51 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Don't forget that people will have to give up the tonnage/space from something else to do that,

[KitLightning]

The AMS/LAMS should be tied to the Radars status (i.e. Active or Passive) so that if switched off, the AMS/LAMS will no longer have any "eyes and ears" to locate hostile missiles.

The AMS/LAMS should also have a minor intelligence added to it, meaning a selective targeting system where the missiles homing in on the owner of the AMS/LAMS gains higher priority than others inbound missiles

Though the ability to switch the AMS/LAMS off during scout runs would surely be appreciated, there is nothing like scouting and seeking out cover from hostiles, only for your AMS//LAMS to visually broadcast the location.

[GUNMENKILL]

KitLightning, on 03 February 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

The AMS/LAMS should be tied to the Radars status (i.e. Active or Passive) so that if switched off, the AMS/LAMS will no longer have any "eyes and ears" to locate hostile missiles.

The AMS/LAMS should also have a minor intelligence added to it, meaning a selective targeting system where the missiles homing in on the owner of the AMS/LAMS gains higher priority than others inbound missiles

Though the ability to switch the AMS/LAMS off during scout runs would surely be appreciated, there is nothing like scouting and seeking out cover from hostiles, only for your AMS//LAMS to visually broadcast the location.

[Durant Carlyle]

Anti-Missile Systems (Laser or regular) can only target missile salvos that are specifically targeted at your 'Mech. That's it. AMS ammo (and in the case of LAMS, heat capacity) is precious, and they expend far too much of it per salvo to be practical in targeting missiles aimed at an ally.

[Nasty McBadman]

Just an idea, maybe if you get an ECM equiped scout in close to an enemy with AMS, your allies will be able to hit better with more missles due to the ECM jamming the AMS or something.

[Rayge]

I think a lot of people are worried about this because of the LAMS in MWLL...

LAMS is post-clan invasion level tech, iirc. Normal AMS will have limited ammunition, but won't 'broadcast' your location nearly as badly as the LAMS. I like the idea of AMS being pretty 'meh' at the start, but 'defender' mechs getting some pretty powerful upgrades. makes total sense.

[MaddMaxx]

A tad foggy on this one. Can you even add ammo to the AMS in MW4 or is it just ad add-on system like ECM etc etc. If so the weight factor may be problematic.

Imagine a Lance full of AMS systems intercepting the first 15 Volleys of enemy Mechs. Makes a Support Missile Mech pointless really. It is a System that could be Gamed if found to be somewhat cheap to install and powerful when used in bulk.

I do believe the Lock has to be on your Mech to have the system be live though. (can't find any really good info on Sarna on it though)

[VYCanis]

except if you've got players that have expended that much tonnage overall dedicated towards becoming highly resistant to missiles, not letting them actually be resistant to missiles becomes quite a bit of a cop out.

Besides, if an enemy is entrenched with assaults and heavies packing close range firepower in an area that limits mobility, do you send lights mechs in and say its unbalanced when that fails?

If the enemy is in nothing but lights and your's is in nothing but assaults, is it unbalanced when your force gets pecked to death at range and outflanked constantly?

well, likewise it should be just as bad a decision if you send missile boats against a force of mechs that have obviously decided to cancel out missiles

[Rayge]

I do think that an 'all AMS' force might be a bit OP, but that does depend of course on how they implement it. Of course you wouldn't want it to be worthless either. Non-laser AMS in previous games were only able to stop 2-3 salvos.

Perhaps AMS might be defender-role only?

[MaddMaxx]

VYCanis, on 03 February 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

except if you've got players that have expended that much tonnage overall dedicated towards becoming highly resistant to missiles, not letting them actually be resistant to missiles becomes quite a bit of a cop out.

Besides, if an enemy is entrenched with assaults and heavies packing close range firepower in an area that limits mobility, do you send lights mechs in and say its unbalanced when that fails?

If the enemy is in nothing but lights and your's is in nothing but assaults, is it unbalanced when your force gets pecked to death at range and outflanked constantly?

well, likewise it should be just as bad a decision if you send missile boats against a force of mechs that have obviously decided to cancel out missiles

You didn't answer the question? What does a AMS weigh, can you add ammo and what chassis have them built in and selectable. Going by previous games, the system is not widely available to all Mechs just like ECM, BAP etc. MechLab may change that though. The same way it may change a Wolfhound into a 7ML laser nightmare...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Rayge]

MaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

You didn't answer the question? What does a AMS weigh, can you add ammo and what chassis have them built in and selectable. Going by previous games, the system is not widely available to all Mechs just like ECM, BAP etc. MechLab may change that though. The same way it may change a Wolfhound into a 7ML laser nightmare...

I really don't forsee a full mechlab scenario. Don't forget that we're starting out with inner-sphere only. Clan Omni-mechs were a lot more adaptable, and that's one of the many advantages that the Clan had on the IS. I 'would' like to see a MW4 'limited lab' scenario where you could tinker with the mech settings with certain restrictions.

I also agree that in the past you couldn't just slap AMS onto every mech. AMS really seems to be the territory of the Defender role, imo.

[Durant Carlyle]

AMS can be installed on any 'Mech, but few designers devote valuable tonnage to questionably-effective systems like that. Even when they work, they shoot down few missiles. And to reiterate ... they CANNOT shoot down missiles that aren't targeted at your 'Mech. The system is semi-intelligent and will not target missiles unless they are locked onto your 'Mech. Also, AMS/LAMS can only engage one missile salvo at a time.

The AMS weighs 0.5 tons and requires one critical slot. Each ton of AMS ammo has 12 shots, but each time the AMS engages, it uses a variable amount of ammo. It might use nine shots one time and four shots the next. Yes, you can add however many tons of AMS ammo to your 'Mech if you have the tonnage and critical slots available.

A LAMS weighs 1.0 tons and requires one critical slot. It generates five heat per use for the Clan version, and seven heat per use on the IS version.

[Rayge]

Durant, where are you getting this info? I'm surprised that AMS won't shoot down missiles headed to friendies.

[Strum Wealh]

Rayge, on 03 February 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Durant, where are you getting this info? I'm surprised that AMS won't shoot down missiles headed to friendies.

Durant is right on the tonnage and ammo capacity (TechManual, pg. 204), I think the part about firing on any nearby missile volleys is, at the very least, suspect.

"Anytime a missile weapon makes a successful to-hit attack against a unit carrying an AMS, and the missile weapon strikes in the attack direction covered by the firing arc where the AMS is mounted, the AMS will automatically engage with the following results..."
(Total Warfare, pg. 129)

This makes it sound like the AMS only engages if the missile(s) in question a.) are specifically targeted at the 'Mech carrying said AMS and b.) are determined by the AMS to present a danger of actually connecting with their intended target.

Also:
"The player cannot choose for the AMS to not engage, as it is always active until it runs out of ammo or is destroyed; 1 shot of ammunition is marked off each time the AMS engages a missile weapon."
(Total Warfare, pg. 130)
If the AMS is essentially a specialized machine gun assembly, I could see "1 shot of ammunition" (equivalent to ~83.33kg or 183.72lbs, from 12 shots per metric ton (1000kg)) as actually representing many individual bullets fired in volleys (12 volleys per ton), such that "1 shot of ammunition" creates a wall/cloud of metal that would/should take out at least some of the missiles.

Your thoughts?

[MaddMaxx]

Strum Wealh, on 03 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Durant is right on the tonnage and ammo capacity (TechManual, pg. 204), I think the part about firing on any nearby missile volleys is, at the very least, suspect.

"Anytime a missile weapon makes a successful to-hit attack against a unit carrying an AMS, and the missile weapon strikes in the attack direction covered by the firing arc where the AMS is mounted, the AMS will automatically engage with the following results..."
(Total Warfare, pg. 129)

This makes it sound like the AMS only engages if the missile(s) in question a.) are specifically targeted at the 'Mech carrying said AMS and b.) are determined by the AMS to present a danger of actually connecting with their intended target.

Also:
"The player cannot choose for the AMS to not engage, as it is always active until it runs out of ammo or is destroyed; 1 shot of ammunition is marked off each time the AMS engages a missile weapon."
(Total Warfare, pg. 130)
If the AMS is essentially a specialized machine gun assembly, I could see "1 shot of ammunition" (equivalent to ~83.33kg or 183.72lbs, from 12 shots per metric ton (1000kg)) as actually representing many individual bullets fired in volleys (12 volleys per ton), such that "1 shot of ammunition" creates a wall/cloud of metal that would/should take out at least some of the missiles.

Your thoughts?

If it was only engaged by missile locks, then dumb firing would be a way around that protective system. hmmm. curiouser and curiouser.

The ammo statement would seem to provide pretty good coverage per ton of space allocated though. If even half of any Volley was knocked out, it would pay for itself quickly.

If unlike MW4, Missiles don't all have those mystic turn radius, and a percentage will miss anyways, then the AMS could be a great defensive tool.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

They must have changed the AMS ammo usage in Total Warfare. The way it originally was is that once you found out the system engaged, and then how many missiles it shot down, you rolled dice to see how much ammo was expended in shooting down those missiles. You could conceivably use nine AMS shots to shoot down two missiles, or use two AMS shots to shoot down 10 missiles.

I don't have all of the books, so I didn't know they changed that.

In any case, it is confirmed that an AMS/LAMS will not engage missiles unless they are targeted at your 'Mech specifically.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 03 February 2012 - 10:50 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Durant Carlyle, on 03 February 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

They must have changed the AMS ammo usage in Total Warfare. The way it originally was is that once you found out the system engaged, and then how many missiles it shot down, you rolled dice to see how much ammo was expended in shooting down those missiles. You could conceivably use nine AMS shots to shoot down two missiles, or use two AMS shots to shoot down 10 missiles.

Ya, RDG's are the Suck.

[Rayge]

Thank you for the links Strum, it is now much more clear. I can see how you could extrapolate from those rules that AMS would only protect the mech who has it equipped, but at the same time I think that it's possible that that was a simplification necessary for the platform. Interesting.

[NotNewHere]

I hope LaserAMS and the ability to have multiple AMS systems is an option in MWO

[Rayge]

LAMS were developed by the Clan in 3045 but not by the IS until 3054 http://www.sarna.net...-Missile_System