558 replies to this topic

[Vicious29]

You can't say mechwarriors without WAR in it, and if such a war existed you can bet your rear end the enemy would be shooting at your legs to win, fighting to win, not for sport or honor. Its mech_warriors, not chivalrous_mech_sport_shooters.

I will be shooting for your arms and legs and I expect any other mechWARrior to do the same to me. Not just to kill but to salvage when/if possible.

Mechwarriors whining about getting legged, might as well be fighter pilots whining about having an enemy on their 6 and getting their tail shot off.

Edited by Vicious29, 13 April 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Gun Bear]

Always make sure your mech has shin guards (I almost always put as much armor on my legs as I do my torso)

Chiros, on 23 February 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

As far as i'm concerned, legging is a valid tactic, just like camping, (jump)sniping, or any other tactic that does not exploit glitches/bugs, faulty map desing (getting underground or such). If any of these very effective, that is fault of the game desing, not fault of the players. (That said, it is annoying just like camping and other such tactics... which is why a game should be desinged to make those highly situational or requiring skill to pull them off etc.)

Simply making hitting harder in general will reduce effectiveness of legging (assuming the mechs don't have too large legs) as aiming to torso becomes more desirable. Shooting a damaged leg (or arm for that matter) should not transfer the damage to the other leg or torso. A skilled pilot should be able to mover around with jump jets even when lacking a leg (or both), assuming the jump jets are not in legs.
Losing both legs should not destroy the mech though a player who loses both legs should be given option to surrend/eject without any special penalty (giving kill points to the person who did most damage to you?).

Ideally we should be able to stand with just one leg, some skill and luck, though this would probably require more complicated controls for manual center of balance adjustment, unless the gyro does this automatically. Getting shot should knock you over of course.

Thats right, kick, DFA, shoot 'em in the back, double team them, break their legs... any way you can win in a battle is how you win! Rules are for duels, not wars!

[Savant]

If it gets the job done, do it.

We're not clanners.

[Victor Morson]

Belisarius†, on 13 April 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I remember screwing around with a gajillion-uac2 daishi back in PR1. It was a terrible 'mech, but it was also kind of fun because it did a surprising amount of damage and often players wouldn't even notice you were shooting them.

Those were pretty amusing, and they could score kills I agree. It's just that if a UAC/2 gimmick Daishi ran into another one like my 5 CLRM/20 2 Clan Gauss model.. well, the poor thing. It's kind of like the UAC2 Kraken/Bane in that regard.

Comparing it to the 8 LRM-15 model is just so, so wrong.. 40 versus 120 potential damage with zero jam chance at almost the same range.. it's pretty much a study in the TT AC2's problems.

Edited by Victor Morson, 13 April 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

For me, its like this. I run heavy/assault mechs. I do not have <usually> the ability to turn with the smaller faster 'mechs. If your in that little Firemoth and im in my Warhawk or Direwolf or my beloved Timberwolf, you can bet your life that I WILL rip your legs out from under you. It is fast and effective and keeps me from tripping over myself while you buzz around me like a possesed gnat. As has been said time and again, if it can be shot at, it WILL be shot at. As for how easy it will be? that is on the devs, but I echo everyone before me who agree with being able to leg. Make it easy but not so easy all other tactics are obsolete. Make it hard but not so hard a head shot from 10km is easier. And, as they say: if you dont armor it, you can bet your enemy will notice and go for that first. We are after all paying for missiles, gauss rounds and AC rounds, why waste the money on hardened targets when the more vulnerable stuff yields better results? Also, if you dont wanna be legged? 2 choices: do not play the game OR make your terrain work for you and hide those legs! And just a thought to add, yes we will have a delayed convergance, BUT, nothing says that if they dont see you, you cannot sit there and let your targeting computer compensate and catch up before sending in your alpha strike at a leg.

[The Golden Warrior]

Hmm interesting topic, i guess we'll truely just have to see how this plays out in the game.

[Mr MEAN]

Your Leg is Dead
Your Mech Slams Wildly
Two to the Head
One to the Chest
'Cause Thats MEAN

[SumthinBurnin]

the problem is not the act of legging.
The problem is about people exploiting a weakness that lazy, brain dead game designers put into this game series that never should have been there. Its always been the issue that giant war machine's (not a living being's) with 1 leg shot off are considered dead.


Mechs are more like giant terminators.
They dont stop until totally waisted.
Even with both legs shot off these machines can still move (they have arms) they could still even be a turret. A machine is combat effective as long as it has the ability to fight, until mech game designers come to realize that, these games will never work right.
I doubt that even this game will ever see that vision.

[soulfire]

Yes like the black knight


"tis but a scratch"

[SumthinBurnin]

lol i love this

[Leon Kousenberg]

Wow 18 pages for this thread. Alot of thoughts going into what was a sucks to be you way of getting your mech taken out in mechwarrior games.

However I know I read that a mech will not be taken out from the loss of one leg. Imobilized maybe or slowed down to a crawl. will mean an easier chance to hit the other leg. most likely but at least the wounded mech will be able to continue fighting to the bitter end...

Since I hope that salvage will play a major part in things taking out an enemy mech with the least amount of damage is always preferable to gutting one by destruction of the center torse/engine.

I myself am looking forward to a chance to test out the aiming and everything else in a closed beta, or open beta. I hope that should any of us get into the beta that we do our best to test out the mechanics of legging and targeting specific locations. Give the devs our full support and assistance and if legging is going to be the major problem it was in previous games then let them know of it from actual game results.

Edited by Leon Kousenberg, 14 April 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Victor Morson]

19CJ70, on 14 April 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

the problem is not the act of legging.
The problem is about people exploiting a weakness that lazy, brain dead game designers put into this game series that never should have been there. Its always been the issue that giant war machine's (not a living being's) with 1 leg shot off are considered dead.

Tell us how you really feel.

19CJ70, on 14 April 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Mechs are more like giant terminators.
They dont stop until totally waisted.
Even with both legs shot off these machines can still move (they have arms) they could still even be a turret. A machine is combat effective as long as it has the ability to fight, until mech game designers come to realize that, these games will never work right.
I doubt that even this game will ever see that vision.

You've never played Table Top much then, have you? 'mechs hit the dirt and they're lucky if they can stand without an expert pilot on one leg. They can't crawl, just rotate and prop up.

If anything, past games have given you more options once you hit the ground. MW2 let you jumpjet around, MW4 let you limp and MWLL let you basically swivel around on the ground shooting similar to the prop mechanic.

[Bongo TauKat]

I have no problem with legging in Mechwarrior. In a game where speed is life, of course I want to disable your motive system as fast as possible. The down side is that while your are plinking a leg, the OPFOR is hosing you with his undamaged torso and arm weapons.

[barcode]

In this day and age, I imagine they could reasonably easily follow BT mechanics and make legged 'Mechs stationary (or near-stationary), half-functional turrets. I do understand they intend to follow a "destroy both legs to destroy the mech" design, but I think they could do this and get by just fine (if not better). Of course, we don't need or want to necessarily follow classic mechanics exactly, but with disabled enemies still being threatening if properly supported from their other sides, team matches could naturally shift in focus towards torso shots.

I trust their judgement regardless; they're the ones playing, they're the most likely to understand if their system (whatever it is) is workable or not. The only situation I would definitely be displeased in, however, is if legging becomes a better choice overall due to salvage only being possible with leg-disable kills (as it was in Mechwarrior 3; and, of course, only if salvage is a mechanic in MWO).

Edited by barcode, 14 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Taelon Zero]

Can you think of a better way to beat a 100ton mech with only a 35ton?

[Steamroller Stig]

I think it should be

leg critical, 70 percent mobilty penalty for MW4 in addition to being twice as easy to knock down
both legs critical 90 percent mobility penalty in addition to being tree times as easy to knock down
leg destroyed, demobilized in the dirt MW2

but god forbid the

leg destroyed, mech kabooms for some reason.

[WraithTR1]

Do it like in the original Mechwarrior. If the leg is destroyed you fall. Try and stand back up and if you do you have little to no mobility, but can still remain a threat for anything that comes within your sights. Second leg destroyed it's game over.

[Jason Phoenix]

Vicious29, on 13 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

You can't say mechwarriors without WAR in it, and if such a war existed you can bet your rear end the enemy would be shooting at your legs to win, fighting to win, not for sport or honor. Its mech_warriors, not chivalrous_mech_sport_shooters.

I will be shooting for your arms and legs and I expect any other mechWARrior to do the same to me. Not just to kill but to salvage when/if possible.

Mechwarriors whining about getting legged, might as well be fighter pilots whining about having an enemy on their 6 and getting their tail shot off.

What he says +1

Legging is one of the many ways to get rid of a Mech. As is Head Shot, Blowing Ammo or the Engine. So what if they prevent Leggings, next in line will be no Head Shot's ? Then what... No Ammo nor Engine explosions ?!?

Why those against Legging dont just go play Farmville or something of the like where you cant actually loose a fight...

[Zylo]

Jason Phoenix, on 14 April 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

What he says +1

Legging is one of the many ways to get rid of a Mech. As is Head Shot, Blowing Ammo or the Engine. So what if they prevent Leggings, next in line will be no Head Shot's ? Then what... No Ammo nor Engine explosions ?!?

Why those against Legging dont just go play Farmville or something of the like where you cant actually loose a fight...

I really wonder how much of the anti-legging feelings come from the old MW2 days where you had to try different lead distances until the enemy mech started taking damage. Once you got legged, you couldn't hide in the lag anymore once you stopped moving although you could still move a bit if you had jumpjets. People hated legging back then because they were at a huge disadvantage without the "lag shield" that any moving mech would get back in the days of most players being on dialup.

I think people are just concerned about something that won't be as much of an issue. If players want to go for the legs of their enemy that's their choice but I suspect the tactic won't be nearly as effective while that enemy mech cuts their mech's arms off slowing the amount of damage going into the legs. I don't think this will be "fire anywhere close to the leg to hit" style of legging like MW2 either. I suspect it will require many hits to a small area to leg a mech, making it only slightly easier than a headshot.

I think legging will be most common against small mechs to make them easier to hit while a small mech that already has a movement speed advantage won't gain as much by trying to leg an assault mech first vs taking arms off and then legging. I suspect many small mechs will die fast if they try to take off an assault mech's legs while it still has both arms.

[Logahmmed]

Okay, some things are annoying me:

-- "This is war" -- it's also a video game. While yes, we enjoy war "simulators," it's still a video game, and video games are supposed to be fun. Legging, when the game allows for it to be utilized so easily, ruins the fun. Not acknowledging that will result in casual gamers fleeing, reduced revenue for MW:O, and a lower likelihood of our favorite game having an extended product cycle.You trying to be badass does not help anything but your own ego. We're trying to keep this series alive and thriving, not just alive for the hardcore.

Chromehounds didn't compromise at all in their war simulator. Where are they now? Let's do the math and calmly acknowledge, without trying to puff our chests out, that legging is a potential game balancing issue.

-- Legging is GOING to happen. In MW3, it COULD BE a cheap tactic, absolutely, the equivalent of Zerg rushing in Starcraft. Yes, you can stop it, yes, you can do it back, but at that point, is anyone really having fun or are they fighting just to shove it in someone's face?

-- It's also a valid tactic. If I'm in a Puma and I've got a Dire Wolf barrelling down at me, I'm gonna bite its ankles and try to keep it away from me.

Now, there're a couple of major solutions --

1: Destruction of legs don't = destruction of 'Mech. Take out one leg, it's limping. Take out two, it's immobile. If immobile, once it's knocked down, it doesn't get up and someone can just shoot your 'Mech while you're down.

2: Armor up the legs. Others have said above that it would make logical sense for 100-ton walking tank to have a whole bunch of armor on the legs, if only because it's load-bearing and needs the weight down there. Of course, armoring it up too much and you basically turn legs into either invulnerable, or so well armored that you'll never see a limping 'Mech in the game. That's not good, either.

But that's where, I think, game balancing comes into play: mix the two. I don't think anyone's going to be upset if we have it to where a leg's destruction = 'Mech destruction. Legging is an issue because we'll have arms blown off and that's fine, but a leg blown off and we're dead? Players have a hard time accepting that the destruction of an extremity = the destruction of the body.

But if you armor the legs up a bit more than is strictly "canon," and, while having legging cause some serious problems for the 'Mech, not having it result in a quick path to a kill, but rather having it affect mobility (which, in my estimation, does make legging significantly more valid in the eyes of the larger player base), would keep a happy middle ground. Legging would greatly assist you in defeating your enemy, particularly if you need that sucker moving just a little slower so you can get your guns around to it, but in and of itself you can't alpha-strike a leg and kill someone.

I see a happy middle ground here.