53 replies to this topic

[fil5000]

You know, constructive criticism can be handy. I mean, I disagree with the guy who said they all look like they came off the same production line but I can see why he'd say that, but what's the point of just posting the word "rubbish"?

Edited by fil5000, 20 August 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Buda]

Koorisch, on 20 August 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

But you like the old rubbish designs from the old art?

I'd take these over any of the Durpmechs.

Actualy, yes... I prefer the good old Unseens and older TRO's

It's like cars... supose all cars were manufactured by BMW. They'll all look familiar between them. But IRL there are several car manufacturers, each which they own signature details and designs. In fact, it's a problem that I'm seeing on MWO (beside the Gundam-ish centurian...). They all shares so many design lines that they seems they were manufactured by the same 'Mech factory, as every design showed in here.

They are still cool, but I think they do not fit in BT

[Nekki Basara]

Buda, on 20 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

They are still cool, but I think they do not fit in BT

You are going to be so dissapointed in the not too distant future when his stuff starts appearing on the pages of Catalyst publications.

That's still on right TG? You didn't slooooowdraw your way out of it?

[Feindfeuer]

Reposting, cause it got deleted in the tread cleanup.

TG Xarbala, would be nice if you'd post the rest of your BT artwork you got on your deviantart site, cause i don't think most people here will browse your profile to find the link.

[SgtMaster]

well, i am gonna browse the profile link,
just because i think there are many artists with lots of talent,
i like them all, and i would hope to see all of them in game eventually down the line.

[EndoDrake 263]

I remember seeing these before - very cool designs, and I for much approve of the more 'streamlined' appearances compared to some of the 'official' art (Seriously, did they pay these artists with peanuts or what?)

Not sure whether I should be amused or disappointed at how little time it took before we got some anti-Goon posturing here, but eh. Far from surprised.

[Bishop Steiner]

GOON SUPPORT......

*shudders*

[TG Xarbala]

Thanks guys!

I'll admit that a lot of my designs do have common elements tying them together, though when I get serious with my detailing work I can make them pretty distinctive. Sure I like Macross Unseens(1) but the Dougram Unseens(2) are some of my favorites and the Dougram Unseens all have common design influences between them despite being manufactured by different companies in-game. And the old TRO artwork is... well, I understand nostalgia but really we can let the old art speak for itself. Really. (Each word is a different `Mech.)

I'll clarify why Buda feels that older `Mech designs are dramatically different from each other. This is because, over the years, a number of different artists have contributed to the Battletech universe. When you take all the `Mechs designed by a single artist, you'll find they all look kind of alike. TRO:3025 was mostly the work of Duane Loose and the original art he did makes all of his `Mechs look very similar to each other, kind of like how you can see strong commonalities in the `Mechs I draw. Many of Mr. Loose's non-Unseen originals actually look a lot alike, as you can see from some of the choice links I provided in that mass of orange above. And they're ostensibly from different manufacturers, too!

And MWO had a distinctive art style with `Mechs that all look like they share the same industrial standards because, again, there's a single artist providing the core concepts. Let's face it, we all can identify FD's art from a mile away, his stuff is really, really distinctive! It's also gorgeous.

You can see a lot of similarly softened curves in Anthony "ShimmeringSword" Scroggin's `Mechs, and his stuff manages to look graceful because of the softening detail work despite his `Mechs leaning towards the bulky end in mass--you show me thirty `Mechs with his stuff mixed in and I'll zoom right on his works every time. Plog's `Mechs are pretty iconic of the remade Clan era and Civil War era TROs (yes, even quite a lot of bubbleheads). David "Mecha Master" White shows a combined love of both Japanese anime and classic BT `Mechs in his designs, and he's got a great grasp of creating iconic and classic-feeling designs thanks to his mastery of fundamental shapes and form (also, check out his work on Transformers, it's pretty sweet!). Eric "Eriance" Ou, who also did a huge chunk of work on the TRO:3063 project I contributed to, is a huge Gundam fan and an engineering grad and both elements show in his work but his Champion and his Jagermech are some of the best-looking FC Civil War takes on those `Mechs I've seen. And Alex "FlyingDebris" Iglesias is undeniably the king of industrial detail, combining Armored Core-level technophilia with the solidness of the undeniable Battletech aesthetic.

But one thing each artist has in common: All their `Mechs look like they came from the same source. And they do; they were all drawn by the same person!

Nekki Basara, on 20 August 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

You are going to be so dissapointed in the not too distant future when his stuff starts appearing on the pages of Catalyst publications.

That's still on right TG? You didn't slooooowdraw your way out of it?

I got pushed aside for GenCon, and then I wanted to bolster my kind-of-lacking dA page but got derailed by cheesecake pinup sketches that I would have to put behind a mature content filter if I ever posted them on my dA. WELP. I should finish that Thunderbolt and the rest of my Dougram Re-Reseens.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

GOON SUPPORT......

*shudders*

Feel free to drop by PoptartNinja's LP thread, Bishop. Or just lurk there, s'all good. It's great stuff, written by a BT veteran who was recently hired as a writer for Battlecorps. Yes, this does mean a Goon is writing canon fluff for Battletech now.

The LP thread predates MWO's announcement by almost a year, though, and is closer to the "natural habitat" of us BTgoons than the MWO thread, which specifically refers to MWO and not Battletech as a whole.

PTN also did some very memorable critical readings of such "classic" novels as Far Country and Main Event, as well as some actual classics like the Warrior Trilogy. If you've never wanted to punch Jeremiah Rose in the face before, you'll certainly want to after PTN's done with him. Honestly, he knows what he's talking about and Battlecorps did a good job scouting him out.


(1)Macross Unseens: Warhammer's a good-looking `Mech, but the Marauder looks a bit lanky for my tastes. My personal favorite MAD is ACS/ShimmeringSword's, though Bishop Steiner and I agree to disagree on that particular issue. The Archer has a distinctive nose but not much else going for it, and again I prefer ACS' take than the Unseen. The Rifleman does look good and has quirky detailing you don't see in a lot of `Mechs these days.

(2)Dougram Unseens: The Shadow Hawk (Dougram's Jakt Type itself) is visually one of my favorite medium `Mechs despite being a jack-of-all-trades-but-not-even-very-good-at-jacktrading thanks to the AC/5 wasting its tonnage. The Battlemaster is a distinctive and classic design, iconic both to the canon Rolling Thunder as well as to the reborn Classic Battletech game line, and its big ol' bubble head is a simple and dare I say it graceful expedient to designing a cockpit for an Assault `Mech. It's a shame so many Project Phoenix reseens had to take bubblecockpits way too far over the line. The original Griffin vaguely resembles a Zaku from Gundam because the Dougram mecha it's licensed from basically was Dougram's equivalent of a Zaku. Note that Dougram was made by Sunrise, the same studio that makes Gundam. So, er, anybody who's offended by any potential Kevin-Baconesque links between Battletech and Gundam should probably lighten up a tad, it's part of our Unseen history! I still love it despite it being an obvious mook mecha, but part of my fondness is because on the tabletop it's a right solid sniper `Mech with the best mobility out of all the Dougram 55-tonners. The Wolverine, despite being only slightly less-crappy than the Shadow Hawk on the tabletop, looks like a Hind helicopter grew big ol' limbs. It looks bulky for its weight class but I still love the look of it, though, and miss the sorts of design whimsy you got from Unseens. The Thunderbolt is big and ugly in the best way. The gangly Reseen Thunderbolt just doesn't do the original bad boy justice. The fact that I'm willing to spend a whole paragraph just talking about the Dougram Unseens says how much I love them. But really, only the Hellbringer sketch out of the ones I posted has the sort of design flair you see in old Sunrise anime.

EDIT 'cause I missed it:

Feindfeuer, on 20 August 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Reposting, cause it got deleted in the tread cleanup.

TG Xarbala, would be nice if you'd post the rest of your BT artwork you got on your deviantart site, cause i don't think most people here will browse your profile to find the link.

Really? Well, thing is most of that art was already posted in other threads on this very Fan Art forum!

But I suppose I can make some room in the OP for them, hah.

Edited by TG Xarbala, 20 August 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Nekki Basara]

TG Xarbala, on 20 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I got pushed aside for GenCon, and then I wanted to bolster my kind-of-lacking dA page but got derailed by cheesecake pinup sketches that I would have to put behind a mature content filter if I ever posted them on my dA. WELP. I should finish that Thunderbolt and the rest of my Dougram Re-Reseens.

Shocking behaviour. DRAW MORE MECHS DAMMIT! :argh:

[Bishop Steiner]

TG Xarbala, on 20 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Thanks guys!

I'll admit that a lot of my designs do have common elements tying them together, though when I get serious with my detailing work I can make them pretty distinctive. Sure I like Macross Unseens(1) but the Dougram Unseens(2) are some of my favorites and the Dougram Unseens all have common design influences between them despite being manufactured by different companies in-game. And the old TRO artwork is... well, I understand nostalgia but really we can let the old art speak for itself. Really. (Each word is a different `Mech.)

I'll clarify why Buda feels that older `Mech designs are dramatically different from each other. This is because, over the years, a number of different artists have contributed to the Battletech universe. When you take all the `Mechs designed by a single artist, you'll find they all look kind of alike. TRO:3025 was mostly the work of Duane Loose and the original art he did makes all of his `Mechs look very similar to each other, kind of like how you can see strong commonalities in the `Mechs I draw. Many of Mr. Loose's non-Unseen originals actually look a lot alike, as you can see from some of the choice links I provided in that mass of orange above. And they're ostensibly from different manufacturers, too!

And MWO had a distinctive art style with `Mechs that all look like they share the same industrial standards because, again, there's a single artist providing the core concepts. Let's face it, we all can identify FD's art from a mile away, his stuff is really, really distinctive! It's also gorgeous.

You can see a lot of similarly softened curves in Anthony "ShimmeringSword" Scroggin's `Mechs, and his stuff manages to look graceful because of the softening detail work despite his `Mechs leaning towards the bulky end in mass--you show me thirty `Mechs with his stuff mixed in and I'll zoom right on his works every time. Plog's `Mechs are pretty iconic of the remade Clan era and Civil War era TROs (yes, even quite a lot of bubbleheads). David "Mecha Master" White shows a combined love of both Japanese anime and classic BT `Mechs in his designs, and he's got a great grasp of creating iconic and classic-feeling designs thanks to his mastery of fundamental shapes and form (also, check out his work on Transformers, it's pretty sweet!). Eric "Eriance" Ou, who also did a huge chunk of work on the TRO:3063 project I contributed to, is a huge Gundam fan and an engineering grad and both elements show in his work but his Champion and his Jagermech are some of the best-looking FC Civil War takes on those `Mechs I've seen. And Alex "FlyingDebris" Iglesias is undeniably the king of industrial detail, combining Armored Core-level technophilia with the solidness of the undeniable Battletech aesthetic.

But one thing each artist has in common: All their `Mechs look like they came from the same source. And they do; they were all drawn by the same person!



I got pushed aside for GenCon, and then I wanted to bolster my kind-of-lacking dA page but got derailed by cheesecake pinup sketches that I would have to put behind a mature content filter if I ever posted them on my dA. WELP. I should finish that Thunderbolt and the rest of my Dougram Re-Reseens.






Feel free to drop by PoptartNinja's LP thread, Bishop. Or just lurk there, s'all good. It's great stuff, written by a BT veteran who was recently hired as a writer for Battlecorps. Yes, this does mean a Goon is writing canon fluff for Battletech now.

The LP thread predates MWO's announcement by almost a year, though, and is closer to the "natural habitat" of us BTgoons than the MWO thread, which specifically refers to MWO and not Battletech as a whole.

PTN also did some very memorable critical readings of such "classic" novels as Far Country and Main Event, as well as some actual classics like the Warrior Trilogy. If you've never wanted to punch Jeremiah Rose in the face before, you'll certainly want to after PTN's done with him. Honestly, he knows what he's talking about and Battlecorps did a good job scouting him out.


(1)Macross Unseens: Warhammer's a good-looking `Mech, but the Marauder looks a bit lanky for my tastes. My personal favorite MAD is ACS/ShimmeringSword's, though Bishop Steiner and I agree to disagree on that particular issue. The Archer has a distinctive nose but not much else going for it, and again I prefer ACS' take than the Unseen. The Rifleman does look good and has quirky detailing you don't see in a lot of `Mechs these days.

(2)Dougram Unseens: The Shadow Hawk (Dougram's Jakt Type itself) is visually one of my favorite medium `Mechs despite being a jack-of-all-trades-but-not-even-very-good-at-jacktrading thanks to the AC/5 wasting its tonnage. The Battlemaster is a distinctive and classic design, iconic both to the canon Rolling Thunder as well as to the reborn Classic Battletech game line, and its big ol' bubble head is a simple and dare I say it graceful expedient to designing a cockpit for an Assault `Mech. It's a shame so many Project Phoenix reseens had to take bubblecockpits way too far over the line. The original Griffin vaguely resembles a Zaku from Gundam because the Dougram mecha it's licensed from basically was Dougram's equivalent of a Zaku. Note that Dougram was made by Sunrise, the same studio that makes Gundam. So, er, anybody who's offended by any potential Kevin-Baconesque links between Battletech and Gundam should probably lighten up a tad, it's part of our Unseen history! I still love it despite it being an obvious mook mecha, but part of my fondness is because on the tabletop it's a right solid sniper `Mech with the best mobility out of all the Dougram 55-tonners. The Wolverine, despite being only slightly less-crappy than the Shadow Hawk on the tabletop, looks like a Hind helicopter grew big ol' limbs. It looks bulky for its weight class but I still love the look of it, though, and miss the sorts of design whimsy you got from Unseens. The Thunderbolt is big and ugly in the best way. The gangly Reseen Thunderbolt just doesn't do the original bad boy justice. The fact that I'm willing to spend a whole paragraph just talking about the Dougram Unseens says how much I love them. But really, only the Hellbringer sketch out of the ones I posted has the sort of design flair you see in old Sunrise anime.

EDIT 'cause I missed it:



Really? Well, thing is most of that art was already posted in other threads on this very Fan Art forum!

But I suppose I can make some room in the OP for them, hah.

Hey, it's all good to disagree on some things, I certainly don't think less of people for differing tastes, just the forum morons who constantly spam, troll or otherwise try to force their opinion on others.

Let's face it, I am the unpublished amateur here, and since I have no computer art skills, will always be on the outside looking in. The days of the pencil and pen "artist" are numbered, at least as far is in publishing and role playing industries. All the artists you listed, and yourself are miles ahead of my efforts, and I have no problem admitting that. I just sometime disagree on whether a particular design is good, rather than the actual execution. SS is amazing, I just don't feel it for that one design.

*Shrugs* not gonna rehash, it's just too massive and bulky. I dunno if you have seen my finished version, it actually took a lot of the input from you, and others, and I would say ended up somewhere between my lanky original (which is closer to canon, but that is not always a good thing, lol) and Shimmering Swords.

Spoiler

Funnily enough, while the reviews have been mostly good, one relatively common comment is that it looks too massive, like a Marauder II now, lol. Can't win for losing. Unfortunately, without the know how or patience to layer, matte, paint and whatever else, it will always look second rate.

And if I had a knock on White, it is just that with the Btech stuff, sometimes I wish he would take more liberties, since some of the originals were just so bad that even his skills can't always save them. But that is just his style and preference, so I respect it.

I am with you however on the Dougram Unseen designs, and I think when well illustrated, they often looked BETTER than the original anime versions. And your point on the distinctive styles is well taken, and I wonder if my own lack of a specific "style tree" might be one of my own problems.

Regardless, look forward to seeing your iterations of the Dougram Unseens. (Especially the Thunderbolt, which I have had the devil's own time trying to find a happy medium on. I think I re-imagined the Goliath rather well, (had to lean more toward the Phoenix version, as a tank with legs just looks too much like well... a tank with legs, lol.)

CHEERS!

[Nekki Basara]

I think it's the cockpit, it looks rather like the Marauder IIc's. I should probably go look at your thread really.

[tyrone dunkirk]

Your designs are nothing short of inspiring.
All very solid.

Edit: I really dig the artistic conversations going on in here I loved reading TD's examination of all the major BT artists, and I can identify with how Bishop feels about pencil-and-paper artists. As sketch 'artist' ( being a relative term compared to Bishop and all the other BT artists mentioned here ) I can't do much more than mime the style's of such artists and attempt to learn from it and improve my own style. '...from the outside, looking in. ' is the most apt description I can give of it, but it's still certainly enjoyable.

I may never be as great as those artists, or achieve the acclaim they have, but it won't be for lack of trying!

Edited by tyrone dunkirk, 20 August 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Steel Raven]

Yet another artist that should have been put in charge of the re-seen instead of Chris Lewis (my apologies to Mr. Lewis)

Some very slick designs, really dig the the Thug.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gotta say, my 2 faves out of that post are the 1) KingFisher B and 2) the Painting of the Wraith.

About the only "knock" iI would make at all is that many of them have those tiny chead/cockpits I tend to not like. Of course, if they were built like the celestials, the cockpit is in the torso, and the point is moot.

[Deathz Jester]

Oh god...take me now

[Chronojam]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Gotta say, my 2 faves out of that post are the 1) KingFisher B and 2) the Painting of the Wraith.

About the only "knock" iI would make at all is that many of them have those tiny chead/cockpits I tend to not like. Of course, if they were built like the celestials, the cockpit is in the torso, and the point is moot.

Those "tiny heads" are really laser turrets. Same on the quad that looks like a knight with a lance, the "head" is not the cockpit on that design.

[TG Xarbala]

Actually I do have a tendency to make heads smaller than they need to be. It's a habit that's mostly due to my wonky sense of scale and my subconscious telling me that `Mechs are bigger than they actually are. I'm still embarrassed by the Hellbringer's head, but I haven't edited it mostly out of posterity and as a grim reminder to keep things proportionate to their pilots.

I'm really glad people caught on to the repeated Warhammer homages I stuck into the Ryuken section of the big `Mech sheet. Though with the Wildebeest I was worried it'd be a little too blatant. Really, a lot of the DS heavies were designed with some element of Warhammer design in each of them, though some more than others. Redesigning the classic Unseens is an exercise I think every aspiring BT artist ought to give a try, myself included. Speaking of which!

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Spoiler

Funnily enough, while the reviews have been mostly good, one relatively common comment is that it looks too massive, like a Marauder II now, lol. Can't win for losing. Unfortunately, without the know how or patience to layer, matte, paint and whatever else, it will always look second rate.

As far as your Marauder, Bishop, I think I see why it gives the impression of bulkiness. A lot of your work does feel very heavy, though I mostly keep my opinions to myself since lacking a proper art education I don't have the same vocabulary and analytical eye more well-trained artists do. But from lurking your threads, I've noticed you do tend to break up the silhouettes and shapes of your `Mechs with a lot of details, protrusions, and other outcroppings that break up the flow of lines. You've got a love of detail, but sometimes the details overshadow the underlying structure and forms of the `Mechs proper. When detail starts to overshadow the fundamental shapes that define a form, I think that's when a design starts to look busy--in fact, that was a criticism rightly levelled onto my TRO:3063 `Mechs, the Thug especially. (You were pretty sharp to catch that! It was a problem that I'd noticed a long time ago and kept quiet about lest I draw peoples attention to it! I actually gave a shot at fixing the Thug's torso issues with the Yabai Yatsu.) The Experimentals and Prototypes `Mechsheet was actually done much later than the TRO:3063 pieces, Rolling Thunder, and the Clan Omnis. With the Capellan and Ryuken sketches I worried more about the general shapes and structures of the `Mechs rather than details, so they look a little sparse. But they were literally an exercise in me focusing on clear and readable shapes and silhouettes rather than fine detail, as the latter must always come later. This mostly thanks to some advice I got from asking other artists for help and advice. While less impressive overall than my more detailed sketches, as a practice exercise to focus more about defined and readable shapes they were very helpful for me to work on.

Back to the Marauder, I think its got a lot of little structures put together to create a body (this most obvious in the torso) with breaks between segments that interrupt the flow of the lines. It's actually a problem with the Reseen Marauder and a lot of the Project Phoenix designs. The basic form and structure of these `Mechs get broken up by extraneous details that work to interrupt the eye as it follows the shapes, rather than these details working to accentuate the shapes. I don't want to redline your drawing without your permission as that could come off as cheeky, I think the appearance of bulk is mostly because there are a lot of strong lines and shapes that run perpendicular to the flow of the torso. The Marauder has traditionally been about sweeping lines from back to front, and the long legs accentuate the impression of sweeping, predatory, graceful lines. (That said, the Mektek version is clearly better than the classic unseen in this regard, as the classic MAD is a bit too gangly to look properly predatory in comparison.)

You work leans toward solidness and hard lines, and sometimes details added to the solid shapes feel bolted-on. Also, you sometimes tend not to fully armor your guns, like the dorsal gun in your sketch. Exposed and detailed mechanisms like this have a way of breaking the flow of shapes and lines and should be done sparingly. Also, big guns tend not to look quite as detailed as handheld weapons and most `Mech mounted weapons in Battletech tend to look much simpler than the lovingly crafted small arms you might see in the hands of a realistic soldier.

I do like the choice of detailing on the Marauder's cockpit, you just need to integrate it further into the forms and shapes of the body a little more.

FD also has a clear and apparent love for crunchy mechanical details, but he also has an undeniably strong understanding of the structure and physicality of every `Mech he draws (something I'm very jealous of!). If you take in-game models of every `Mech in MWO's beta at the moment, scrub them clean of all textures, paint, and surface detailing, you would be left with only the naked shapes and forms that combine to create each `Mech. And you would be able to see just the shapes and how they interact.

Look at the tabletop Hunchback, it's one of the most boring-looking `Mechs in existence with the chunky AC being the only detail of interest. The shapes that make up the torso tend to be flat, squarish, and aligned to other body parts and proportions through right angles. The structure is clear to see and it's flat and boring.

And look at FD's Hunchback, and see how the torso glacis is redefined by gentle slopes and lines that sweep across the chest, leading the eye. (Used the founders version since the paint job accentuates the shapes that form the torso plating more clearly.)

For the Marauder's torso, I think a good place to start might be looking at the flow of shapes and angles on the Founder's Catapult, as it's much sharper and more streamlined than the default Cat. The pontoons at the side of the reseen Marauder could be added and integrated into the shape of the torso so that it looks less like someone bolted a pair of pods to the side of the CT (like on the Project Phoenix MAD). When fully integrated into the structure, they should vaguely resemble the body of an Apache helicopter, I think. This is one of the reasons why I like ACS' Marauder so much, all of the details and homages to the reseen MAD were integrated into a sleek and predatory torso without breaking the overall flow of the lines. (Linked so others can know what I'm talking about.)

Your distinctive MAD cockpit detailing is definitely an asset, though, it just feels separate from the rest of the body.

At the core, it's about having confidence that the basic shapes you've chosen to define the underlying structure of the `Mech look good even without detailing. Once you have a confident structure, you can start to accentuate the structure with details. Attempting to drown out the simple shapes underneath the details is something a lot of artists do when they're not confident about the structure of the objects they're drawing.

I should know, I'm working through the process of emphasizing structure over detail myself! Obviously my Thug's main weaknesses come from the basic underlying structure looking flat while the rest of the details look bolted-on. I tried to conceal that with a bit of flair and some sharp detailing but you saw right through it. This means you know what I'm talking about.

My Wraith painting was actually the most recently completed piece in the OP, and it shows. I'm starting to strike that balance between structural confidence and interesting detail and that's where I put the results of my quiet and mostly hidden practicing.


It does help that I gave myself a crash course in Photoshop operation some months before, though!

EDIT: Oh, but your Thug is much better than the canon Thug, yes.

Edited by TG Xarbala, 20 August 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Illegal Username]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

*Shrugs* not gonna rehash, it's just too massive and bulky. I dunno if you have seen my finished version, it actually took a lot of the input from you, and others, and I would say ended up somewhere between my lanky original (which is closer to canon, but that is not always a good thing, lol) and Shimmering Swords.

Spoiler

Funnily enough, while the reviews have been mostly good, one relatively common comment is that it looks too massive, like a Marauder II now, lol. Can't win for losing. Unfortunately, without the know how or patience to layer, matte, paint and whatever else, it will always look second rate.

I like the contrast between your and TG's design. TG's one looks like it's been carefully designed and rolled fresh off the assembly line. Yours looks like someone went "Christ almighty stop worrying about how it looks, it's stable enough so just gimbal the ******* Gauss rifle on top of it and tell the engineers to START WORKING"

What i am saying is i like it

[Bishop Steiner]

TG Xarbala, on 20 August 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Actually I do have a tendency to make heads smaller than they need to be. It's a habit that's mostly due to my wonky sense of scale and my subconscious telling me that `Mechs are bigger than they actually are. I'm still embarrassed by the Hellbringer's head, but I haven't edited it mostly out of posterity and as a grim reminder to keep things proportionate to their pilots.

I'm really glad people caught on to the repeated Warhammer homages I stuck into the Ryuken section of the big `Mech sheet. Though with the Wildebeest I was worried it'd be a little too blatant. Really, a lot of the DS heavies were designed with some element of Warhammer design in each of them, though some more than others. Redesigning the classic Unseens is an exercise I think every aspiring BT artist ought to give a try, myself included. Speaking of which!




As far as your Marauder, Bishop, I think I see why it gives the impression of bulkiness. A lot of your work does feel very heavy, though I mostly keep my opinions to myself since lacking a proper art education I don't have the same vocabulary and analytical eye more well-trained artists do. But from lurking your threads, I've noticed you do tend to break up the silhouettes and shapes of your `Mechs with a lot of details, protrusions, and other outcroppings that break up the flow of lines. You've got a love of detail, but sometimes the details overshadow the underlying structure and forms of the `Mechs proper. When detail starts to overshadow the fundamental shapes that define a form, I think that's when a design starts to look busy--in fact, that was a criticism rightly levelled onto my TRO:3063 `Mechs, the Thug especially. (You were pretty sharp to catch that! It was a problem that I'd noticed a long time ago and kept quiet about lest I draw peoples attention to it! I actually gave a shot at fixing the Thug's torso issues with the Yabai Yatsu.) The Experimentals and Prototypes `Mechsheet was actually done much later than the TRO:3063 pieces, Rolling Thunder, and the Clan Omnis. With the Capellan and Ryuken sketches I worried more about the general shapes and structures of the `Mechs rather than details, so they look a little sparse. But they were literally an exercise in me focusing on clear and readable shapes and silhouettes rather than fine detail, as the latter must always come later. This mostly thanks to some advice I got from asking other artists for help and advice. While less impressive overall than my more detailed sketches, as a practice exercise to focus more about defined and readable shapes they were very helpful for me to work on.

Back to the Marauder, I think its got a lot of little structures put together to create a body (this most obvious in the torso) with breaks between segments that interrupt the flow of the lines. It's actually a problem with the Reseen Marauder and a lot of the Project Phoenix designs. The basic form and structure of these `Mechs get broken up by extraneous details that work to interrupt the eye as it follows the shapes, rather than these details working to accentuate the shapes. I don't want to redline your drawing without your permission as that could come off as cheeky, I think the appearance of bulk is mostly because there are a lot of strong lines and shapes that run perpendicular to the flow of the torso. The Marauder has traditionally been about sweeping lines from back to front, and the long legs accentuate the impression of sweeping, predatory, graceful lines. (That said, the Mektek version is clearly better than the classic unseen in this regard, as the classic MAD is a bit too gangly to look properly predatory in comparison.)

You work leans toward solidness and hard lines, and sometimes details added to the solid shapes feel bolted-on. Also, you sometimes tend not to fully armor your guns, like the dorsal gun in your sketch. Exposed and detailed mechanisms like this have a way of breaking the flow of shapes and lines and should be done sparingly. Also, big guns tend not to look quite as detailed as handheld weapons and most `Mech mounted weapons in Battletech tend to look much simpler than the lovingly crafted small arms you might see in the hands of a realistic soldier.

I do like the choice of detailing on the Marauder's cockpit, you just need to integrate it further into the forms and shapes of the body a little more.

FD also has a clear and apparent love for crunchy mechanical details, but he also has an undeniably strong understanding of the structure and physicality of every `Mech he draws (something I'm very jealous of!). If you take in-game models of every `Mech in MWO's beta at the moment, scrub them clean of all textures, paint, and surface detailing, you would be left with only the naked shapes and forms that combine to create each `Mech. And you would be able to see just the shapes and how they interact.

Look at the tabletop Hunchback, it's one of the most boring-looking `Mechs in existence with the chunky AC being the only detail of interest. The shapes that make up the torso tend to be flat, squarish, and aligned to other body parts and proportions through right angles. The structure is clear to see and it's flat and boring.

And look at FD's Hunchback, and see how the torso glacis is redefined by gentle slopes and lines that sweep across the chest, leading the eye. (Used the founders version since the paint job accentuates the shapes that form the torso plating more clearly.)

For the Marauder's torso, I think a good place to start might be looking at the flow of shapes and angles on the Founder's Catapult, as it's much sharper and more streamlined than the default Cat. The pontoons at the side of the reseen Marauder could be added and integrated into the shape of the torso so that it looks less like someone bolted a pair of pods to the side of the CT (like on the Project Phoenix MAD). When fully integrated into the structure, they should vaguely resemble the body of an Apache helicopter, I think. This is one of the reasons why I like ACS' Marauder so much, all of the details and homages to the reseen MAD were integrated into a sleek and predatory torso without breaking the overall flow of the lines. (Linked so others can know what I'm talking about.)

Your distinctive MAD cockpit detailing is definitely an asset, though, it just feels separate from the rest of the body.

At the core, it's about having confidence that the basic shapes you've chosen to define the underlying structure of the `Mech look good even without detailing. Once you have a confident structure, you can start to accentuate the structure with details. Attempting to drown out the simple shapes underneath the details is something a lot of artists do when they're not confident about the structure of the objects they're drawing.

I should know, I'm working through the process of emphasizing structure over detail myself! Obviously my Thug's main weaknesses come from the basic underlying structure looking flat while the rest of the details look bolted-on. I tried to conceal that with a bit of flair and some sharp detailing but you saw right through it. This means you know what I'm talking about.

My Wraith painting was actually the most recently completed piece in the OP, and it shows. I'm starting to strike that balance between structural confidence and interesting detail and that's where I put the results of my quiet and mostly hidden practicing.


It does help that I gave myself a crash course in Photoshop operation some months before, though!

EDIT: Oh, but your Thug is much better than the canon Thug, yes.

well...I probably took your input TOO literally. Decluttered and simplified the lines. Not in love with the results, but maybe that is the point? If the basic shapes by themselves don't rock your socks, then all the details and doodads in the world are really just window dressing?

Spoiler

*shrugs* Well, regardless, the more input, the more I learn.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 December 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[Feindfeuer]

I actually like your cleaned-up version (but i like almost all your mech designs anyway), though i'd prefer if the linework was a bit more varied between the outlines of modules and details on said modules. I'm not an artist, so this may sound stupid and i may be wrong, but i think it would be easier to see the exact make up and design details of the mech if the outlines/borders were thicker, or the details thinner. Making it easier to tell one from the other with one look.