47 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

with the current skill setup and module setup, requiring all the variants to be trained in order to move up to the next tier, which subsequently determines models space, space which will limit which modules you can use, and skills which will determine what roles you will be suited for:

1) This will create situations in which mechbays MUST be purchased to get 100% role diversity
2) A content cut off, and where as a severe mech type limitation will be imposed on anyone who does not want to purchase mech bays.
3) Forced situations where as someone may have to dispose of 1 mech inorder to purchase a variant in order to to further advance.
4) Divided content between casual non role specialized players, and player who do have role specialization and all the variants and mechbay space required..

Edited by ManDaisy, 05 February 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[CoffiNail]

Well from my understanding is anything purchasable through the real life cash store can be saved up and purchased with cbills in game. So sure, one can go and spend 20 dollars, get 4 more mechbay slots and the 4 mechs for those bays, or a player can grind, not pay money and have to save/spend their cbills on the mechbay slots and 'Mechs to fill them.

Edited by CoffiNail, 05 February 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[KJ Crow]

That was my understanding as well CoffiNail... am sure I read it in one of the many many other threads concerning P2W scaremongering.

For the love of all that is holy, can we give these guys a break and stop seeing P2W behind every decision they make. They already know that with this community any form of P2W would result in public lynchings.

So please... someone lock all P2W threads until after we have seen the actual pay structure.... once we see that, we can either open them up (To start planning our community invasion of Canada!) or slap all the P2W doomgoblins around the head with a hearty 'Told you so!'

[CoffiNail]

I know, I know... it is Paul, but if anyone has been paying attention to the DEV blogs, and iirc, Free to play games are Paul's specialty. He has a lot of knowledge on the topic and is well versed in this modern day gaming world of F2P internet games.

[armitage]

A few points I'd like to make...

1) You are implying that you must retain ALL variants in order to reach the next tier. It is entirely feasible that you could max out a variant, sell it to buy the next variant, rinse and repeat. Also, who's to say that each variant will require a Mechbay. Maybe the mechlab will allow switching of variants back and forth at will or for cbills, thus negating the need for 5 mech bays for 1 chassis and all its variants.

2) We also do not know how many mech bays a player will be given to start with, or how many if any will be purchasable via cbills.

Although devs have stated anything is purchasable with in game currency lets be honest, not everything will be available in the game without having to spend hard currency. As much as I hate comparing this game to World of Tanks as and example, WoT did a great job of giving you access to everything you needed to be successful. Plenty of chassis', 2 ammo choices, upgrades, etc. You couldn't get ALL of the tanks or hangar slots with in-game currency, but you also didn't need them. The only p2win game break in my opinion is the "Gold" ammo, if MWO implements such an overpowered pay 2 win concept, I will spend a fraction of the real currency (if any) than I would otherwise.

[Kael Tropheus]

In their defense, I believe I have read that no tactical advantages will be able to be purchased through the store with real currency unless something has changed. To me this includes mechs since a different model of mech is a tactical advantage.

I am glad the shift in mechbays seems to be going away from the free for all of the previous MW games and into a more canon-like mechbay. So when can I get my Annihilator? Ill pay for an urban paint scheme, or even better a WW2 Autumn Pea Dot camo scheme (My table top merc company unit scheme heheh)

This is off topic but I dont think its important enough to start a new thread for it and you people seem to be in the know, can we have multiple characters? Say a merc assault role character for that aspect of the game and a House pilot to take part in that aspect? I love multi-characters and switching around all the time to keep things fresh.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Kael Tropheus, on 05 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

In their defense, I believe I have read that no tactical advantages will be able to be purchased through the store with real currency unless something has changed. To me this includes mechs since a different model of mech is a tactical advantage.

I am glad the shift in mechbays seems to be going away from the free for all of the previous MW games and into a more canon-like mechbay. So when can I get my Annihilator? Ill pay for an urban paint scheme, or even better a WW2 Autumn Pea Dot camo scheme (My table top merc company unit scheme heheh)

This is off topic but I dont think its important enough to start a new thread for it and you people seem to be in the know, can we have multiple characters? Say a merc assault role character for that aspect of the game and a House pilot to take part in that aspect? I love multi-characters and switching around all the time to keep things fresh.

I have no problems with things like mechs being up for RMTs so long as a method exsists for getting it using ingame C-Bills. Then it just becomes a matter of how much you really want that mech/weapon. Enough to grind for it, or enough to shell out a couple bucks for it.

But to stress it, nothing in the cash shop should exsist PURELY in the cash shop unless it has no tatical value. You want to put a paint scheme in the cash shop that you can't get otherwise? I'm cool with that, but keep my mechs, guns and ammo on the C-Bill market as well.

A game I play called Global Agenda lets you buy top teir weapons for 15 USDs a pop, or you can grind out 30k ingame tokens for them at a rate of about 200-300 a match. Another thing that balanced it out were minimum requirements on the weapon. You need to reach a min of level 30 ingame (which a fairly good player could hit in about 20-25 hours) before you could use the weapon, and 30+ characters were put into a seperate match maker cue then other people, so you couldn't stomp on people that couldn't equip it.

Edited by Ranek Blackstone, 05 February 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[Kaemon]

Anything they do that involves real money someone's going to cry Tactical Advantage™ and light the torches.

There's an awful lot of speculative leaping over the P2W cliffs when we have very little to go on in that department (except repeated statements by the devs that they are not going down that road).

I know dev statements can only be taken in the context of their preception of the game state, but they see more than we do, so at this time, we don't have payment info yet (is Payment warfare the last month before BETA? ) so we should really try to keep the fear mongering to a minimun (or at the very least save it until it's really needed).

And there is a fine balance between the game being F2P (which makes them nothing mind you) and a successful micro-transaction model that makes them money (cause they ain't putting up with our constant crying for free, now, are they?).

And to the OP, no mechbays aren't make or break for P2W, the items being sold in the mech bay will decide if it's pay to win....leave my poor mech bay alone...

*hugs the mech bay*

There, there....it'll be alright..you don't have to repair the bad man's ship...he can use the tools in the shed out back.

Edited by Kaemon, 05 February 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[Elizander]

ManDaisy, on 05 February 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

with the current skill setup and module setup, requiring all the variants to be trained in order to move up to the next tier, which subsequently determines models space, space which will limit which modules you can use, and skills which will determine what roles you will be suited for:

1) This will create situations in which mechbays MUST be purchased to get 100% role diversity
2) A content cut off, and where as a severe mech type limitation will be imposed on anyone who does not want to purchase mech bays.
3) Forced situations where as someone may have to dispose of 1 mech inorder to purchase a variant in order to to further advance.
4) Divided content between casual non role specialized players, and player who do have role specialization and all the variants and mechbay space required..

This is nitpicking and to be honest, you can nitpick and argue anything regarding any standard F2P model as P2W. It's fine to dispose a mech if you don't have enough space and if you want more than one role then make another account since those are free.

Any mech you lose you can just buy again so that really isn't an issue. Just keep whatever mechs you really like to use and save 1 slot for the disposable mech to get more pilot skills.

This argument isn't anything new to be honest. People have gone this way and complained about every single thing that can be bought in a cash shop for almost every game. People who pay will have more convenience. Can you get your pilot maxed out by deleting mechs and leveling a new one? The answer is probably yes. Is it convenient? Probably not, but it doesn't prevent you from maxing out your pilot either.

[Lorcan Lladd]

But what the OP is referring to is still just grinding; it still takes real time invested in each 'Mech variant you're required to pilot in order to reach Elite experience tiers, so you're not paying to win - at best, you're paying in order to have more convenient access to those 'Mechs, probably saving you some headache, but not giving you any glaring advantage over non-paying players.

If the producers or developers start selling experience points or boosters, pay to win could very well become a real concern, but even then the plusses you get from each 'Mech experience level are so insignificant that a more skilled player in a 'Mech with no experience should still be able to remain competitive even if his or her adversaries are all piloting Elite tier 'Mechs.

And that's all just conceptual; the system is still being fleshed out and no statements have been made with regards to in-game shops or other economy plans for the game.

Edit.
Well, I assume the plusses are not stackable - even if they are, though, thus incentivating grinding, I don't see how being 20% Cooler will give anyone an advantage in battle.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 05 February 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Elizander]

Lorcan Lladd, on 05 February 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

But what the OP is referring to is still just grinding; it still takes real time invested in each 'Mech variant you're required to pilot in order to reach Elite experience tiers, so you're not paying to win - at best, you're paying in order to have more convenient access to those 'Mechs, probably saving you some headache, but not giving you any glaring advantage over non-paying players.

If the producers or developers start selling experience points or boosters, pay to win could very well become a real concern, but even then the plusses you get from each 'Mech experience level are so insignificant that a more skilled player in a 'Mech with no experience should still be able to remain competitive even if his or her adversaries are all piloting Elite tier 'Mechs.

And that's all just conceptual; the system is still being fleshed out and no statements have been made with regards to in-game shops or other economy plans for the game.

Edit.
Well, I assume the plusses are not stackable - even if they are, though, thus incentivating grinding, I don't see how being 20% Cooler will give anyone an advantage in battle.

Boosters really are just more of what you mentioned - less grinding. Boosters won't let you go beyond maximum level; they just let you get there faster. It's the same thing with grinding and deleting mechs due to lack of storage space.

The point is that everyone would be the same at end game. Things that change how you reach end game doesn't really matter.

[Outlaw2]

In the end they have to make money. Mechbays confer no advantage once the match starts, so I ok with ti.

Its a quality of life imporvment for sure, but won't win you games on its own.

This mimics those summoner pages in LoL. Won't win you games, but lets you have more diversity in playstyles.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 05 February 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[Mchawkeye]

ManDaisy, on 05 February 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

with the current skill setup and module setup, requiring all the variants to be trained in order to move up to the next tier, which subsequently determines models space, space which will limit which modules you can use, and skills which will determine what roles you will be suited for:

1) This will create situations in which mechbays MUST be purchased to get 100% role diversity
2) A content cut off, and where as a severe mech type limitation will be imposed on anyone who does not want to purchase mech bays.
3) Forced situations where as someone may have to dispose of 1 mech inorder to purchase a variant in order to to further advance.
4) Divided content between casual non role specialized players, and player who do have role specialization and all the variants and mechbay space required..

Speculation. And not even the good kind that has some kind of back up.

The have already said that no advantage will be given to people with the cash compared to people on the grind; other than speed, of course.

And anyway, even if you do have to buy other mech bays, buy them! This isn't a world-on-the-plate moon-on-a-stick situation, free to play yes, but they have to make money somewhere; MWO is not a charity.

You are not entitled to get everything for free.

if you can't afford it, well the you don't get to have it. Just like everything else in life.

The difference here is that the Devs are not being complete wankers about it and actually make a fully functioning actually free game. Can't you just appreciate that?

[Shalmyan Moonsong]

If you want to play for 50 hours a week and save up the C-Bills to buy your mech bays, then do so. In a battle it offers no advantage. Sorry you can not have every mech and the game and change them around at will. You can get the mech bay slots you just have to buy them in game with C-Bills, save your money and do it.

I personally will be willing to pay 20 bucks for four mech bay slots, because I manage a restaurant 60 hours a week and can not play a game for 40-50 hours a week, but having mech bay slots gives me no battlefield advantage, other then I might have more mechs to choose from. Want the mech bay slots save your C-Bills and get them, beyond that, you get what you pay for.

[Dlardrageth]

Mchawkeye, on 05 February 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Speculation. And not even the good kind that has some kind of back up.
[...]
You are not entitled to get everything for free.

if you can't afford it, well the you don't get to have it. Just like everything else in life.

The difference here is that the Devs are not being complete wankers about it and actually make a fully functioning actually free game. Can't you just appreciate that?

This, to be honest! All the people now whining about how MWO will actually take some effort to get everything in their hangar up to snuff should consider it could be much worse. I'm not going to denigrate people who don't have the money (temporarily perhaps) to invest into MWO, but you have to take a look at alternatives.

What if it were to additionally charge you a solid 100 bucks for getting the game initially "in a box"?

What if you only get to use your MechBay and do any sort of customization as a subscriber in addition (mixed sub/F2P model)?

What if MechBay slots won't be one buck or two but 10 or 50 bucks per? Or only for rent temporarily? Or you'd have to buy them in lots of 5 for 50 or 100 bucks?

I have some confidence in PGI being smart about this and employing a model where it takes into account that not everybody can or would spend 100 bucks every month. But would send some money their way once it is available. Because that is how you form a "bond" with your customers long-term, taking into account not everybody has infinite money available at all times and allowing the game to remain attractive if you haven't spend any money for a month or two (for whatever reason).

Of course, if you think that is totally wrong you're free to start your own game company and develop something "better" to show us how it is done. Just don't expect "instant gratification" with that one either... anyone who has even remotely been involved with game development can tell you that!

[EDMW CSN]

Anyhow BT has always being hit point based. This isn't WOT where some tanks are down right immune from lower tier vehicles.
No matter how overpowered a mech, it can be whittled down to pieces over time. Or a lucky hit to the head or a plucky scout landing solid hits to the rear torso.

Just that there must be a BV + tonnage balance to both sides. Which I believe PGI can do a fine job handling.

[Tadakuma]

I've played two games that went F2P extensively, D&DO and LOTRO and the F2P model can and does work well in these games.

I've also played battlefield heroes and my main gripe was that the points didn't go a long way, from memory $20 would buy you an outfit which was a little rich in that regard.

I don't mind paying $5.00 or so to pimp up a ride or character, but once your looking at more then that and I start feeling like I would have preferred to buy the game outright.

[Kaemon]

Tadakuma, on 06 February 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

I've played two games that went F2P extensively, D&DO and LOTRO and the F2P model can and does work well in these games.

I've also played battlefield heroes and my main gripe was that the points didn't go a long way, from memory $20 would buy you an outfit which was a little rich in that regard.

I don't mind paying $5.00 or so to pimp up a ride or character, but once your looking at more then that and I start feeling like I would have preferred to buy the game outright.

Y u no like $70 monocle?

http://www.pcgamer.c...asers-involved/

That man is the richest whose pleasures are the cheapest. -- Thoreau

Edited by Kaemon, 06 February 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Kael Tropheus, on 05 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

In their defense, I believe I have read that no tactical advantages will be able to be purchased through the store with real currency unless something has changed. To me this includes mechs since a different model of mech is a tactical advantage.

I think its more accurate to say that nothing that has an in game advantage can be bought with real money that cannot also be bought with cbills. They have already said that you can buy mechs with real money. This is pretty typical. Money is a shortcut, but not an advantage in the end.

[Aegis Kleais]

I'm confused. Where exactly is it confirmed we can purchase Mech (Repair) Bays?