202 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

Dihm, on 01 February 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Without hands you can't pick up the severed limb of your opponent and club them in the face with it. That would make life an infinately more depressing experience.

Hands/manipulators are incredibly useful. Don't get hung up on the fact that they haven't been functional in 20th/21st century video games. They're highly functional in the canon of Battletech.

"All that canon is not gold" . Midichlorians are technically canon, too.

I still can't quite wrap my hand around the whole punching thing. Human punching works because it's hard tissue meeting soft tissue at speeds, so while the same amount of energy is delivered to both, the soft tissue gives way (and that's why you'll hurt your hand if you punch an area of hard tissue, like the forehead, even if it's you initiating the attack). Mechs are all (barring a cockpit hit, which in turn is unlikely because of how sluggishly it was established they move, a mech punch would be quite anemic for its size, considering their torso twist speeds) armored, hard matter. It's like hitting a brick wall with a brick, except that your brick is thinner (mech "fingers" vs. armor plating).

They're not nimble ninja robots, they're more like ponderous, walking tanks, and tanks don't ram each other - for good reason. It's simply faster and delivers more, and more centralized energy (which makes it more destructive, like the side of a blunt object vs. the point of the knife) to just shoot your gun...

I understand some utility use for giant hands, but mech punching... meh. I'm starting to suspect that part of the reason why it's not in games is because how implausible it would look if actually animated, instead of just described. The Transformers for example, known for engaging in semi-effective fisticuffs, look somewhat plausible while doing so because they otherwise move exactly like "huge humans". With the established way of mech movement, a fistfight of two would look like forklifts awkwardly trying to hug.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[BlueDog]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Yeah, I know, but...

It was said (in different words) that the point of those new redesigns was partly to weed out some of the 80's-fueled nonsense. Using one of the most flawed designs (one lifted directly from a different franchise to boot) as a precedent isn't exactly helping, because someone could take it seriously...

"I want my mech to have mammaries, child-bearing hips and bat wings. Erinyes have them". Ughhhh.

Okay... What I would like to see 'mech hands in MWO used for are things like carrying mission objective items and melee, not carrying guns like the old Battlemaster design. Hope that clears things up for you.

Edited by BlueDog, 01 February 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[Tyzh]

Kommunist Kodiak, on 31 January 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

If they add fists to any other mech they need to lose em. Fists are for Transformers, Not Frickin mechs

I just want to point out that your allegiance icon is a fist.

[Chuckie]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

I still can't quite wrap my hand around the whole punching thing. Human punching works because it's hard tissue meeting soft tissue at speeds, so while the same amount of energy is delivered to both, the soft tissue gives way (and that's why you'll hurt your hand if you punch an area of hard tissue, like the forehead, even if it's you initiating the attack). Mechs are all (barring a cockpit hit, which in turn is unlikely because of how sluggishly it was established they move, a mech punch would be quite anemic for its size, considering their torso twist speeds) armored, hard matter. It's like hitting a brick wall with a brick, except that your brick is thinner (mech "fingers" vs. armor plating).

You do realize that the cockpits are thin metal with only a clear aluminium or bullet proof glass between the pilot and the world..

IN that case I think a mech punch would easily take out a pilot...and what is a Mech without a pilot..?

[Alex Wolfe]

Chuckie, on 01 February 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

You do realize that the cockpits are thin metal with only a clear aluminium or bullet proof glass between the pilot and the world..

IN that case I think a mech punch would easily take out a pilot...and what is a Mech without a pilot..?

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Mechs are all (barring a cockpit hit, which in turn is unlikely because of how sluggishly it was established they move(...)) armored, hard matter.

Yup.

If you're at the range when you can afford to command your mech to raise an arm, then twist the torso to the side (as I've yet to see a mech that could convincingly put its arm in front of its chest, so the torso would have to spin instead for a "hook", or the arm risen way back for a "straight", taking a long time as well), and connect with the cockpit at an angle that doesn't make it slide off the armor to the sides of it (chicken walkers seem easy, but the actualy "head" is mostly torso-grade-armored and the cockpit is about the size of eyes, vide Atlas. On a near miss, it's your arm armor that would give way, not the solid torso armor you hit), or become stuck on the other mech's arm...

...just pull the trigger instead? Faster.

Again, with their torso twist speeds, arm articulation and general agility, how do you actually portray a mech throwing a punch? Not a picture, but an actual movement? Right now it's more akin to crane operation, unless the devs would mess around with speed values, from the ground up.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 06:17 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

That must be the single silliest and most glaringly out of place unseen design... "Most mechs have fists or guns. This one has hands that hold a gun! Infinite redundancy for double the price!".
It even has a clip. Grossness.

Well, technically speaking it makes maintenance/repair or replacing the weapon a lot easier. There's no real reason to rely on screws and slot fixation if the 'Mech has hands anyways and can just as well use his damn fingers to grab the thing.

A magazine does sound pretty silly, though, I'll give you that. Assuming this implies in-field reloads by the 'Mech and not back at the base.

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

"All that canon is not gold" . Midichlorians are technically canon, too.

And a lot of people don't bother reading up on that sort of stuff and in doing so miss the fact that Midichlorians are merely a biological indicator of the presence of the Force, not the source or origin.

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Mechs are all (barring a cockpit hit, which in turn is unlikely because of how sluggishly it was established they move, a mech punch would be quite anemic for its size, considering their torso twist speeds) armored, hard matter. It's like hitting a brick wall with a brick, except that your brick is thinner (mech "fingers" vs. armor plating).
They're not nimble ninja robots, they're more like ponderous, walking tanks, and tanks don't ram each other - for good reason.

Tanks don't ram each other because doing so would hurt their own crew. By the year 3050, mankind has solved the issue of kinetic energy compensation by means of Future Space Science™.
And just so you know, tanks ramming other tanks actually happened in WW2 in a few isolated cases where Allied tank crews realized their guns couldn't penetrate the armour of German Tigers.

Also, consider that whilst a 'Mech attacking another 'Mech is not very nimble, this goes for the target as well, so it kinda evens itself out in terms of hitting/dodging. I also suggest to keep in mind that not everything on a 'Mech is actually armoured, and whilst it stands to reason that fingers would consist of 50-90% armour (as the only thing not having to be armour is the joint), this certainly does not apply to a target's weapons or sensor modules. A well-placed punch in the enemy's shoulder-mounted SRM box can potentially really ruin his day - worst thing that could happen for the attacker is that he loses his hand or a bit of arm.

Lastly, I suggest you watch a bit of RobotJox or Robot Wars. It's pretty much Battletech the movies.





Finally, however... as has been pointed out, it's less about punching each other but more about performing other useful activities such as impromptu repairs and construction or mobility assist or capturing and carrying strategic objectives. Funny thing is, I myself actually dislike designs with hand actuators as well (!), but I do realize their usefulness and as such their place in the setting. One of the good bits about BT is that everyone should find a 'Mech somewhere that applies to one's personal preferences. There's no need to have everything conform to it, though, especially where it makes sense not doing so.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 01 February 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Gorith]

I believe it has been stated that there WILL be melee in the game... as for all the physics of punching something that likely did not enter into the equation when they were making BT. what factored in? It sounds cool, looks cool when mentaly visualized, and is hard enough to pull off it has that OH S*** factor.

Also without hands how will my Axeman pull the axe I just burried into your cockpit out?

[Alex Wolfe]

Kyone Akashi, on 01 February 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

And a lot of people don't bother reading up on that sort of stuff and in doing so miss the fact that Midichlorians are merely a biological indicator of the presence of the Force, not the source or origin.

When faced with a fan outrage at a questionable decision, retcon everything. First of all, a story should stand on its own merits - you're not supposed to be forced to read to understand a movie; and midichlorians are never heard from or of after Ep1. Everything written about afterwards it is pretty much a dementi issued to blanket GL's questionable choice to de-mistify the Force. "Calm down, it's not what he meant! Please continue liking our stuff, and we will never mention it again!"

Kyone Akashi, on 01 February 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Also, consider that whilst a 'Mech attacking another 'Mech is not very nimble, this goes for the target as well, so it kinda evens itself out in terms of hitting/dodging. I also suggest to keep in mind that not everything on a 'Mech is actually armoured, and whilst it stands to reason that fingers would consist of 50-90% armour (as the only thing not having to be armour is the joint), this certainly does not apply to a target's weapons or sensor modules. A well-placed punch in the enemy's shoulder-mounted SRM box can potentially really ruin his day - worst thing that could happen for the attacker is that he loses his hand or a bit of arm.

Well, fair enough about tanks ramming out of desperation, mech ramming or DoA - I'm fine with. Same with attacking weapons to wreck the barrels and whatnot - sure, potentially plausible, still don't see how would it be a better option than shooting the same point. All good points. It's puching as a reliable mode of attack that bothers me. I know it was made to be cool, but it's... problematic.

An arm has a weak point at every joint, it's not just an issue of armor being thinner (it also is). You're hitting a somewhat monolithic wall (chest armor plating) harder than your attacking object that's comprised of many small parts, thus riddled with weak points, hoping to *maybe* hit the tiny weak point (cockpit), breach it and cause damage, risking taking damage yourself otherwise and exposing yourself to... well, being shot during the whole gymnastics. What?

Lastly, if we agree that mechs aren't too nimble, so one mech cannot reliably dodge, but the other one cannot reliably attack either. The sensible option? Shoot the slow moving target with fast moving bullets, rather than duking it out like two metal mummies.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Korbyn McColl]

It's been years since I've read the original game book for BT, but as memory serves, Mechs began as industrial machines. The neurohelm combined with the myomer muscles basically allowed manufacturers to create giant humanoid robots that could react with near perfect responses to the pilot's thought patterns. For this reason, they were built with hands. It was much easier for an operator to pick up a 5 ton steel girder and place it when piloting an industrial mech than it was for a driver operating a crane.

The earliest battlemechs were weaponized versions of these mechs. Which is why most battlemechs have hands.

To me, the mechs without hands or with multiple legs (or worse yet, the LAMs) seem awkward. The less humanoid a mech is, the more difficult it should be for the mechwarrior to be able to pilot it. There are exceptions, of course. The Warhammer is just plain badass. But it's the neurohelm interface that makes BattleTech and MechWarrior stand out from other mech games. And it's something I never want to see change.

Edited by Devil Man, 01 February 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Alex Wolfe, on 01 February 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

When faced with a fan outrage at a questionable decision, retcon everything. First of all, a story should stand on its own merits - you're not supposed to be forced to read to understand a movie; and midichlorians are never heard from or of after Ep1. Everything written about it is pretty much a dementi issued to blanket GL's questionable choice to de-mistify the Force.

Actually, midichlorians existed before EP1 and were mentioned after it, too. Just not everywhere. That said, only fans would actually go into rage because of this, and of fans it can be expected to inform themselves, even if only by reading up on the basics on Wookieepedia in case they don't want to analyze the various sources.

Imho, whilst I certainly agree that Midis were pretty unnecessary, I just can't help to think that the whole debate is a bit pointless. There's other things that are far more critical in terms of setting-consistency. Such as what BioWare did in TOR.

Buuut let's back to BattleTech now.

@ Devil Man: Excellent point regarding the origin of 'Mechs!

[Alex Wolfe]

Kyone Akashi, on 01 February 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Actually, midichlorians existed before EP1 and were mentioned after it, too. Just not everywhere. That said, only fans would actually go into rage because of this, and of fans it can be expected to inform themselves, even if only by reading up on the basics on Wookieepedia in case they don't want to analyze the various sources.

*shocked* But but...

(desperately rummages through wookiepedia)

...phew.

Quote

Midi-chlorians were first conceived by George Lucas as early as 1977. (...) Lucas chose 1999's Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace as the opportunity to first mention the midi-chlorians (...)

Kyone Akashi, on 01 February 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Buuut let's back to BattleTech now.

Let's .

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Dihm]

Devil Man, on 01 February 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

It's been years since I've read the original game book for BT, but as memory serves, Mechs began as industrial machines. The neurohelm combined with the myomer muscles basically allowed manufacturers to create giant humanoid robots that could react with near perfect responses to the pilot's thought patterns. For this reason, they were built with hands. It was much easier for an operator to pick up a 5 ton steel girder and place it when piloting an industrial mech than it was for a driver operating a crane.

The earliest battlemechs were weaponized versions of these mechs. Which is why most battlemechs have hands.

The neurohelment is tracking the sense of balance, there is no commands being given. That's all done in the onboard computer. The pilot targets what they want, hits the "hand, go do stuff" button, and the computer takes over. In some cases it is implied that the neurohelmet can help with what the pilot's "intent" was for the action. It may help the computer determine whether the command was to "crush the ammo bin" or to "pick it up gently without turning it in to bomb".

Edited by Dihm, 01 February 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

XxDRxDEATHxX, on 31 January 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Noooooooooooooooo!

This one is better!

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/


And seriously, what is with all the hand/fist hate? There's a HUGE amount of 'mechs with hands, and it serves the logical purpose a hand would serve a human, even though they're war machines. Just because we can't manipulate them in a video game (or melee in MWO,) doesn't make their original designs null and void. Good example is that Atlas punching the Mad Dog, can't do in a video game...but we can in the table top. So, suck it up and get over the hand issue, really.

If we're forced to wear capes....you're going to see more of this!!

Edited by Jack Gallows, 01 February 2012 - 06:53 AM.

[Leonardo Monteiro]

Ok, so I am in a mech with fists.

Then what? Im going in the middle of an urban landscape trying to "punch" mechs? What is the use?

Seriously, I understand that mechs have hands, that TT allowed for mech melee.. but realistically, in MWO, what will we use "hands" for?
Tactically, I will not allow anyone of you to get close enough to "punch me" - IF i am in a light mech, ill run from you, if I am in a heavy mech, ill alpha you way before.

Sure, might happen once in a while that we DO get close enough, but how rare will that be? And it would make much more sense to have a metal drill than a "hand" for such close encounters.

I just don't see the point, sorry.

Just my opinion.


edit: if you see actual robot competions today, you'll see that they have hammers, chainsaws, or are ramming wedges.. they dont punch each other, even if you could simulate a hand, no one would use one

Edited by Leonardo Monteiro, 01 February 2012 - 06:57 AM.

[Dihm]

You have to get your mind out of the mindset that it appears stuck in. What do YOU use your hands for? Certainly for more than punching. How can people NOT see the use of having giant, super strong hands/grabbers?

[Lysander Davion Steiner]

SCREW YOU ALL NO FISTY CUFF'S PPL IMA HAVING AN AXE MAN AN CALLING HIM GIMLI lol

END TRANSMITION

[Jack Gallows]

Leonardo Monteiro, on 01 February 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Ok, so I am in a mech with fists.

Then what? Im going in the middle of an urban landscape trying to "punch" mechs? What is the use?

In MWO, we won't be punching, so they don't have a use beyond the fact that the 'mechs being given hands in the concept art.....were original designed with hands and should stay that way. What's the point of adding a gun barrel if...the 'mech doesn't have a gun in that arm? Do you want all 'mechs to run around with stubs or something?

Leonardo Monteiro, on 01 February 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Seriously, I understand that mechs have hands, that TT allowed for mech melee.. but realistically, in MWO, what will we use "hands" for?
Tactically, I will not allow anyone of you to get close enough to "punch me" - IF i am in a light mech, ill run from you, if I am in a heavy mech, ill alpha you way before.

If it was allowed in MWO, it'd be something to be afraid of in city fighting. It's not a "I use all the time" kind of weapon. An Atlas hitting you with his fist is like getting pummeled by an AC/10 (or an AC/20 if that 'mech happens to have a melee weapon installed.) If you're out of ammo, weapons are distroyed, or you want a heavy hit to start a close range fight, it's a sure way to make an announcement that you're there.

Leonardo Monteiro, on 01 February 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Sure, might happen once in a while that we DO get close enough, but how rare will that be? And it would make much more sense to have a metal drill than a "hand" for such close encounters.

I just don't see the point, sorry.

Just my opinion.

I'd consider the fact that it's probably cheaper and easier to armor then a metal drill, and has more use then just a weapon. I think I'd want more versatility with my 'mech then having a drill hand. It's about options, and that's kind of the point with 'mechs with hands.

Leonardo Monteiro, on 01 February 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

edit: if you see actual robot competions today, you'll see that they have hammers, chainsaws, or are ramming wedges.. they dont punch each other, even if you could simulate a hand, no one would use one

And they're not 4-5 stories tall, weidling weapon armaments that'd put entire militaries to shame. They don't have the same function as a Battlemech, and can't fill as many roles due to how advanced they are.

[SquareSphere]

Paul Inouye, on 31 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

"LOSE THE FISTS!!!"

No... and in fact.. just for that...

Spoiler

All BattleMechs will now have capes and laser swords. Way to go.. and it's allllll your fault!

I am ok with Capes, but lazor swords?

Physical damage all the way

[AlanEsh]

Aegis Kleais™, on 31 January 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I'm with ya. There's more than enough "artistic license" to redesign these mechs away from their BattleTech designs into designs that don't have fists/hands and still maintain key design cues which strongly suggest the chassis as being one in the same.

Hands are fine, and in fact make sense for a bipedal 3-story tall machine. If you want no hands and no neck, it sounds like World of Tanks would fit your sensibilities better.

[Alex Wolfe]

Angelicon, on 01 February 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Hands are fine, and in fact make sense for a bipedal 3-story tall machine. If you want no hands and no neck, it sounds like World of Tanks would fit your sensibilities better.

No digital 'mech game in history has had a chassis with an in-game movable neck.

You sure this one will fit your sensibilities?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 01 February 2012 - 07:37 AM.