78 replies to this topic

[Outlaw2]

PROTIP: Make sure you have a non-cannon name picked out...just in case

[John Clavell]

Joseph Calvert, on 30 January 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Besides you could design your own cool unit camo and insignia

We already did that

[John Clavell]

Dihm, on 30 January 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

This last bit was exactly what I was trying to understand from the different units. You're in a better position than, say, the Northwind Highlanders or Grey Death Legion. Even if you won't admit it, it sounds like your Plan A takes these issues into consideration. Just trying to commiserate with other people who might be in the situation I was when we first started forming as the 3rd Drakons (canon FRR unit) and the PITA it was trying to plan for the future as we found out more info. Being Merc you already have the leg up on faction units for flexibility, that's for sure.

Fair point. Yes, our Plan A tries to cover future change. We're putting things in place fast enough to get momentum, but as slow as possible to not jump the gun as much as possible. Like everything in life, a balancing act.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Well, I always have the Clan Wolf Zulu Galaxy! (non canon in case you did not know)

[Firefly]

I've tried to ignore this thread because it's like one of sixty other threads saying the exact same thing. However, my unit's name has been called out so I'm going to address a few points. Sorry if this sounds like a pissed-off rant, in advance. It's really not. I'm just trying to put some emphasis on one key point.

John Clavell, on 30 January 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

One thing to point out about the Black Widow Company which has currently taken the name. This might be ignorance on my part, and I welcome Firefly to correct me if I am wrong. But said group is a multi gaming clan, I was under the impression that their groups name was not actually anything to do with Battletech and was just a coincidence. Anyway, there is way too much hate in here for this time of the morning. I've also replied to your post on the Dragoon sub-unit thread on these forums.

John is absolutely correct. We are not the Black Widow Company from NBT or whatever AOL chat room existed back in the early 90s. We said as much in our recruitment thread. We chose the name based on something else. None of us knew about BattleTech and none of us knew about Black Widow Company or Wolf's Dragoons. It was purely coincidence and when I began playing MechWarrior video games I still didn't know about the unit (BWC didn't play MW4 at the time so I gamed under another banner). When I began playing BattleTech I *STILL* didn't know about Black Widow Company and it wasn't until about a year later that I found out what the unit really was.

So whilst I can understand some of the anger and rage about people daring to presume they can wear the hallowed tag of Waco's Rangers and Fatty McGee's Fearsome Foursome, I think these people need to calm down and wait for more information from the developers on how they intend to handle it. Because honestly, none of us knows anything about how they'll handle it. It's been said, alternately, that some units will be unavailable for use and it's been said they'll let merc units use what they want and nobody really knows what the deal is.

If it turns out that "Black Widow Company" is unavailable, we have a plan to work around that. Nothing is going to stop me from using the name or any of its various creative incarnations. Sorry that bugs some of the fanbois but I've been gaming under this name for far too long to just name the unit Firefly's Fanboi-haters. I daresay some of the other canon units feel the same way.

Edited by Firefly, 31 January 2012 - 09:16 AM.

[Korbyn McColl]

Dihm, on 30 January 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

This last bit was exactly what I was trying to understand from the different units. You're in a better position than, say, the Northwind Highlanders or Grey Death Legion. Even if you won't admit it, it sounds like your Plan A takes these issues into consideration. Just trying to commiserate with other people who might be in the situation I was when we first started forming as the 3rd Drakons (canon FRR unit) and the PITA it was trying to plan for the future as we found out more info. Being Merc you already have the leg up on faction units for flexibility, that's for sure.

Speaking of the Northwind Highlanders, we're really just gathering together all of the NWH units from all of the leagues that have existed online for decades now (can't believe I can honestly use the term decades in the plural when talking about online gaming...but I can), as well as people who are just fans of the unit in general.

Our primary intention is to be inclusive. That is, we want to find a way for anyone who is a fan of NWH to join us. Whether they are a hardcore, play 5 hours every night and play with strict discipline type, or just a play a couple of nights a week and have fun blowing crap up type.

Beyond that, we're just playing the wait and see game. If we get to use the name Northwind Highlanders, great! We're not saying anyone in the unit is going to play the role of Tara Campbell or William MacLeod, but those will be NPCs within the chain of command, so to speak. If we don't get to use Northwind Highlanders, we may take up the individual regiments instead and just stay in touch via our websites. If we aren't allowed the name at all? We'll come up with something.

The point is, we're gathering together a group of players with similar interests. Would we like to represent Northwind? Absolutely! Will we get our panties in a wad and rage quit before the game even launches if we're not allowed to? Of course not.

[Korbyn McColl]

Firefly, on 31 January 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

If it turns out that "Black Widow Company" is unavailable, we have a plan to work around that. Nothing is going to stop me from using the name or any of its various creative incarnations. Sorry that bugs some of the fanbois but I've been gaming under this name for far too long to just name the unit Firefly's Fanboi-haters. I daresay some of the other canon units feel the same way.

Bingo. Many of us were gaming under these unit names before there were even source books for them, let alone novels. Back when they were a single paragraph entry that you were actively encouraged to be a member of in the old 1984 table top game book.

[Harrow]

Firefly, on 31 January 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

...but I've been gaming under this name for far too long to just name the unit Firefly's Fanboi-haters. I daresay some of the other canon units feel the same way.

How about: Firefly's Non Canons [get it? see what I did there? nyuk nuk]

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

I love the guys claiming to be the Kell Hounds... lol

[Damocles]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 01 February 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I love the guys claiming to be the Kell Hounds... lol

Haha yeah and people who use in universe names like Kerensky etc.

Bhuh?

[Firefly]

Damocles, on 01 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Haha yeah and people who use in universe names like Kerensky etc.

Bhuh?

[Harrow]

Kay Wolf, on 30 January 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

I've read a good deal of this, and I'm disappointed in every member of this community other than those who agree "it is what it is". You're calling these other commanders arrogant, you're calling me arrogant...

You know what? You're absolutely right, and that's exactly the sort of people we need in the places of leadership on these forums and in the game. Arrogant commanders -which, if you think about it, it is redundant to use those terms in the same sentence, because to be in command of anything you have to be arrogant enough to believe that you can command, and that you can make the changes and hard decisions necessary to move forward- will move this game forward, not those of you who are sitting on the back-burner ******** and complaining about something you can not change. We will push this community to greater heights, not the complaining yoinks who didn't have balls enough to do what you needed to do at the beginning to secure what you've had, or what you've wanted, as a legacy, and you didn't have brains enough when this forum was first launched to step up.

This is about lead, follow, or get out of the way. Harrow, and others who agree with him, you're in the way. Stop complaining, step up, or step away. 'Nuff said. I'm out (shakes head while walking away).

So basically you're dissappointed in anyone who disagrees with you. Got it. (how did i miss this little gem?)

Also I think you're confusing arrogance with confidence.

How do you want me to step up exactly? (when you respond to this sincere question, don't make any assumptions)

Edited by Harrow, 02 February 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Harrow, on 02 February 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

So basically you're dissappointed in anyone who disagrees with you. Got it. (how did i miss this little gem?)

Also I think you're confusing arrogance with confidence.

How do you want me to step up exactly? (when you respond to this sincere question, don't make any assumptions)

First, yes I'm disappointed, but it's not because of anyone who disagrees with me; that's your assumption, and you know what assuming does, yes? I am disappointed in anyone who can't agree with the principle that those who've earned it, or if they haven't earned it have been in it long enough -so, yeah, they've earned it-, should have it. What we have is a bunch of whiners who believe they have every bit as much right to be a commander as anyone else on this forum, without first earning it. That's what I'm disappointed in.

Second, there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Being confident is what you do when you're certain you can do the job and have a better chance than most folks at getting it done appropriately, without running your mouth about it. Arrogance is where you know you can do the job, whether you actually can or not, and you tell everyone in the world you can. I was making a display of arrogance in my earlier comment because the previous posters who believe it's arrogant to be in charge of any canon unit are not going to let it go without seeing a true display of arrogance. It's not arrogant to want to run a canon unit that you've loved for a long time and know the most about; that's a desire to have fun, and knowing you can run the unit the right way.

You know what the mark of a true commander is, someone who IS arrogant about their abilities, but doesn't display that arrogance without good cause; I had GREAT cause.

How do I want you to step up? Put up or shut up, that's how. If you think no one is capable of being your commander, that you would not fall in under anyone else because they could never allow you to go where YOU want to go, could never run a fight the way YOU would run a fight, then you need to form your own unit or become a lone wolf. Oh, and by the way, that attitude you have there, is arrogance. More often than not a commander needs arrogance to be able to step in the face of someone that's arguing with the way he wants it to be done and back them down.

When you run a unit it is, ultimately, YOUR unit, and YOU determine how YOUR unit runs, period. Anyone who doesn't agree with that, and who isn't able to convince you, through common sense, knowledge, and reason, to be reasonable and change for the betterment of the unit, and they're typically being arrogant when they don't agree, needs to be backed down or they need to walk.

By the way, Harrow, being in command is NOT a popularity contest, and bloody few people are capable of being both a good friend AND a good commander. You know those checklists you can find all over the place online that can help you determine whether you're right to run a business or not? If there were one for running a mercenary unit online, you'd have ALMOST all of the blocks checked that say yes, you're capable. Keep working at it, buddy.

FINAL EDIT: Arrogance is NOT a bad thing, all the time, it is not evil, and it's not a bad word. Who do you think runs the corporations, the governments, the police and fire services, the military, etc.? Arrogant people who know what they're doing, for the most part.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 02 February 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[Harrow]

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

First, yes I'm disappointed, but it's not because of anyone who disagrees with me; that's your assumption, and you know what assuming does, yes? I am disappointed in anyone who can't agree with the principle that those who've earned it, or if they haven't earned it have been in it long enough -so, yeah, they've earned it-, should have it. What we have is a bunch of whiners who believe they have every bit as much right to be a commander as anyone else on this forum, without first earning it. That's what I'm disappointed in.

Well you said you were "disappointed in everyone who doesn't agree with..." so i got the wrong impression. But how does one fan 'earn' anything more than another. As i've said before, so many people not represented here right now, but will most likely be playing the game, have just as great, or better, 'resumes' if you want to call them that then any of the rest of us. Don't see how anyone is more 'deserving'.

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Second, there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Being confident is what you do when you're certain you can do the job and have a better chance than most folks at getting it done appropriately, without running your mouth about it. Arrogance is where you know you can do the job, whether you actually can or not, and you tell everyone in the world you can. I was making a display of arrogance in my earlier comment because the previous posters who believe it's arrogant to be in charge of any canon unit are not going to let it go without seeing a true display of arrogance. It's not arrogant to want to run a canon unit that you've loved for a long time and know the most about; that's a desire to have fun, and knowing you can run the unit the right way.

Let's back up a bit here, no one questioned your capability. It was the appropriateness of using a canon unit name within the setting that the much broader MW:O community represents.

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

You know what the mark of a true commander is, someone who IS arrogant about their abilities, but doesn't display that arrogance without good cause; I had GREAT cause.

Every great leader I have been fortunate to meet was humble and never displayed arrogance, with or without cause. So many of the people we call 'leaders' these days are so lacking in this department.

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

How do I want you to step up? Put up or shut up, that's how.

I run a five year old guild of 200+ members, that will be transitioning from another game into this one, does that count?

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

If you think no one is capable of being your commander, that you would not fall in under anyone else because they could never allow you to go where YOU want to go, could never run a fight the way YOU would run a fight, then you need to form your own unit or become a lone wolf. Oh, and by the way, that attitude you have there, is arrogance. More often than not a commander needs arrogance to be able to step in the face of someone that's arguing with the way he wants it to be done and back them down.

I never said 'no one was capable of being my commander'. Again, this was never about you or anyone else abilities as a leader. Its about the use of canon names by player made groups. And my attitude is conviction, not arrogance.

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

When you run a unit it is, ultimately, YOUR unit, and YOU determine how YOUR unit runs, period. Anyone who doesn't agree with that, and who isn't able to convince you, through common sense, knowledge, and reason, to be reasonable and change for the betterment of the unit, and they're typically being arrogant when they don't agree, needs to be backed down or they need to walk.

I don't think disagreement qualifies as arrogance. Differences of approach, personality, and opinion are often the cause. But altogether I agree with your outlook on this.

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

By the way, Harrow, being in command is NOT a popularity contest, and bloody few people are capable of being both a good friend AND a good commander.You know those checklists you can find all over the place online that can help you determine whether you're right to run a business or not? If there were one for running a mercenary unit online, you'd have ALMOST all of the blocks checked that say yes, you're capable. Keep working at it, buddy.

This whole quote seems intended to offend my pride in order to provoke a response. By baiting me you hope to illicit a retort regarding my qualifications as a leader. Should I post my resume in my profile?

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

FINAL EDIT: Arrogance is NOT a bad thing, all the time, it is not evil, and it's not a bad word. Who do you think runs the corporations, the governments, the police and fire services, the military, etc.? Arrogant people who know what they're doing, for the most part.

Well at least now I know we're both conservatives...

[EDIT: Oh and respond if you want to, or not, I'm finished with the conversation so the board can cool down.]

Edited by Harrow, 02 February 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Habokku]

I can't speak for anyone else, nor am I going to try to in regard to this.

I'm taking a 'wait and see' attitude for the moment, as I fully intend to play under the banner of the Gray Death Legion once this game drops if it's allowed. I've run GDL in previous incarnations of Mechwarrior computer games in online leagues and had *an absolute blast* doing so. I want to continue to have fun this way, meeting friends I've known for years on the virtual battlefield as well as getting to know new friends as well.

I don't see why we (Myself and the guys playing with me) can't form a company or two of pilots under the GDL banner, using a paint scheme for our 'mechs similar to that used by the Legion. None of us are going to take any cannon pilot names, we're just going to play the part of the Legion when we're fighting.

Sure we can have a backup plan of being the Grey (not Gray) Death Legion and roll with it that way, but I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get more info.

Sufficient to say, we'll see what happens when the time comes. In the mean time, let folks fly whatever banner they want. It doesn't hurt anyone, unless you choose to let it bother you, and if you do so choose to do that then all I can offer is the time honored addage of: Get over it.

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Threat Doc]

Harrow, on 02 February 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Well you said you were "disappointed in everyone who doesn't agree with..." so i got the wrong impression. But how does one fan 'earn' anything more than another. As i've said before, so many people not represented here right now, but will most likely be playing the game, have just as great, or better, 'resumes' if you want to call them that then any of the rest of us. Don't see how anyone is more 'deserving'.

First, don't misquote me... I said "I've read a good deal of this, and I'm disappointed in every member of this community other than those who agree "it is what it is". You're calling these other commanders arrogant, you're calling me arrogant..." and I meant what I said. It's not about anyone disagreeing with me, that's inevitable. It is what it is, and if you're making such a stink about it, then obviously you need to do something about it other than throwing words around.

How does one fan 'earn' anything more than another ~ Time in service.

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Let's back up a bit here, no one questioned your capability. It was the appropriateness of using a canon unit name within the setting that the much broader MW:O community represents.

And I was using my capability as a leader to express what some, if not most, or all, of these other leaders also possess that makes them a leader. They know the canon unit doesn't belong to them, but that's where their love has been forever, in that canon unit, and they've worked their way up to commanding that unit. Do you know where leaders come from in societies that have never had leadership, before? From the very same crowd everyone else is standing in. Who was George Washington before he was General Washington? Who was Ghandi before he was, well... Ghandi? They were no one. They simply had the chutzpah to step forward and begin providing guidance, whether they had any leadership experience or not and, voila, you have the world as it's been shaped today. Everyone starts somewhere, and those that have these leadership positions, if they weren't just put into them by others, earned their way into them, even if they had to appoint themselves to do it.

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Every great leader I have been fortunate to meet was humble and never displayed arrogance, with or without cause. So many of the people we call 'leaders' these days are so lacking in this department.

The problem is those people don't generally step forward to lead, so you have the leaders we have, now. If those other people, whom I agree could be our greatest leaders, were actually great leaders, they would see the need and fill it. I, on the other hand, have come across the greatest people I've ever known in my life, and they came into leadership positions for just that reason; they saw a need, they filled it, and their leadership -again, arrogance is NOT a bad word, though it more often than not has a bad connotation- was every bit as good as those good and humble souls who would only take leadership if they were pressed into it.

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I run a five year old guild of 200+ members, that will be transitioning from another game into this one, does that count?

If they're steady and have been with you for some time, then you bet that counts. If they follow you, or at least hang with you, and you don't have to be an ***** with them to get them to do anything, then you're even in better shape. Of course, in the transition, is their activity going to be stunted by the changes in rules from their old game to MWO?

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I never said 'no one was capable of being my commander'. Again, this was never about you or anyone else abilities as a leader. Its about the use of canon names by player made groups. And my attitude is conviction, not arrogance.

Really? Those two words can be pretty synonymous; you have to watch yourself pretty closely on the distinction, because you came across as arrogant by my standards. And, again, I know you weren't challenging anyone's abilities, you were challenging the right of someone to appoint themself to helm a canon unit in BattleTech. That requires leadership, hence the conversation; therefore, in essence, you are challenging everyone who has decided to helm a canon unit. (holds arms up and wide and grins) And here we are!

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I don't think disagreement qualifies as arrogance. Differences of approach, personality, and opinion are often the cause. But altogether I agree with your outlook on this.

Okay, but do you understand how it's "right" for another individual to take command of a canon unit, whether in the previous MechWarrior CG iterations or here? It DOES fall to leadership, and leadership requires Confidence, Competence, Conviction, and Arrogance to succeed; each word, if you put them each on a 1-100 scale, may be less or more than another word, but these are the qualities it takes to lead, and in leading the arrogance, if normally behind the other qualities, will come around and grab your head when it comes to putting together the things you want. It should be added that there is a fifth quality... selfishness. This quality, in a leader -and it IS a quality- can push them to do things they normally wouldn't do, to commit to helming a canon unit, for instance, because they have a love for it, and want to see it commanded right, in accordance with their understanding of how the canon unit would run. If everyone thought of themselves as arrogant, and understood it as a bad quality, nothing would ever get done on planet Earth, or in our games.

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This whole quote seems intended to offend my pride in order to provoke a response. By baiting me you hope to illicit a retort regarding my qualifications as a leader. Should I post my resume in my profile?

That was actually NOT my intent. Rather, it's designed to get you to see that these people who've arrogantly -as a negative connotation- taken command of a canon unit, which they may not be allowed to command after MWO launches but they've done it nonetheless, in an attempt to point out they do not have the right. I say, not only do they have the right, but they have a responsibility to seize on the opportunity, to boldly step forward and commit, as leaders, to running these elements so they will not be taken over by twitch-mongers and 15-year-olds who arrogantly -again, negative connotation- believe they can do it without any training or experience whatsoever.

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Well at least now I know we're both conservatives...

[EDIT: Oh and respond if you want to, or not, I'm finished with the conversation so the board can cool down.]

That's too bad... I thought we were sharing a wonderful debate and conversation about why these canon units are commanded by these arrogant people.

[Jack Gallows]

Canon unit names will most likely be first come first serve, assuming when they're made available (or not, some will be locked I reckon.)

It's going to boil down to, even if group A has been (for example only) the Wolf's Dragoons and are really good at command/role delegation and strategy, jim bob logs in and snags the name first, even if he squanders it, is entitled to the name just as much as group A.

And we're pretty just going to have to deal with it. I will say, I'm thankfully creating my own custom unit and while it won't be able to be put into game at launch, they said they'd like to add them after. I'll just be a faction player till then, and wish you all the best of luck to be able to log in faster then someone else who wants your name.

[Threat Doc]

The only thing I'm worried about is making sure I get to keep my own fanon unit name, and I think we've more or less locked that in by registering on this thread -> http://mwomercs.com/...merc-corp-page/

[Jack Gallows]

Kay Wolf, on 02 February 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

The only thing I'm worried about is making sure I get to keep my own fanon unit name, and I think we've more or less locked that in by registering on this thread -> http://mwomercs.com/...merc-corp-page/

Probably shouldn't have too big of a problem with that. I'll be announcing my own custom fan unit here in the next couple of days, and I'm not super worried about anyone taking it (as I've never seen anyone come close to copying it.) Best of luck and good hunting

[MarauderHI]

This topic cracks me up. Some of these units have been around for almost 2 decades and have been recognized by the powers that be, or were. If you look at the houses, there is already a command structure in place, in the case of the House Steiner, including an Archon. In most cases this structure will be recognized by enough people, that have played BT/MW for a long time, that it will be legitimate just for that reason. In some cases people that come on here with their own agenda and no thought for what has gone on in these games for many years will quickly find themselves out in the cold community wise. Someone happened to mention BlackHearts earlier in this thread. As that is proudly my unit (and i'm sure Starkiller won't mind) I would politely ask you to leave us out of this discussion. If someone wants to use our unit name that we have been using, in and out of the BT/MW world for 15 years, you are welcome to come and try to take it. If you guys really want some good info go and look at some of the websites that are around. BH, House Steiner, House Kurita, Kell Hounds, just to name a few. Maybe ,when you see the history behind some of these units, you will understand a little more why they think they have the right to those units and names.