36 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

We all (mostly) know that Gauss Rifles will cause an explosion when destroyed by a critical hit because the charged capacitor banks will detonate as if it were an ammo explosion. Ammo storage bays explode, as do missile stocks.

Well, Lasers that fire "on-demand" at the pull of a trigger can only do so if their reflection chambers or the capacitors that feed the amplification and guide chamber are fully charged at all times... which means a critical hit on your laser would release that energy [equal to a single shot from your own Laser] into your Mech's internal structures...


Just sayin'


Hey, anybody know how to change a topic title?
Thanks!

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 February 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

Prosperity Park, on 03 February 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Sorry, I made a mistake in the Topic Title. It's meant to read:

"Technically, Lasers should explode when they go critical."

We all (mostly) know that Gauss Rifles will cause an explosion when destroyed by a critical hit because the charged capacitor banks will detonate as if it were an ammo explosion. Ammo storage bays explode, as do missile stocks.

Well, Lasers that fire "on-demand" at the pull of a trigger can only do so if their reflection chambers are fully charged at all times... which means a critical hit on your laser would release that energy [equal to a single shot from your own Laser] into your Mech's internal structures...

Just sayin'

Hey, anybody know how to change a topic title?

Could we then extrapolate that if the reflection chamber was at only 50% of charge it would do only 50% damage etc etc?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

MaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Could we then extrapolate that if the reflection chamber was at only 50% of charge it would do only 50% damage etc etc?

Yuppers. If there's a 6 second recharge-time on your ER Large Laser, and someone sneeks in a critical hit through your armor 3 seconds after you fired, then your internal structure should receive 50% the damage of a ER Large Laser.

Edit: Actually, your point is very true about Gauss Rifles as well - they can only go as critical as they are charged, so a Gauss Rifle that's only 50% done recharging between shots only has 50% of its energy in the capacitor banks, so it can only detonate with 50% force.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 February 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Prosperity Park, on 03 February 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yuppers. If there's a 6 second recharge-time on your ER Large Laser, and someone sneeks in a critical hit through your armor 3 seconds after you fired, then your internal structure should receive 50% the damage of a ER Large Laser.

I like it. Don't expect to see it right off, but it would add to the whole damage model "cool" factor at some point.

[Blackfire1]

Wouldn't that require turning off weapon banks before, during, and after battle?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Blackfire1, on 03 February 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Wouldn't that require turning off weapon banks before, during, and after battle?

Well, if the Devs wanted to make this really Sim-like, they could enable you to shut-down weapons systems like Lasers and Gauss Rifles to prevent them from exploding if they go critical... but I doubt anyone would willingly shut-down their weapons in battle.

[MaddMaxx]

Blackfire1, on 03 February 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Wouldn't that require turning off weapon banks before, during, and after battle?

Explain?

One would assume they would be turned on before. Left on during and given a decent grounding connection, would drain automatically when the Mech was fully powered down after.

[That Guy]

no, they would not "explode". there should be nothing in a laser (or gauss rifle) to "explode". catch fire maybe, or a large jolt of electricity (which a mech should be protected against anyway). any physists or engineers around to use them big words to clear this up?

some should do an experiment were one takes a rifle and shoot electronic devices that have large, or high charge capacitors and record what happens. its for science

[MaddMaxx]

That Guy, on 03 February 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

no, they would not "explode". there should be nothing in a laser (or gauss rifle) to "explode". catch fire maybe, or a large jolt of electricity (which a mech should be protected against anyway). any physists or engineers around to use them big words to clear this up?

some should do an experiment were one takes a rifle and shoot electronic devices that have large, or high charge capacitors and record what happens. its for science

Quote

However, if the weapon itself is struck by enemy fire, the capacitors that power the electromagnets will release their stored energy, with an effect similar to an ammo explosion. (In game terms, a critical hit on a Gauss Rifle is equivalent to a 20-point ammo explosion.) Some 'Mechs employ CASE in the section containing the Gauss Rifle to protect internal components in the event the weapon explodes.?

[Felicitatem Parco]

That Guy, on 03 February 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

there should be nothing in a laser (or gauss rifle) to "explode"

Capacitors explode. Here's some example videos of capacitors exploding from an overvoltage event, however a charged capacitor that becomes structurally damaged will suffer the same fate because it will be "overcharged" relative to its structural integrity.


Two Videos.




Article on world-wide distribution of faulty, exploding capacitors.
http://en.wikipedia....apacitor_plague


Also, the waveguide in a laser contains all the photons that are released in the form of a focused [weaponized] beam upon firing, and the waveguide is fed by capacitors (see above)... so...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 February 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

what he said.

[WingMcCallister]

Capacitor explosions aren't really drastic enough to cause structural damage. They could just fail outright until re-spawn though, but these in-game effects have been historically tied to heat management.

[Felicitatem Parco]

WingMcCallister, on 04 February 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Capacitor explosions aren't really drastic enough to cause structural damage. They could just fail outright until re-spawn though, but these in-game effects have been historically tied to heat management.

But what if the capacitor is charged with the same quantity of energy used to fire a Mech-Sized Gauss Rifle? Mechs walk around with their capacitors charged-up all the time. The energy stored by a charged capacitor bank is similar to the amount of energy stored in a satchel of gunpowder used to fire a tank cannon. What happens when the breach of a cannon blows out? The same thing as if your capacitors blow out:

Great sadness.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 February 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Liam]

Sry but to overload a small mainstream capacitor doesn't mean big capacitors will do the same.
On the other hand, we can assume a Gauss capacitor would need at least be able to store > 10 MJ ...
if this energy will be released (by a hit), this can be considered as small "explosion", vaporization of cap. material etc. About damage it depends on where the capacitor is mounted,

As for proposed charge on/off mechanic ... this sounds cool, but if you allow this, all mechs will be able to fire so many lasers or ppc as they can hold in their critical slots, which is not okay for the game.
Also very interesting, Gauss stated to be as cool weapon in BT. But from physical point of view reactor will produce heat by producing energy for capacitor load ... But this is another story and caused by heat coupling between weapons and reactor which makes less sense, but well this is BT

Edited by Liam, 04 February 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[WingMcCallister]

Prosperity Park, on 04 February 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

But what if the capacitor is charged with the same quantity of energy used to fire a Mech-Sized Gauss Rifle? Mechs walk around with their capacitors charged-up all the time. The energy stored by a charged capacitor bank is similar to the amount of energy stored in a satchel of gunpowder used to fire a tank cannon. What happens when the breach of a cannon blows out? The same thing as if your capacitors blow out:

Great sadness.

Gunpowder is a lot more destructive in my experience. I'd be far more afraid of terrible wiring causing an internal arcflash in high current lines than damage from a cap. Most caps are made of foil thin materials. Even more sturdy industrial types I just don't see as causing crazy damage. Still, my time building high voltage power supplies taught me this: wiring stuff properly is much more important than what the caps do. When they blow, there is a material clean up and a terrible smell, but the boards usually remain intact. Arcs are worse. Great sadpanda .

[Liam]

I don't know how fast SMES can be discharged, but if similar concept will be used, after a hit of such high current density SMES will release a nice arc and its destructive power.

Arcs with some kA are really dangerous.

Edited by Liam, 05 February 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[Oppi]

Laser = Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation
It basically concentrates light (which is emitted when stimulated electrons fall back into a non-stimulated state) into a single direction. It's similar (in a very different scale) to burning ants with a magnifying glass. So in the same way in which sunlight is not dangerous for the ants until you concentrate it with the magnifying glass, the energy "stored" in said stimulated electrons is not dangerous until it is released in a concentrated way. Blowing the charged laser up would not - at least not in my understanding - cause that effect, because the parts responsible for the concentration would blow up as well, and light would just be emitted in every possible direction. It's possible it'd do some damage, but not the same amount a normal hit would do.

[Liam]

Oppi, on 05 February 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Laser = Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation
It basically concentrates light (which is emitted when stimulated electrons fall back into a non-stimulated state) into a single direction. It's similar (in a very different scale) to burning ants with a magnifying glass. So in the same way in which sunlight is not dangerous for the ants until you concentrate it with the magnifying glass, the energy "stored" in said stimulated electrons is not dangerous until it is released in a concentrated way. Blowing the charged laser up would not - at least not in my understanding - cause that effect, because the parts responsible for the concentration would blow up as well, and light would just be emitted in every possible direction. It's possible it'd do some damage, but not the same amount a normal hit would do.

This is explanation how Laser works itself, but what about energy supply?
Normally it doesn't matter what kind of energy weapon it is, there should be an optimum between reactor power output / energy storage (capacitor) in case of specific power and energy density.
I have no idea how the power supply of high power lasers is realized, but at least it will probably similar to other EM-Weapons:


reactor > energy storage > weapon

- Otherwise reactor would be very powerful and need to produce > 30 MJ in couple of some milliseconds (let say 10 ms) > would lead to needed 3 GW.

- With capacitor you can charge during 4 seconds your 30 MJ while your weapons cool down > lead to only 7,5 MW and smaller reactor.

So there is an optimum between storage system and reactor depending on available tech.
This implies all energy weapons (not sure about small stuff like small lasers) would capacitors.

Edited by Liam, 05 February 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Exactly. All energy Weapons would be capacitor based because the reactor's sustainable output is less than the peakoutput of the weapon itself. And when a capacitor "blows out" it's not just the arcing and sparking you get when too much voltage is passed through a wire and it pops; when a "capacitor blows" it means the electrolyte solution boils so much it explodes like a pressure vessle and sprays caustic material everywhere. Ever watch those Mythbusters episodes where they overpressurize hot water heaters?

And, another point is:

Oppi, on 05 February 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Laser = Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation
So in the same way in which sunlight is not dangerous for the ants until you concentrate it with the magnifying glass, the energy "stored" in said stimulated electrons is not dangerous until it is released in a concentrated way.

Releasing the energy of a Large Laser [capable of destroying tank armor] in the form of a failed Laser waveguide then you'd basically be shooting your laser with itself, possibly causing the capcitor to fail mid-discharge, thereby making a small explosion inside your Mech's arm/torso compartment. But it wouldn't explode everytime it's destroyed, just when the capacitors are extremetly damaged while charged.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 February 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Oppi]

Quote

This is explanation how Laser works itself, but what about energy supply?

True, I didn't cover that. But that issue isn't specific to lasers, but occurs everywhere, energy would be "stored" inside the Mech.

Besides I don't really know if a laser weapon would have capacitors anyway. The energy for a single shot should be stored in the weapons charged material itself. The "peak output" would occur during charging, not in the moment you pulled the trigger. Said electrons are charged, like when you inflate a balloon, and pulling the trigger just stimulates them to emit that energy, like when you sting the balloon with a needle. The former needs far more energy than the latter, but it can be accomplished over time (-> large laser charges longer than small laser) and doesn't need a single large outburst of energy.
Blowing the whole thing up would also cause energy in form of light to be emitted, but in a random direction and a random time for every electron, like in a light bulb.

But I have to admit my knowledge in that direction is rather superficial. (I study chemistry, we sometimes use those things but we don't build them )

A Gauss rifle on the other hand would definitely have capacitors, and those could blow up, like it's already described in the lore.

Edited by Oppi, 05 February 2012 - 08:55 AM.