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Why Are We Picking on Commanders?



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#121 Egomane

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:10 AM

I'd like to add my point of view, of what I read in this thread. I want call anybody out. I will just write down my observations.

We have a camp of players who happen to already be in a team environment. Maybe from WoW, or from LoL, WoT or whatever. Those teams always seems to have a command structure. At least from what I read here. This structure is for some units more firm then for others. That's were we get our first dispute.

Dispute 1: How strong should that Commander role be? How much control should he get over the actions of his team mates.

The second camp are "natural leaders". People who have a leadership role in real life or in some other games and maybe even do a damn good job there. These players could be strong leaders in MW:O as well. But, from what I have seen and experienced in my life, a good leader in one task, isn't always a good leader for another. Real life example: You may be a damn good leader of your Air Wing, but you can't grasp how to lead a platoon of foot soldiers into battle. It happens more often then some want to believe. That brings us to dispute number two.

Dispute 2: Should real life leaders, or those of other games, lead in MW:O as well?

Some here come with a real life military experience. What is possible in real life should be possible in a game as well, is their point of view. They know rank, they know structure, they know how to give/follow orders. Does this make them a better team? Maybe! They will form a strong structure pretty fast, but how adaptable are they?

I have seen that the armies of this world, most of the times, have a set way of doing things. There is no room to adapt on short notice and a single soldier, while told to act accordingly to what he believes is the right way, is trained to follow orders to the point. If you disrupt that order, they fall apart and become easy pickings. I have seen manouvers were the mighty U.S. Military (as one example out of many) lost in a training scenario because their way of doing things, the way they have learned to trust their equipment, training and orders given, led them into crushing defeats. I admit, that was some 20 years ago. But while the equipment might have gotten better, the way of training and thinking and believing in their supperiority has not. This leads us to ...

Dispute 3: Is their a right way of leading and is it true in every scenario we might come across?

Those are the three big questions I took from this discussion so far. But I missed a lot of other things.

I know for sure, that most of you are not leaders I want to follow. In fact I don't want to follow anyone except myself. I don't want to be pressed into a fixed group of players with a fixed structure. I want to play with and against as many other players as possible. I don't care if I win or lose. And I firmly believe this will be true for many other players as well. It would be a very lonesome experience, if such a massive game, like MW:O will hopefully be, turns into a "teams/groups/clans/corps only" game. Not everyone wants that and it shouldn't be forced on them, and such players should still be able to play what they want (house, merc or lone wolf). And I don't believe for one second, that the guys at PGI are this shortsighted to miss out on those players.

I want to play a game where a player with the commander role, knows how to handle the tools the game gives him in. Where the scout knows that he shouldn't be in an assault possition and where the defenders stay with their objective. But, I want to play in a game where I and everyone with me, can still do whatever they want, whenever they feel like it and adapt their roles the way they want them to.

If I happen to drop with a player that is specialised in the command role but sucks at it. So be it. I will not attack him for it, I will help him to become better, by giving him some advise from my point of view. If I happen to have a great commander and I suck at my role of scouting (or whatever I am doing that moment) I want him to do the same for me. I want everyone to get better over time in what they want to do. Not to force them into something they might want not.

So I came to the following answers to the disputes
one: The roles are tools at your dispersal not a structure set in stone, that you have to follow to the letter. They should open up possibilities, not restrictions.
two (this answer come in two seperate parts): (part one) Yes, if they want to. But they should never forget that there are more ways of leading then the one they like to employ. (part two) Leadership is not tied to the commander role at all.
three: No, because we are all different, and we all have different goals. In the game as well as in real life. What might work for one group/situation, could be disastrous for others.

You might find other answers for yourself.

Edit:
And Paul... it's up your sleeve!

Edited by Egomane, 03 February 2012 - 06:17 AM.


#122 Jack Gallows

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:15 AM

View PostMason Grimm, on 03 February 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:


I agree and I disagree at the same time.


Yea, what I mean is I don't want leaders based on them just expecting it. Experience is useful, not going to deny that it's valuable, but there's been people who are almost demanding a rank or leadership position, and that's just bad form.

#123 Dlardrageth

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:19 AM

View PostJack Gallows, on 03 February 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:


Yea, what I mean is I don't want leaders based on them just expecting it. Experience is useful, not going to deny that it's valuable, but there's been people who are almost demanding a rank or leadership position, and that's just bad form.


It is actually somewhat humorous as well. So what happens in case of doubt? Are we supposed to pull (past) real life military rank? Does e.g. a former colonel of the Iraqi Republican Guard trump a "lowly" Major of the US Army? That could lead to some quite epic ego-boasting right there... :D

#124 MaddMaxx

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:23 AM

I am surprised to read all these Posts. I must be way more Old School than I thought. When I last played MechWarrior, it was in League play and everyone was a member of one Organization or another. Seems times have changed.

Is Battletech not designed around the Military structures of those we know today? Will the Great Houses not have Brigades/Companies/Lances that all need support and Leadership? Won't House Davion's 145th Hoozaa's Company be seen in full regalia hunting the Battlefields of MWO looking to smite their rivals? If not, then I am glad my Merc unit is gettong back togethor.

When did 7000 LW become the norm? Sounds like the PUG world will need Command units, but I don't think they will need to many Sgt. Gronk types who likes to yell at everyone just to hear himself be heard.

Although this thread does bring up some valid points, it also shines a dim light (at this point) on what was surely to be mature gaming commmunity. If we can't agree to disagree on a Forum, what the hell will happen come launch day, or Beta day?

And yes, you just got told by Grandad to play nice. :D

#125 metro

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:25 AM

hehehehe....

I would like all LRM boats to the front.

All PPC assault mechs behind that mountain over there----------->

All Med laser heavys to the rear.

All AC toting Meds stand out there in the open , yeah...right there.....No.....move a little to the left.....yeah. Right there!! Perfect!!

All recon lights back to the Dropship for super radar powers.


WOOT !

...Thats the ticket! Now I would certainly pay a dollar for that s h i z-nit commander!! :D

Edited by Metro, 03 February 2012 - 06:28 AM.


#126 metro

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:27 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

I am surprised to read all these Posts. I must be way more Old School than I thought. When I last played MechWarrior, it was in League play and everyone was a member of one Organization or another. Seems times have changed.

Is Battletech not designed around the Military structures of those we know today? Will the Great Houses not have Brigades/Companies/Lances that all need support and Leadership? Won't House Davion's 145th Hoozaa's Company be seen in full regalia hunting the Battlefields of MWO looking to smite their rivals? If not, then I am glad my Merc unit is gettong back togethor.

When did 7000 LW become the norm? Sounds like the PUG world will need Command units, but I don't think they will need to many Sgt. Gronk types who likes to yell at everyone just to hear himself be heard.

Although this thread does bring up some valid points, it also shines a dim light (at this point) on what was surely to be mature gaming commmunity. If we can't agree to disagree on a Forum, what the hell will happen come launch day, or Beta day?

And yes, you just got told by Grandad to play nice. :D


You said it Gramps!

#127 SilentObserver

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 08:16 AM

View PostDlardrageth, on 03 February 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:


It is actually somewhat humorous as well. So what happens in case of doubt? Are we supposed to pull (past) real life military rank? Does e.g. a former colonel of the Iraqi Republican Guard trump a "lowly" Major of the US Army? That could lead to some quite epic ego-boasting right there... ;)



Don't forget we also have a house scion and several star colonels. Where do they stack up? :D

<Edit>

Speak of the devil and look one post up.

Edited by SilentObserver, 03 February 2012 - 08:16 AM.


#128 Conradiqlous

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 08:27 AM

From a gameplay perspective, The Devs most definitely won't require you to have any sort of leadership experience. That would just be cruel and unusual for a video game.

#129 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:03 AM

I sort of wish they'd name the role something else at least. Maybe "Operations" or "Tactician" or something along those lines. Something that doesn't imply command or leadership just from the name. I just want to avoid the arguments with all the blow hard who think the name gives them authority.

#130 Kaemon

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:14 AM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 02 February 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I'm going to play as a commander... and if you don't do what I tell you to do, I'm going to shoot you in the back with my OMG-PPC/2000 that has a 97KM range and does 2000 damage to your Mech.

[spoiler]
This is why we have Community Warfare, cause you kids can't play nice together.


This is why we can't have nice things!

There goes old man Inouye, giving all the youngsters a piece of his mind....pass the popcorn please.

#131 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:15 AM

View PostTheRulesLawyer, on 03 February 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I sort of wish they'd name the role something else at least. Maybe "Operations" or "Tactician" or something along those lines. Something that doesn't imply command or leadership just from the name. I just want to avoid the arguments with all the blow hard who think the name gives them authority.

This.

Operations would be good. Or maybe Tactics?

Attacker (not that I think people can't distinguish the assault 'Mechs from the assault role -- attacker just sounds better)
Defender
Operations/Tactics
Recon

#132 Dlardrageth

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:18 AM

I'd vote for Strategos. :D

Has the advantage of avoiding any straight connotations with "command". And "all the blow hard" will be too lazy to look it up. ;)

Edited by Dlardrageth, 03 February 2012 - 09:22 AM.


#133 Kaemon

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:19 AM

View PostTheRulesLawyer, on 03 February 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I sort of wish they'd name the role something else at least. Maybe "Operations" or "Tactician" or something along those lines. Something that doesn't imply command or leadership just from the name. I just want to avoid the arguments with all the blow hard who think the name gives them authority.


combat engineer?

maybe just officer, then we'd know we can safely ignore them.

:D

Edited by Kaemon, 03 February 2012 - 09:20 AM.


#134 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

View PostDlardrageth, on 03 February 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I'd vote for Strategos. :D

Has the advantage of avoiding any straight connotations with "command". And "all the blow hard" will be too lazy to look it up. ;)


Maybe. I'd still rather avoid real ranks though.

#135 Dlardrageth

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:33 AM

View PostTheRulesLawyer, on 03 February 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:


Maybe. I'd still rather avoid real ranks though.


Might be counterproductive though to make up completely new names for each role that are not founded in BT canon or anywhere else. Which you naturally would have to explain to every new player. Only thing that might work there I can spontaneously think of is playing card symbols. Club, spade, heart and diamond. Still sounds a bit outlandish though.

#136 Name140704

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

I'm not as concered about this as some of the other good peeps here. They're most likely modeling the commander role after the BF:2142/BF3 style. That might help clear up some of the anxiety about the role. The commander role in the BF games gets added specific map functions that the other players do not. Control of the radar sweep, where bombardments get (almost) placed, and the ability to relay enemy positions found by the radar sweep to the troops.

That's pretty much it. If you're not playing in a competitive league or other environment, having a person who is new or bad at playing commander won't break you. It won't really even slow the tempo. The real success on the ground comes from intelligent choices made by the attackers and defenders, with help from the scouts. Should the role be as it was in the BF series your commander points out things you didn't see, and will be able to support in adding, not controlling information.

My concern will be with scouts who think they can gung-ho the place and not get the useful info out. This game is no respawn and that makes the little guys a lot more important.

#137 MrFancypants

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:44 AM

View PostTheRulesLawyer, on 02 February 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

They're all just afraid of having some yahoo telling them what to do on the battlefield. Its a legitimate concern if people choosing that class start thinking that gives them the right to boss everyone around.

Agreed.
I am suspicious of a commander role. The only time I have seen this work is in clans. In open, unorganized gameplay these concepts usually fail.

As long as a commander is just like any other role, i.e. he gets some skills which don't give him more of an edge relatiev to other roles, I don't see a problem with this though. It is just a different way to play the game and having more opportunities for that is usually a good thing.

But if it is designed an actual leader role which issues commands to other players I don't think this will work out too well in public matches.

#138 MaddMaxx

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:46 AM

How about TactOps? Kinda combines two element that a Commander would do without providing the bloated ego angle directly.

#139 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:48 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

How about TactOps? Kinda combines two element that a Commander would do without providing the bloated ego angle directly.


I like it. Sounds sexy, but without the bloat.

#140 MaddMaxx

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:51 AM

View PostTheRulesLawyer, on 03 February 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:


I like it. Sounds sexy, but without the bloat.


And not to toot my own horn here but (toot toot) if the position was called TactOps, I might even be more willing to give the seat a go every now and again.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 09:51 AM.






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