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Anti-missile systems - selectable?


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#41 Ranek Blackstone

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 11:09 AM

View PostThe Cheese, on 02 February 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

From memory, you could turn the AMS/LAMS on or off at will in MW3. Is that what you mean? It would be near impossible to choose between incoming missiles and decide which you want to shoot down. Even if you could, why would you ever opt to get shot?


I can kind of see where the OP is coming from here. If 2 salvos are coming at me, one from a SRM2 launcher, and the other from something like a Thunderbolt rack, and my LAMS can't recharge fast enough to take both salvos, I'd rather take down the thunderbolt then have the faster SRMs get defeated and have the thunderbolt plow into me.

#42 Strum Wealh

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 11:10 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:


If it was only engaged by missile locks, then dumb firing would be a way around that protective system. hmmm. curiouser and curiouser.

The ammo statement would seem to provide pretty good coverage per ton of space allocated though. If even half of any Volley was knocked out, it would pay for itself quickly.

If unlike MW4, Missiles don't all have those mystic turn radius, and a percentage will miss anyways, then the AMS could be a great defensive tool.


Well, the BT rules do specify that a "successful to-hot roll" is part of what triggers the AMS.
So, what happens in the event of an unsuccessful to-hit roll (missiles sail past or fall short) - does the AMS still attempt to engage missiles that wouldn't have hit the 'Mech anyway? :D

Also, we know that the AMS won't engage certain weapons, namely artillery (Long Tom, Thumper, and Sniper) and, more to the point, Mech Mortars.
In the case of Mech Mortars, we have the specific statement (from the above-linked Sarna article):
"The munitions used by the mortars, though often possessing limited guidance packages, weren't destroyed by AMS systems in tests."
This statement would seem to imply that the presence of a guidance system plays a role in whether AMS engages.

As such... MRMs are normally unguided, and LRMs and SRMs can fire unguided "dead-fire missiles" in place of their respective standard guided munitions.
Will neither of these systems trigger an AMS? ;)

#43 MaddMaxx

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 11:54 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 03 February 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:


Well, the BT rules do specify that a "successful to-hot roll" is part of what triggers the AMS.
So, what happens in the event of an unsuccessful to-hit roll (missiles sail past or fall short) - does the AMS still attempt to engage missiles that wouldn't have hit the 'Mech anyway? ;)

Also, we know that the AMS won't engage certain weapons, namely artillery (Long Tom, Thumper, and Sniper) and, more to the point, Mech Mortars.
In the case of Mech Mortars, we have the specific statement (from the above-linked Sarna article):
"The munitions used by the mortars, though often possessing limited guidance packages, weren't destroyed by AMS systems in tests."
This statement would seem to imply that the presence of a guidance system plays a role in whether AMS engages.

As such... MRMs are normally unguided, and LRMs and SRMs can fire unguided "dead-fire missiles" in place of their respective standard guided munitions.
Will neither of these systems trigger an AMS? :blink:


One could surmise that a Mortars/LT flight Arc may be outside the AMS AoE cone.

Another thought could be a Mech Pilot hearing the Lock signal, and wanting to save AMS ammo could simply shut down ending the Lock. Or, if they had the Null Sig. Skill (hehehe) activate that to spoof the AMS system and again save ammo for a more desired time. :D

Non-Streak SRM's are unguided no? MRM are I am pretty sure. LRMS' can be fired dumb, but that is a waste of a Lockable weapon system when there are so few in this timeline.

Hmmm. What comes after more curiouser? LOL ;)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 11:54 AM.


#44 Strum Wealh

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:18 PM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:


One could surmise that a Mortars/LT flight Arc may be outside the AMS AoE cone.

Another thought could be a Mech Pilot hearing the Lock signal, and wanting to save AMS ammo could simply shut down ending the Lock. Or, if they had the Null Sig. Skill (hehehe) activate that to spoof the AMS system and again save ammo for a more desired time. :D

Non-Streak SRM's are unguided no? MRM are I am pretty sure. LRMS' can be fired dumb, but that is a waste of a Lockable weapon system when there are so few in this timeline.

Hmmm. What comes after more curiouser? LOL ;)


"Dead-Fire Missiles were prototype weapons developed by House Kurita to offset the increasing cost of military hardware. To reduce cost, the guidance systems of standard long range and short range missiles were removed and replaced with larger warheads."

"Anti-Radiation Missiles are special-purpose missiles which can be fired from SRMs, MMLs and LRMs. Similar to Listen-Kill Missiles, ARAD Missiles are able to home in on active electronic systems, however unlike L-K missiles they do not sacrifice their range or damage potential, and are not easily confused by ECM."

"Heat Seeking warheads are available for LRM, SRM, and MML launchers; They are incompatible with Artemis, Narc, and Streak guidance systems."

"Listen-Kill (aka L-K or LK) missile technology is an upgrade to missiles (both LRM and SRM) to improve their accuracy. This is achieved through a small computer and homing device in the missile's head that allows it to home in on the electronic noise of a BattleMech or tank."

All of the above seem to indicate that SRMs, like LRMs, have a guidance system in their standard rounds, and (like LRMs) have alternative munitions that either exchange the standard guidance system for something more specialized, or remove it entirely (in the unique case of dead-fire missiles).

Also:
"Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway."

The Streak system is not so much a guidance system as an ammo conservation system, forcing the launcher not to fire unless and until a missile lock is acquired and the missiles are certain (or, at least, nearly-certain) to hit.

Moreover, the Streak system isn't limited to SRMs - Streak LRM-5, LRM-10, LRM-15, and LRM-20 were developed by Clan Coyote in 3057.

#45 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:19 PM

We can only speculate based on the TT rules.

If the missiles would not have hit the 'Mech anyway (unsuccessful to-hit roll), they would not have triggered the AMS to activate.

Standard SRMs and LRMs have some guidance built-in. Streak SRMs simply have really good help from the launcher in guiding them to their target so all of them are guaranteed to hit. Artemis systems are similar, but not as effective as Streak tech.

I would say that any missile that is not classified specifically as "dumb-fire" would be engaged by the AMS (assuming a successful to-hit roll). Other weapons systems not classified as missiles (Long Toms, etc) would not be engaged by the AMS.

Edit: Scooped by Scrum, kind of...

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 03 February 2012 - 12:21 PM.


#46 Canned_Dman

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:34 PM

I think ams rules are poorly done in TT.
They should be 1 "round" of ammo per activation, roll number of missles to hit as per normal then 2d6 to see how many are shot down.
lams should be a set heat scale.

#47 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostDev909, on 03 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think ams rules are poorly done in TT.
They should be 1 "round" of ammo per activation, roll number of missles to hit as per normal then 2d6 to see how many are shot down.
lams should be a set heat scale.

It is actually only one AMS shot per activation, according to Total Warfare rules. I was unaware of this, as I don't have the Total Warfare book. I don't remember off-hand how the number of missiles shot down was calculated.

And LAMS do have a set heat scale -- 5 heat per activation for Clan, 7 heat per activation for IS.

#48 C0VVB3LL

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 01:21 PM

Just wanted to point out that if AMS/LAMS are radar based and you don't want them active... just turn off your radar!

#49 Canned_Dman

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:09 PM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 03 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

It is actually only one AMS shot per activation, according to Total Warfare rules. I was unaware of this, as I don't have the Total Warfare book. I don't remember off-hand how the number of missiles shot down was calculated.

And LAMS do have a set heat scale -- 5 heat per activation for Clan, 7 heat per activation for IS.


1990 compendium rules:
IS AMS 1d6 shot down 1d6 x 2 ammo used
Clan AMS 2d6 shot down 1d6 x 2 ammo used
subtract missiles before determining number that hit, reduce table accordingly
once per turn, only for missiles shot at you, no thunder, swarm etc.

Max Tech revised
Laser AMS 2d6 shot down, same number used for heat generation.

If they changed the numbers since then, good!

#50 Strum Wealh

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostDev909, on 03 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think ams rules are poorly done in TT.
They should be 1 "round" of ammo per activation, roll number of missles to hit as per normal then 2d6 to see how many are shot down.
lams should be a set heat scale.



View PostDurant Carlyle, on 03 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

It is actually only one AMS shot per activation, according to Total Warfare rules. I was unaware of this, as I don't have the Total Warfare book. I don't remember off-hand how the number of missiles shot down was calculated.

And LAMS do have a set heat scale -- 5 heat per activation for Clan, 7 heat per activation for IS.


View PostDev909, on 03 February 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

1990 compendium rules:
IS AMS 1d6 shot down 1d6 x 2 ammo used
Clan AMS 2d6 shot down 1d6 x 2 ammo used
subtract missiles before determining number that hit, reduce table accordingly
once per turn, only for missiles shot at you, no thunder, swarm etc.

Max Tech revised
Laser AMS 2d6 shot down, same number used for heat generation.

If they changed the numbers since then, good!


What it says in Total Warfare:

Quote


Anytime a missile weapon makes a successful to-hit attack
against a unit carrying an AMS, and the missile weapon strikes
in the attack direction covered by the firing arc where the
AMS is mounted, the AMS will automatically engage with the
following results:
• The attacking player applies a –4 to the die roll result
when rolling on the Cluster Hits Table (an AMS never
reduces a roll on the table below 2)
• If the missile weapon is a Streak launcher, treat the launcher as
though the controlling player rolled an 11 on the appropriate
column of the Cluster Hits Table, then apply the –4 modifier
to determine how many missiles struck the target.
• If the missile weapon normally fires only a single missile
in a shot (such as a Narc Missile Beacon), roll 1D6: on a
result of 1-3 the missile is destroyed, on a result of 4-6 the
missile strikes the target.

The player cannot choose for the AMS to not engage, as it is
always active until it runs out of ammo or is destroyed; 1 shot of
ammunition is marked off each time the AMS engages a missile
weapon.

If, in a single Weapon Attack Phase, more than one missile
weapon successfully strikes the target in the attack direction
covered by the firing arc where an AMS is mounted, the defending
player can choose which missile weapon to inflict the modifier
against.

Only 1 AMS can engage 1 missile weapon in a turn, regardless
of how many AMS cover the attack direction. If a unit mounts
more than 1 AMS that covers the same attack direction, the
defender chooses the order in which they activate and against
which missile weapons they inflict their modifiers.

Cluster Hit Table Modifiers: The AMS Cluster Table modifier
is cumulative with other Cluster table modifiers, for instance the
bonus generated by NARC or Artemis IV-equipped missiles. In
that instance, the net effect on the Cluster Table would be –2.
Critical Hits: Anti-missile system ammo explodes for Damage
Value 2 per shot of ammo.

Aerospace Units: AMS against missile attacks from aerospace
units operates as described above, with the following exceptions:
for each AMS in the appropriate attack direction from an attacking
aerospace unit, roll 1D6 and subtract that number from the
missile’s standard-scale Attack Value before generating Damage
Value groupings (see Determining Hit Location, p. 238, in Aerospace
Units); AMS has no effect against Capital Missiles.


The paragraphs with "Only 1 AMS can engage 1 missile weapon in a turn..." and "...more than one missile weapon successfully strikes..." makes it sound like a single AMS can only engage one missile set per turn (10-second period) - if one simultaneously launches salvos from one LRM-5, one LRM-10, one LRM-15, and one LRM-20 at a 'Mech with a single AMS, that AMS can engage the missiles from any one of the launchers, but not from all of them, yes? :o

How would/should MWO implement it - should AMS engage based on some priority system (proximity/"nearest missiles first" or "largest clusters first")?
How will ammo be handled - will it be like the ACs where "1 shot" represents a magazine/clip containing multiple bullets/flechettes (where the in-cockpit ammo counter shows the number of magazines)? Or will AMS have a large number of bullets/flechettes shown in the in-cockpit ammo counter?

Should AMS be "always on" and active until destroyed or out-of-ammo (even if the 'Mech is shut down), or should players be able to turn it on and off via an in-cockpit toggle?

#51 Canned_Dman

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 11:10 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 03 February 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:







What it says in Total Warfare:


The paragraphs with "Only 1 AMS can engage 1 missile weapon in a turn..." and "...more than one missile weapon successfully strikes..." makes it sound like a single AMS can only engage one missile set per turn (10-second period) - if one simultaneously launches salvos from one LRM-5, one LRM-10, one LRM-15, and one LRM-20 at a 'Mech with a single AMS, that AMS can engage the missiles from any one of the launchers, but not from all of them, yes? :o

How would/should MWO implement it - should AMS engage based on some priority system (proximity/"nearest missiles first" or "largest clusters first")?
How will ammo be handled - will it be like the ACs where "1 shot" represents a magazine/clip containing multiple bullets/flechettes (where the in-cockpit ammo counter shows the number of magazines)? Or will AMS have a large number of bullets/flechettes shown in the in-cockpit ammo counter?

Should AMS be "always on" and active until destroyed or out-of-ammo (even if the 'Mech is shut down), or should players be able to turn it on and off via an in-cockpit toggle?


I think its 1 ammo allocation per use (12 per ton) with a cycle rate of say, 10 seconds between uses.
When it is "on", it engages the first incoming missile whenever is has cycled.
It could easily have an on off switch like running lights or radar...

#52 Terminatio

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:07 AM

View Post[EDMW]CSN, on 03 February 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

AMS should protect allies but then again the AMS system should not be so uber that it makes Catapults and Longbows useless, because it is a definite possibility that people will use over lapping AMS to cover themselves and the team.


That is where offensive jamming comes in. Blank their radar and let your missiles rain death.





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