37 replies to this topic

[Ettibber]

trycksh0t, on 13 August 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Cost of a stock Wolfhound: ~ 3.14 million c-bills
Cost of a Prime variant Timberwolf: ~ 24.2 million c-bills

Attempting to go head-to-head with an unidentified BattleMech that weighs over twice the one you're piloting: Priceless.

There are some things that money can't buy, for everything else there's massive ego.

So long Phelan, thanks for all the fish.

yes because phelan knew what he was going against, and hell he had a lance with him. at first he thought it was a modified cat.

Hohiro Kurita, on 13 August 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

The months of interrogation, and neural whips from Vlad, and sex. He got the better deal in the end. His girlfriend killed Osis and pretty much saved the Inner Sphere by giving them time to catch up - as little as it was.

Barring that terrible, terrible, ridiculous plot nonsense that was the Jihad - I do not recognize this or anything after 3067 as canon.

osis? you mean lincoln osis because he was beheaded by victor, or do you mean tyra with leo showers on the dire wolf?

Stormwolf, on 14 August 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Good old Phelan Kell, he's essentially a trueborn when you consider that Wolf's Dragoons had a hand in his conception.

well...he is a trueborn, hence why he was given the ability to fight for a blood name(and don't give me that diana bull)

[Jakob Knight]

Ettibber, on 14 August 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

well...he is a trueborn, hence why he was given the ability to fight for a blood name(and don't give me that diana bull)

Actually, no. Phelan was a Freeborn, and that was why so many Wolf Clan warriors refused to accept him. It is not just that a person comes from the Clans that makes them a Trueborn (the Clans were the ones who came up with the terms, after all), but that they were the direct products of an iron womb and the genetic programs of the Clans. To the Clans, a Trueborn is a designed Human engineered to be the ultimate warrior and inherently superior to Freeborn of any sort.

Phelan Kell had a father and a mother, something no Trueborn would ever have, and this forever marked him as a second-class person in the view of most in the Clans. The -only- reason he was allowed to challenge for a bloodname was that he was a direct genetic decendant of the originator of that bloodname, and so had claim to it the Clans could not deny without undermining their entire way of life (to the Clans as a whole, one's genes were the only sacred things in the universe).

This is why Phelan's success and ascension were such blows to the Clans that it split Clan Wolf and caused the very foundations of the Clan way of life to be called into question.

[Stormwolf]

Jakob Knight, on 14 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Actually, no. Phelan was a Freeborn, and that was why so many Wolf Clan warriors refused to accept him. It is not just that a person comes from the Clans that makes them a Trueborn (the Clans were the ones who came up with the terms, after all), but that they were the direct products of an iron womb and the genetic programs of the Clans. To the Clans, a Trueborn is a designed Human engineered to be the ultimate warrior and inherently superior to Freeborn of any sort.

Phelan Kell had a father and a mother, something no Trueborn would ever have, and this forever marked him as a second-class person in the view of most in the Clans. The -only- reason he was allowed to challenge for a bloodname was that he was a direct genetic decendant of the originator of that bloodname, and so had claim to it the Clans could not deny without undermining their entire way of life (to the Clans as a whole, one's genes were the only sacred things in the universe).

This is why Phelan's success and ascension were such blows to the Clans that it split Clan Wolf and caused the very foundations of the Clan way of life to be called into question.

This has actually been discussed quite a bit, most pointers to him being akin to a Trueborn can be found in Lethal Heritage.
Only Jaime Wolf and Natasha Kerensky know this, not even Phelan Kell ever figured this out.

Just look at this :

Quote

Wolf drew himself up to his full height. "Morgan Kell knows what I have trusted him with—and trust him I do. He and Salome are coming here so we can run some tests and help them with an infertility problem."

This seems to imply that they used Clan medical technology to engineer Phelan, though he was placed in a actual womb instead of a iron one.


Now here's something interesting:

Quote

Phelan sat back against the chair, but tipped his head forward to shade his eyes. He already felt heat from the light collecting in his mop of black hair. "I am Phelan Patrick Kell."

"Very well." The tone implied belief that he was still lying, and suggested dire consequences would result, but it moved on.

"Where is your codex?"

Phelan blinked at his own reflection. "My codex?"

"Where is your codex?"

The young mercenary frowned. "Explain what a codex is."

"Deception will not help you. We will go on with this until we are satisfied."

Phelan forced himself to unknot his hands. "I don't know what you are talking about."

"Who is your father?"

Phelan's expression eased. "Colonel Morgan Kell, Morgan Finn Kell."

"Who is your mother?"

"Salome Ward Kell."

The inflection change in the voice surprised Phelan, almost as much as his answer seemed to surprise the questioner. "Deception will not help you. Who is your mother?"

"Salome Ward Kell."

Another voice, clearly male, came through the speaker. "Does your mother claim a Captain Michael Ward of the Star League Defense Forces?" The second voice gave off more feeling, and Phelan almost instantly felt a desire to please that person with his answer.

Easy, Phelan. Be careful. This is the standard good guy/ bad guy interrogation technique. He stared forward at the glass. "Yes, on both sides of the family. Her father and mother were distant cousins."

The harsh voice snapped a quick question. "What does the name Jal mean to you?"

The irritation in the harsh voice infected Phelan. "How the hell should I know?" Even as he snarled his answer, something nibbled at the back of his mind. "Wait! Jal was Michael Ward's son. Someone said he took off with General Kerensky in his father's place."

Curiosity seemed to fill the pleasant voice's next question. "Are you sure of this?"

Phelan shrugged as much as the restraints would allow.

"As sure as I can be of ancient family history. We have it all written down somewhere so I never bothered to memorize it."

The harsh voice returned. "Where is your codex?"

Phelan ground his teeth. "What is a codex?"

I suspect that they went over his DNA and found out that he some modifications akin to a Trueborn of the Ward bloodhouse. They wouldn't have been nagging him about the codex otherwise.

There is a possibility here that they believe that one of his parents is a Wolf's Dragoon, they had plenty of Wards in their ranks. Additionally, he has the right age, being born 3031 only 12 years after the last supply run.

[Jakob Knight]

Stormwolf, on 14 August 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

This has actually been discussed quite a bit, most pointers to him being akin to a Trueborn can be found in Lethal Heritage.
Only Jaime Wolf and Natasha Kerensky know this, not even Phelan Kell ever figured this out.

Just look at this :



This seems to imply that they used Clan medical technology to engineer Phelan, though he was placed in a actual womb instead of a iron one.


Now here's something interesting:




I suspect that they went over his DNA and found out that he some modifications akin to a Trueborn of the Ward bloodhouse. They wouldn't have been nagging him about the codex otherwise.

There is a possibility here that they believe that one of his parents is a Wolf's Dragoon, they had plenty of Wards in their ranks. Additionally, he has the right age, being born 3031 only 12 years after the last supply run.

It's possible he was the result of genetic manipulation (certainly the evidence points to at least limited work), but he still wouldn't be considered Trueborn by the Clans at any point up to well past where the Invasion stops (the earliest any Clan technicians could gain access to any records that might exist to verify it, and it was moot at that point). To the Clans, you were only Trueborn -their- way. They wouldn't be interested in an inferior attempt at what they had already perfected (remember, Clan mindset here). Natural birth meant Freebirth, as the iron womb and training creche were integral parts of the Trueborn concept.

As to the codex, up to that point, the Clans had no concept of a mechwarrior without a codex. Remember, Freeborn were not allowed to pilot battlemechs, even second-line units (there weren't enough 'mechs for all of the Trueborn warriors as it stood), so all pilots had to be Trueborn and therefore have a codex. This is especially confusing to them when they are told he is a Ward, an especially elevated bloodname among the Wolves. How can he be a Ward and not have a codex? It was Phelan's interrogation that revealed just how much the Dragoons had not reported to the Clans.

Ultimately, of course, the situation was altered by the Khan taking a personal stake in the matter. Still, had Phelan been captured by any other Clan but Wolf (and perhaps Nova Cats), he likely wouldn't have ever made it out of the interrogation room.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 14 August 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[Jmb]

Considering he was against a mech that outweighed him by 40 tons, out-ranged and out-gunned him (would have only blasted him in the back if he tried to run), and could nearly equal his speed, he put up a decent fight. Definitely hurt Vlad's ego by outsmarting him.

Also, he told the other two members of the lance to get out, he also kept transmitting sensor data to them till his mech went boom. He also thought the Timber Wolf only had light armor because XL engines, Endo-steel, and Ferro-fibrous armor were unheard of at this time in the Sphere.

Edited by Jmb, 14 August 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[Egilbe]

Wasn't clan Nova Cat crusaders until after the refusal war? It's been a few years since I played Mechwarrior2 so my history may be a little rusty. In order it was Clan invasion, Clans were stopped by the combined armies of the IS, Refusal war, and the war that destroyed Clan Jaguar.

Now I wish I hadn't thrown away those 100+ Battletech novels I had

[Skylarr]

Jakob Knight, on 14 August 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

It's possible he was the result of genetic manipulation (certainly the evidence points to at least limited work), but he still wouldn't be considered Trueborn by the Clans at any point up to well past where the Invasion stops (the earliest any Clan technicians could gain access to any records that might exist to verify it, and it was moot at that point). To the Clans, you were only Trueborn -their- way. They wouldn't be interested in an inferior attempt at what they had already perfected (remember, Clan mindset here). Natural birth meant Freebirth, as the iron womb and training creche were integral parts of the Trueborn concept.

As to the codex, up to that point, the Clans had no concept of a mechwarrior without a codex. Remember, Freeborn were not allowed to pilot battlemechs, even second-line units (there weren't enough 'mechs for all of the Trueborn warriors as it stood), so all pilots had to be Trueborn and therefore have a codex. This is especially confusing to them when they are told he is a Ward, an especially elevated bloodname among the Wolves. How can he be a Ward and not have a codex? It was Phelan's interrogation that revealed just how much the Dragoons had not reported to the Clans.

Ultimately, of course, the situation was altered by the Khan taking a personal stake in the matter. Still, had Phelan been captured by any other Clan but Wolf (and perhaps Nova Cats), he likely wouldn't have ever made it out of the interrogation room.

Are you sure about "Freeborn were not allowed to pilot battlemechs, even second-line units"? I thought the only Clan that did not allow Freeborns to pilot mechs was the Smoke Jaguar?

You make it sound as if the Clans executed all prisoners. Why would they waste a valuable resource? They would be re-educated an placed in the Labor Caste or destroyed. Several Clans even let captured IS warriors become Mech pilots again, after first being re-educated then testing out. After the Wolf civil war this stopped.

The Wolf's Dragoons were mostly Freeborn warriors, Except for Natasha.

Following a suggestion by Khan Nadia Winson of Clan Ghost Bear in the year 3000, Clan politicking created a unit that was to be sent back to the Inner Sphere on a long-term mission to reconnoiter it, posing as a mercenary unit, to prepare for the planned conquest by the Clans. The mission was placed under the command of the freeborn brothers Jaime Wolf and Joshua Wolf, who named the unit Wolf's Dragoons.

The unit’s personnel was largely recruited from freeborn volunteers, mostly from Clan Wolf, and only a relatively few trueborn Clan warriors. Clan Wolf also provided special training for the fledgling unit to mask their origins.

Edited by Skylarr, 14 August 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Dantioch]

who gives a ****, this game is so boring one senless fight after another is no game content for me so f..k it and f..k phelan kell too and 15 mins rounds double lol world of mechtanks

[Faolan65]

This is one of the first Btech novels I read and got hooked on the lore, but my brain is freezing up on me, whats the title of the novel (series) by Stackpole right?


*****Nevermind, I found it, the Blood of Kerensky series********

Edited by Faolan65, 14 August 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Skylarr, on 14 August 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Are you sure about "Freeborn were not allowed to pilot battlemechs, even second-line units"? I thought the only Clan that did not allow Freeborns to pilot mechs was the Smoke Jaguar?

The Vipers did not allow freeborn warriors too, same for the Coyotes. They changed their mindset over time.

Dantioch, on 14 August 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

who gives a ****, this game is so boring one senless fight after another is no game content for me so f..k it and f..k phelan kell too and 15 mins rounds double lol world of mechtanks

Butthurt much?

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Dantioch, on 14 August 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

who gives a ****, this game is so boring one senless fight after another is no game content for me so f..k it and f..k phelan kell too and 15 mins rounds double lol world of mechtanks

It is called... BETA. Not all content is finished yet.

As for Phelan... Too bad about that Wolfhound

[Khan Warlock Kell]

I's settle for a wolfhound to be added to the game now, and id be happy to wait the next year while they fix my main ride the timber wolf.

[Kai Harper]

trycksh0t, on 13 August 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Cost of a stock Wolfhound: ~ 3.14 million c-bills
Cost of a Prime variant Timberwolf: ~ 24.2 million c-bills

Attempting to go head-to-head with an unidentified BattleMech that weighs over twice the one you're piloting: Priceless.

There are some things that money can't buy, for everything else there's massive ego.

Sigg'd. =P

...Or it would be, if the sig editor wasn't being retarded. I'm using 4 lines, dammit! (Condensed it)

Edited by Kai Harper, 15 August 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Skylarr, on 14 August 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Are you sure about "Freeborn were not allowed to pilot battlemechs, even second-line units"? I thought the only Clan that did not allow Freeborns to pilot mechs was the Smoke Jaguar?

You make it sound as if the Clans executed all prisoners. Why would they waste a valuable resource? They would be re-educated an placed in the Labor Caste or destroyed. Several Clans even let captured IS warriors become Mech pilots again, after first being re-educated then testing out. After the Wolf civil war this stopped.

The Wolf's Dragoons were mostly Freeborn warriors, Except for Natasha.

Following a suggestion by Khan Nadia Winson of Clan Ghost Bear in the year 3000, Clan politicking created a unit that was to be sent back to the Inner Sphere on a long-term mission to reconnoiter it, posing as a mercenary unit, to prepare for the planned conquest by the Clans. The mission was placed under the command of the freeborn brothers Jaime Wolf and Joshua Wolf, who named the unit Wolf's Dragoons.

The unit’s personnel was largely recruited from freeborn volunteers, mostly from Clan Wolf, and only a relatively few trueborn Clan warriors. Clan Wolf also provided special training for the fledgling unit to mask their origins.

Perhaps I should have prefaced what I said with 'at the time of the Invasion'. Several Clans did allow Freeborn warriors up to a few years before the Invasion (which among the Clans translated to a generation of warriors before), but by the time the actual operation began both the Crusader mindset and material requirements had pushed Freeborn into infantry garrison positions and tank crews (at best) so that as many Trueborn warriors as possible could pilot 'mechs. Freeborn were not mechwarriors, and bais against them was very negative in almost every Clan. For a Freeborn to have a Bloodname was unheard of as well.


While it is true the Clans would not execute Freeborn prisoners that did not resist, a Freeborn captured while actively fighting the Clans in a battlemech would have been considered a bandit or rebel to the Clan way and executed once all information had been extracted. In the case of extreme Crusader Clans such as the Smoke Jaguar, the pilot might not even make it out of the cockpit. Note that this might not be the case if the mechwarrior was known to be a member of a Successor State military force, as these would be considered soldiers by the Clans and afforded minimal respect, but mercenaries of any stripe were looked upon as Bandit Caste, and treated that way. Phelan Kell's subsequent actions and the few victories the Inner Sphere won during the Invasion did much to reverse this bais and make the Clans rethink the inferiority of Freeborn warriors. Some Clans never did, though, and in those Freeborn remained just one step above slaves.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 15 August 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Jakob Knight, on 14 August 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

It's possible he was the result of genetic manipulation (certainly the evidence points to at least limited work), but he still wouldn't be considered Trueborn by the Clans at any point up to well past where the Invasion stops (the earliest any Clan technicians could gain access to any records that might exist to verify it, and it was moot at that point). To the Clans, you were only Trueborn -their- way. They wouldn't be interested in an inferior attempt at what they had already perfected (remember, Clan mindset here). Natural birth meant Freebirth, as the iron womb and training creche were integral parts of the Trueborn concept.

Well, Phelan Kell was raised on Outreach in a environment similar to a sibko, he even had Natasha Kerensky show him all the ropes.
But I agree, most of the Clan trueborns wouldn't accept this, especially with guys like Conal Ward and Vlad around.

Quote

As to the codex, up to that point, the Clans had no concept of a mechwarrior without a codex. Remember, Freeborn were not allowed to pilot battlemechs, even second-line units (there weren't enough 'mechs for all of the Trueborn warriors as it stood), so all pilots had to be Trueborn and therefore have a codex. This is especially confusing to them when they are told he is a Ward, an especially elevated bloodname among the Wolves. How can he be a Ward and not have a codex? It was Phelan's interrogation that revealed just how much the Dragoons had not reported to the Clans.

Well, actually they do know about the IS not using any codexes, they even frequently kidnap people from the periphery from time to time. In "Way of the Clans" there is a part where Aidan gets his neurohelmet callibrated, the guy doing the the callibrating was a periphery bondsman. They know from capturing those guys what to expect.

In the same novel which takes place in the 3030's we are introduced to freeborn warriors in Clan Jade Falcon (Horse and the others). Freeborns in the are usually only forbidden from piloting mechs among the Smoke Jaguars and a few other Clans. The Wolves, Jade Falcons and Star Adders seem rather liberal in that regard.

Quote

Ultimately, of course, the situation was altered by the Khan taking a personal stake in the matter. Still, had Phelan been captured by any other Clan but Wolf (and perhaps Nova Cats), he likely wouldn't have ever made it out of the interrogation room.

The Nova Cats didn't really participate till 3051, this only leaves the Jade Falcons, Ghost Bears and Smoke Jaguars. Hate to say it, but his chances would have probably been best with the Jade Falcons out of those three. Ghost Bears hate mercs and will kill them on sight. Smoke Jaguars hate everyone who isn't part of the SJ warrior caste. The Jade Falcons might have considered adopting him into the Clan if he beat his opponent in battle. He could have potentially ended up in Aidan's unit since it's a dumping ground for the unwanted anyway.

I might be jumping the shark with that last one, but it would make for a awesome story.

[Jakob Knight]

Stormwolf, on 15 August 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Well, Phelan Kell was raised on Outreach in a environment similar to a sibko, he even had Natasha Kerensky show him all the ropes.
But I agree, most of the Clan trueborns wouldn't accept this, especially with guys like Conal Ward and Vlad around.



Well, actually they do know about the IS not using any codexes, they even frequently kidnap people from the periphery from time to time. In "Way of the Clans" there is a part where Aidan gets his neurohelmet callibrated, the guy doing the the callibrating was a periphery bondsman. They know from capturing those guys what to expect.

In the same novel which takes place in the 3030's we are introduced to freeborn warriors in Clan Jade Falcon (Horse and the others). Freeborns in the are usually only forbidden from piloting mechs among the Smoke Jaguars and a few other Clans. The Wolves, Jade Falcons and Star Adders seem rather liberal in that regard.




The Nova Cats didn't really participate till 3051, this only leaves the Jade Falcons, Ghost Bears and Smoke Jaguars. Hate to say it, but his chances would have probably been best with the Jade Falcons out of those three. Ghost Bears hate mercs and will kill them on sight. Smoke Jaguars hate everyone who isn't part of the SJ warrior caste. The Jade Falcons might have considered adopting him into the Clan if he beat his opponent in battle. He could have potentially ended up in Aidan's unit since it's a dumping ground for the unwanted anyway.

I might be jumping the shark with that last one, but it would make for a awesome story.

Mostly true. The Jade Falcons might have known, but they were certainly one of the Clans least known for sharing their discoveries with other Clans. Likely the Falcons knew the Periphery bandits didn't use codexes, but wether they would have told the other Clans, or if the Clans as a whole simply assumed regular Inner Sphere forces would maintain codexes is hard to say. All that seems certain is that they expected Phelan to have one as a matter of course, and had a hard time accepting that he didn't.

As to the Jade Falcons being his best alternative, it's also hard to say for certain. He might have been, but the Falcons were among the most stringent purists of Kerensky's vision (as they saw it), so Phelan would not have found a Khan ready to give him the opportunity to become a warrior of the Clan, as he did in the Wolves. Best case, he would have been held as a prisoner until his worth could be determined, and assigned as Labor Caste if he was deemed fit enough to be brought into the Clan at all. Being captured by the Wolves at a time when a Khan who was an unconventional Warden was in dominance was by far his greatest stroke of luck.

As said, we will have to wait and see if he was as lucky in the MWO progression of the timeline.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 15 August 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[zorgoth]

WOAH WOAH! slow down people, relax. whats with all this ''clan'' talk? what is this, scotland? mongola? crimea? we're not discussing the golden horde or anything like that. now i want you all to slow down and think rationally. its probably just the dracs up to something. maybe they captured 'em, and tried to paint some sort of evidence pointing to a massive army in the periphery with tech like the star league- something that would have the fed com pull troops from the border so they can break those defenses easily.

whatever it is, as long as it puts money in my pocket, i'm for it. i mean, what could possibly go wrong?

[Skylarr]

Jakob Knight, on 15 August 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Perhaps I should have prefaced what I said with 'at the time of the Invasion'. Several Clans did allow Freeborn warriors up to a few years before the Invasion (which among the Clans translated to a generation of warriors before), but by the time the actual operation began both the Crusader mindset and material requirements had pushed Freeborn into infantry garrison positions and tank crews (at best) so that as many Trueborn warriors as possible could pilot 'mechs. Freeborn were not mechwarriors, and bais against them was very negative in almost every Clan. For a Freeborn to have a Bloodname was unheard of as well.

The Jade Falcon had whole Freeborn Battlemech Units, garrison posts. They also had the Falcon Guards, after Twycross, that was a mixed unit that faught on Tuukyid. I believe they had other mixed unit assisting front line units. I am sure the Wolfs would also have Freeborn Mechwarriors.

Edited by Skylarr, 15 August 2012 - 06:55 PM.