backward by 6 hexes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there shouldn't be any recoil on a Gauss slug? Isn't it propelled out of the weapon by magnetic accelleration down the length of the barrel? Basically being "sucked out" the business-end, rather than being blown out like AC shells, hence no recoil?

CaveMan, on 05 November 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

A Gauss rifle projectile going Mach 70 (24,000 m/s) would impact with something like 36 GJ, or the approximate energy of 8.6 tonnes of TNT.

And that's assuming it somehow didn't vaporize from friction with the air before reaching the target. Military fighter jets have titanium leading-edges just to keep from burning up at paltry Mach 3+ speeds. A ferrous-nickle slug doesn't stand a chance at Mach 70.

Alizabeth Aijou, on 05 November 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

Bottom line is still that the slug travels fast enough to justify it being a hitscan weapon.

Bingo and +1 internets.

[Phades]

Not to discredit the concept of what is being put forward here, since it is a neat idea, but this is a game that involves lasers. Lasers could really give a rat's behind as it cuts through the object intercepting it which angle it is striking on. Plasma? Same deal.

There literally is no reason to handicap ballistic weapons more than they already are.

[Nebfer]

Here's the run down, I have found some 55 or so quotes pertaining to the velocity of a Gauss Rifle. Of these about 40 of them mention hypersonic (in the case of the improved heavy Gauss hypervelocity, which AFAIK is above 2km/s). Both the Heavy and regular Gauss have quotes in the hypersonic range (hypersonic is velocity's between mach 5 and mach 10 (1,700 to 3,400m/s)). Assuming a Heavy Gauss had a velocity of 1,750m/s it would produce a Kinetic energy of some 383 megajoules (An 16 inch shell from an Iowa Class battleship produces about 360Mj at the muzzle). Scaling with the regular Gauss would have the regular Gauss having 230 megajoules and a velocity of 1.92km/s (this is roughly the same as the 14 inch guns from the New Mexico Class battleships at the muzzle). Also note under rules form tactical operations Gauss Rifles effectively have a line of sight range (which can be some 20 or so kilometers).

On the other hand we also know that capital scale ranges are also canon, as such a Gauss Rifle has a range of 360km as the combat dose not take the whole 60 seconds this brings up the velocity of Gauss rifles to insane speeds (like 24km/s). Though many who do debates generally only use these as a upper limit of B-tech ability's and not a more representative look of what B-tech can do.

Also of the 15 or so quotes that do not mention hypersonic they instead mention supersonic velocity's, a few do mention more direct numbers like mach 2.2 (750m/s) or 1,000m/s in one case.

Personally I view velocity's under mach 8 (2.7km/s or less) to be more accurate, as even at these velocity's your looking at quite heavy recoil. I like using 2.2km/s (roughly mach 6.5) for regular Gauss rifles partly for the play on the old mach 2.2 quotes...

As for autocannons well they have far fewer quotes, a few mention hypervelocity and other supersonic.

[CaveMan]

Erhardt, on 05 November 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there shouldn't be any recoil on a Gauss slug? Isn't it propelled out of the weapon by magnetic accelleration down the length of the barrel? Basically being "sucked out" the business-end, rather than being blown out like AC shells, hence no recoil?

Incorrect. The magnetic coils exert a force on the projectile, but they exert an equal force on the 'Mech. It's simple physics. The law of conservation of momentum says that the total momentum of a system is constant, meaning the projectile and launcher experience equal impulse. Otherwise things like ion drives wouldn't function. Of course the 'Mech can still have recoil dampers, like having the whole gun floating in oil, but there are practical limits to what these systems can absorb. You're going to feel some recoil no matter what.

Quote

And that's assuming it somehow didn't vaporize from friction with the air before reaching the target. Military fighter jets have titanium leading-edges just to keep from burning up at paltry Mach 3+ speeds. A ferrous-nickle slug doesn't stand a chance at Mach 70.

Not entirely true about fighter jets. There's no risk of burning up at Mach 3. The reason titanium and other high-temperature alloys are used is because aerodynamic heating softens the metal. At mach 3 leading edges only reach about 1500F. At Mach 70, you're correct, there would be significant ablation of the projectile due to friction. However at 24,000 m/s it would cross several kilometers before enough mass was lost to render it ineffective. Also, nickel-iron has a higher melting point than titanium

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Bingo and +1 internets.

I still don't agree about hitscan weapons. Even if we can completely ignore ballistic drop and windage effects (which the tabletop rules say we can't, as a mere 660m carries a huge +4 range modifier, indicating significant aiming is required, otherwise you could eyeball a shot like that on a 12m target), hitscan gives credit to the guy with the fastest mouse polling and the shortest ping. At least some ballistic tracking is needed even if it's just a formality.

[Corvus Antaka]

Mech4 had serious problems. Hitting the groin as always a center torso hit. back shots could be registered as CT hits.

one main issue mechwarrior online should address is weapons dispersal on alpha strikes - the ability to drop mechs with 2 center torso shots in mech4 where the entire alpha strike hammered 1 spot without fail everytime was a huge problem. alpha strikes should have severe repercussions, especially for high heat based mechs.

Heat management really needs to be much tougher in mechwarrior online too, otherwise laser based mechs that instant hit the same spot easily will be far to dominant, especially alpha strikes. Pilot skill should still reward excellent targeting, but as noted, alpha strikes and downing mechs with 2 easy CT shots ala mech4 needs to stop.

And please make jumpjests thrust mechs up and forward forcefully as they should. *** help us if mechwarrior online turns into wack a mole like mech4 did. see btech 3025 for how to do good jumpjets....imho anyhow.

[Colaessus]

It nice to see most of you girl complain about hit boxes well overlooking the fact of the real mechanics of the guns you are talking about.

Some of you mention the actual velocity of a guass gun and how the game does not follow real life math. But you insist on complaining about hit boxes.

With all this BS I have yet to see some one talk about "lobbing" as if we live on a planet with no gravity.

I am sure if you all had to lob your shots over rang, hit boxes might not matter so much.

Might want to look into WWII tank damage report.

I just love talking about something well neglecting the other part of the picture. Darwin FTW.

Edited by Amro_One, 05 November 2011 - 03:55 PM.

[CaveMan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 05 November 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Mech4 had serious problems. Hitting the groin as always a center torso hit. back shots could be registered as CT hits.

one main issue mechwarrior online should address is weapons dispersal on alpha strikes - the ability to drop mechs with 2 center torso shots in mech4 where the entire alpha strike hammered 1 spot without fail everytime was a huge problem. alpha strikes should have severe repercussions, especially for high heat based mechs.

Heat management really needs to be much tougher in mechwarrior online too, otherwise laser based mechs that instant hit the same spot easily will be far to dominant, especially alpha strikes. Pilot skill should still reward excellent targeting, but as noted, alpha strikes and downing mechs with 2 easy CT shots ala mech4 needs to stop.

And please make jumpjests thrust mechs up and forward forcefully as they should. *** help us if mechwarrior online turns into wack a mole like mech4 did. see btech 3025 for how to do good jumpjets....imho anyhow.

I like the suggestion upthread (or was it in a different thread?) about keeping weapon mounts in different body sections parallel. Got 6 lasers in an arm? Good luck pinpointing that group shot into the enemy's cockpit. It would essentially require precision shooters to use chain fire and individually aim each weapon in sequence--much harder to do than with converging guns.

[Colaessus]

Says the complainer.

[UncleKulikov]

I really don't think that having bullet drop would improve the game. Time to target for ballistics, maybe.
I'm also not convinced that having deflection based on armor thickness and angle would improve the game either.
Basically, I don't care how the mechanics are done as long as it's balanced, and consistent.

When I'm against a feature or way to do something, its because I don't think that element would provide balanced consistent gameplay.