58 replies to this topic

[Naughtyboy]

Durant Carlyle, on 06 February 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

MASC doesn't benefit from high heat levels. Perhaps you are thinking about Triple Strength Myomer (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/TSM) instead?

Ahhh..yes ofc..mixed them up...thx for adressing it mate

[trycksh0t]

SilentObserver, on 06 February 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Maybe we could have a system were heat is constantly being reduced on the mech. It could be based on how many critical slots and tonnage you allocate to heat reduction hardware. It would make sense for it to run all the time.

Just shooting in the dark here but lets say 1 ton and 1 critical for each piece of heat reduction hardware. If a critical slot gets hit then the system loses 1 ton of head reducing capacity.

Now i just need to think up a name for these heat reducers. Give me some time. i'll think of something

Ahahahaha! Genius. Needed a good laugh, thanks.

As for coolant flushing, I'm fully in the no crowd. Where ammunition based weapons are balanced by being heavy and ammo-dependent, energy based weapons are primarily balanced by heat. Even with it's limited use, the ability to instantly reduce the heat of your 'Mech throws the weapon balancing completely out the window. If energy-boats get coolant flush, I want the ability to reload my AC ammunition and missiles when they run out.

[Aegis Kleais]

Though I thoroughly enjoy games where we can play no-heat and unlimited ammo for when I just want to tear things up, the Heat-On Limited Ammo play is, for me, just as essential, because it provides that craving I have for a tactical need to watch and determine ammo reserves as well as maintain a configuration that can dissipate heat accordingly.

To that end, I'm not really against the idea of a flushing coolant (as another tactical management system) for an emergency need of heat relief, but I think MW4 did not do it well, because it allowed for players to still effectively boat energy weapons and maintain the integrity of the Mech.

Personally, I hope for the ability to flush, but you would only get enough coolant to bring a critically overheating Mech down to safe temps once. If you want more coolant, head back off the front lines or away from an objective and get back to the Mech hangar/bays (if they exist) A pro/con to everything.

[PewPew]

I think people are too set in the idea that coolant flush has to be the way it was in previous games. Without flush coolant, or an activated ability that gives battles more human variable, fights are much less complex. In close quarters brawl, energy mechs will have an optimal firing pattern which puts as much damage out possible for a sustained period of time (all else being equal).

With the introduction of coolant, and thus, a human variable, players are forced to think twice when engaging a hot mech in close quarters, while those in energy mechs might have a last card to play.

The problem with previous flush coolant dynamics was that there was simply too much coolant, and it could be used whenever you wanted as long as you had some left. This is EASILY fixed without removing a huge aspect to the gameplay. For example, mechs could have a limited number of flushes, e.g. two/three flushes per round that would reduce temperatures by X Kelvins, dependent on a function of current temperature, coolant temperature, and environmental temperature. Also, the game can always incorporate cooldowns for the ability (no pun intended).

If you look at successful PvP games, they all have systems and rules by which everyone plays(Health, mana, heat), and then abilities which add a human aspect to it (healing, potions, coolant). To remove this would be to dumb down the combat dynamic. I have a strong feeling MWO will have something similar to what I described. They're doing a fantastic job so far of creating the right complexity of combat.

Edited by PewPew, 06 February 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Tryg]

I think the more important question here is what would the purpose of incorporating coolant flushes as on-board capabilites be? To allow energy based mechs to over-come the downside of their loadout in the midst of a firefight?

Someone else earlier mentioned this as well, should ballistic or missile based mechs get a similar ability that grants a fast-reload in the event they run dry in the middle of a firefight?

I'd have no problem with off-board (cooling trucks) flushing on the field provided it required the mech utilizing it to remain idle for a short duration (time delay to account for hooking the mech in, then cooling starts, a few seconds for the flush, the a short delay for disconnecting) Not an exceptional time, just something that makes a coolant flush a tactical consideration rather then a 'given' (And they don't have to be incapacitated for it either, just static. So they could fire...but at the risk of reducing the effects of the flush (as they're now throwing more heat into the mix) The onboard 'hit this to reset heat' button is just silly, why would anyone choose not to utilize it? And why even make heat a consideration if it can be reduced to close to insignificant on the battlefield?

[SilentObserver]

Coolant trucks should only be allowed on the field if I can target them.

I dont know how it will work in practice. But i know in MW4 heat dropped off so fast that if you just stopped firing and ran back to some base for a coolant flush, by the time you got there your mech would be completely cooled off. Making the truck kind of useless unless it followed you around the battle field.

I do like the Idea of ammo trucks though (targetable and prone to explode, but there in the back for a reload if you have the time)

[PewPew]

I like your ideas of having it be a tactical consideration rather than a given. My only problem is that it doesn't feel right to have coolant trucks driving around.

I don't believe that coolant flushing should be a reset, though. The amount it cools should be dependent on the margins of gameplay. Right now, I feel like one coolant flush should let you fire something like a PPC one more time, or a pair of lasers one more time. Of course, the system should be tested extensively both in beta and then adjusted through patching once the metagame is established and the developers are getting feedback through in game metrics.

[Nick Makiaveli]

SilentObserver, on 06 February 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Coolant trucks should only be allowed on the field if I can target them.

I dont know how it will work in practice. But i know in MW4 heat dropped off so fast that if you just stopped firing and ran back to some base for a coolant flush, by the time you got there your mech would be completely cooled off. Making the truck kind of useless unless it followed you around the battle field.

I do like the Idea of ammo trucks though (targetable and prone to explode, but there in the back for a reload if you have the time)

Unless my memory is failing faster than I realize, I think back in the day the trucks were mostly for after a battle, ie replace the "used" coolant etc. I think there was mention of them being used in a sieges to help maintain constant fire.

IE more a lore thing than something you actually encountered on the battlefield.

[Zakatak]

How about a map on The Rock? Low-gravity, 10 minute rotation. When it faces the sun, the water boils and the heat sink efficiency goes to 50%. When it faces away from the sun, 200% heatsink efficiency and the water freezes over.

[Tryg]

It was rather my point that it seemed silly, and Silent nailed the point exactly, cooling times are not unreasonable. There really isn't any need for a coolant flush.

In a long game, Energy based mechs take the edge because they don't have to concern themselves over ammunition, where ballistic/missile based systems do. The flip side of that is that in short engagements, ballistic/missile rigs have the edge, because of their lower heat generation compared to mechs running racks of lasers and PPC's.

Coolant flushes remove that edge in short conflicts, reducing the weakness in energy designs and not granting anything more then a modest aid to non-energy setups, who aren't so pressured by the heat scale.

[trycksh0t]

PewPew, on 06 February 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I think people are too set in the idea that coolant flush has to be the way it was in previous games. Without flush coolant, or an activated ability that gives battles more human variable, fights are much less complex. In close quarters brawl, energy mechs will have an optimal firing pattern which puts as much damage out possible for a sustained period of time (all else being equal).

With the introduction of coolant, and thus, a human variable, players are forced to think twice when engaging a hot mech in close quarters, while those in energy mechs might have a last card to play.

The problem with previous flush coolant dynamics was that there was simply too much coolant, and it could be used whenever you wanted as long as you had some left. This is EASILY fixed without removing a huge aspect to the gameplay. For example, mechs could have a limited number of flushes, e.g. two/three flushes per round that would reduce temperatures by X Kelvins, dependent on a function of current temperature, coolant temperature, and environmental temperature. Also, the game can always incorporate cooldowns for the ability (no pun intended).

If you look at successful PvP games, they all have systems and rules by which everyone plays(Health, mana, heat), and then abilities which add a human aspect to it (healing, potions, coolant). To remove this would be to dumb down the combat dynamic. I have a strong feeling MWO will have something similar to what I described. They're doing a fantastic job so far of creating the right complexity of combat.

I will concede to you the point that other PvP titles generally involve some form of direct control over things like health and mana, I disagree that MW:O needs to copy this. If WoW allows healing spells and potions, should MechWarrior add in consumables or abilities that repair your armor and internal structure at a moments notice, or repair damaged components like WoT? I would say no.

I will also point out, again, that coolant flushing only benefits 'Mechs that run hot, almost by definition energy heavy designs, giving them an advantage over 'Mechs that rely on ammunition based weapons. If a Hunchback runs out of AC/20 ammo in the middle of a firefight, he's basically humped, as that just removed his primary weapon. A Warhammer, on the other hand, will only lose it's PPCs through destruction or running too hot to safely fire them without shutting down or destroying itself. Removing that threat of overheating, even if it can only be used a limited number of times, gives that pilot a significant advantage in combat.

As for it "dumbing down" the combat, I completely disagree. NOT having control adds a lot more to the experience. You have to know what your 'Mech can handle, control your weapons fire, and really THINK if that next shot is going to be worth it. Do you take that extra large laser shot at something that'll push your 'Mech into the lower red, or cool off a bit and add a medium in with it? Do you stand and fight, or try to disengage to get behind cover and cool down before the next encounter? Heat should be a major factor, more of a "Oh, crap. Heat scale in orange, gotta take a minute to cool down." instead of a "Oh, heat's getting close to red. Better flush quick so I can get another PPC shot in."

[DarkTreader]

Y'know, as far as heat goes... I'd love to see something that gives a kind of player response to heat. Sure, having your 'Mech cooking to bits is all great, but what bout the pilot? There were plenty of canon stories about pilots cooking themselves to death in their own 'Mechs.

I'd love to see something where, if you run your 'Mech hot enough long enough, your screen vision starts to blur, your focus goes all batty, things of that nature. I know it'd be a little odd to see, but I think it could really add to the sim feel of this. Add on to that something like after your 'Mech shuts down from heat, there's just an arm that clumsily reaches up and pops the canopy release on your 'Mech to try and cool it off? That'd make for some interesting fighting... peg someone with an open canopy, hello salvaging mostly functional 'Mech, goodbye enemy pilot

[Solis Obscuri]

PewPew, on 06 February 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I think people are too set in the idea that coolant flush has to be the way it was in previous games. Without flush coolant, or an activated ability that gives battles more human variable, fights are much less complex. In close quarters brawl, energy mechs will have an optimal firing pattern which puts as much damage out possible for a sustained period of time (all else being equal).

With the introduction of coolant, and thus, a human variable, players are forced to think twice when engaging a hot mech in close quarters, while those in energy mechs might have a last card to play.

The problem with previous flush coolant dynamics was that there was simply too much coolant, and it could be used whenever you wanted as long as you had some left. This is EASILY fixed without removing a huge aspect to the gameplay. For example, mechs could have a limited number of flushes, e.g. two/three flushes per round that would reduce temperatures by X Kelvins, dependent on a function of current temperature, coolant temperature, and environmental temperature. Also, the game can always incorporate cooldowns for the ability (no pun intended).

If you look at successful PvP games, they all have systems and rules by which everyone plays(Health, mana, heat), and then abilities which add a human aspect to it (healing, potions, coolant). To remove this would be to dumb down the combat dynamic. I have a strong feeling MWO will have something similar to what I described. They're doing a fantastic job so far of creating the right complexity of combat.

I disagree, coolant flush mostly lets players mash their Alpha Strike and Coolant Flush keys as alternating "Oh ****! buttons". Removing that option forces players to consider tactically how far they can push their 'mech, and give some edge to missiles and autocannons in a fight. Without coolant flush players in energy-weapon-only 'mechs can still choose to push themselves to the point of shutdown if they think it will let them cripple or destroy an opponent, but they have to take a gamble in doing so.

Personally, I hope ammo explosions also offer a real threat in this game, not just a few inconvenient damaged systems - this will provide some additional limits on redlining 'mechs with mixed armaments. I'm also hoping that fitting out double heat sinks isn't a readily available option, as it tends to really trivialize heat management and make energy weapons a much better bargain per pound than ballistic weapons or missiles.

[Psydotek]

+1 for coolant pods
-1 for coolant flush

Coolant pods should also explode like an ammo explosion if hit.

[SilentObserver]

Zakatak, on 06 February 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

How about a map on The Rock? Low-gravity, 10 minute rotation. When it faces the sun, the water boils and the heat sink efficiency goes to 50%. When it faces away from the sun, 200% heatsink efficiency and the water freezes over.

Well in a near vacuum(assuming no atmosphere due to the massive temp shift and low gravity) heatsinks shouldnt really function at all. Conductive heat transfer is orders of magnitude more effective than radiant heat transfer.

DarkTreader, on 06 February 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Y'know, as far as heat goes... I'd love to see something that gives a kind of player response to heat. Sure, having your 'Mech cooking to bits is all great, but what bout the pilot? There were plenty of canon stories about pilots cooking themselves to death in their own 'Mechs.

I'd love to see something where, if you run your 'Mech hot enough long enough, your screen vision starts to blur, your focus goes all batty, things of that nature. I know it'd be a little odd to see, but I think it could really add to the sim feel of this. Add on to that something like after your 'Mech shuts down from heat, there's just an arm that clumsily reaches up and pops the canopy release on your 'Mech to try and cool it off? That'd make for some interesting fighting... peg someone with an open canopy, hello salvaging mostly functional 'Mech, goodbye enemy pilot

I know TT had rolls for pilot damage if you kept your heat to high. Before automatic shutdown you had to roll or die. Not sure how well that would work in a mechwarrior game, but i would love to see mechs start to slow down and the weapon accuracy drop off as stuff starts to heat up.

[Gyre]

Although my knowledge of Classic Battletech and older Mechwarrior games is limited I remember seeing references especially in illustrations to "venting". I'm not sure how this worked but I agree with others who feel that giving players more options in terms of managing heat will increase the enjoyability of the game by making combat more variable. Could venting be used to give some control to the player?/is it the same as a coolent flush?

[geck0 icaza]

Well I could be wrong but the devs have consistently said the "Sim" word over and over. And I haven't seen too many sims without a deep learning curve. Having coolant flush builds in A LOT of forgiveness. Too much really.

I remember playing MW4 with a beam boat in the desert. I had heat yeah, but so long as I had coolant I was fine. Learned to pop up, alpha, drop back and just tap the coolant slightly if needed to keep my self from shutting down. The heat would drop to manageable levels before the cycle rate was up and off I went again. Depending on how much I needed to fire I could keep that up forever while only spending the absolute minimum coolant needed. It was automatic and shut down was never a real concern. (I know I know shameful MW4 tactics, but I played competitively so you had to play by the game's rules)

To the above example.. when put into a context of a game that is (based on all the info the devs have stated thus far) "a mechwarrior sim", built off of the "source material" I have to say ***?

1) Coolant pods as far as I know aren't around in this time yet anyways. (doesn't mean they wont have something like it but might keep it for future additions, who knows really?)

2) Source material = Battletech. See #1 above

I know I know "but they said the environments will do away with long range pop shots and etc etc". With that aside, one of the reasons things like that were possible is because of coolant. Which is one of the many reasons why it shouldn't be there. It isn't a test of Skill using coolant, it's a safety net for those who lack it.

[Iron Horse]

yngvef, on 06 February 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

I just realised that I've been playing MW4 and reading about BT too much this weekend:
I was going to work and the outside temperature was about -29C (-20F)... And all I could think of was: This would be great Battlemech-weather. I could easily slap on an extra pulse laser here.

That made me think about MWO: I hope the maps will be diverse, with temperature spanning from "Pluto" to "Hell", because it will force completely different gameplay... provided that heat management still is a highly important issue in this game.

I actually hope that heat management is as deep and complex as it should be. Heatsinks, coolant flush, ambient temperatures, standing in water, exposed to wind, forest fires... All these things should have a tactical effect in the game.

A map should have different temperatures at different places, unlike in MW4 where the entire map is the same. Sun and shade should have different effect, as well as altitude. It will never be the same temperature on a 100 m (300ft) tall hill, as it is in the valley next to it.

What do you think? How difficult/complex should heat management be in MWO?

I really liked the way map-heat was handled in MW3 (with heat being a larger factor in battles, especially on the beach), except that most maps were just varying factors of warm and there weren't really any "cool" maps that I recall. The exception to this was Pirate's Moon (all maps had the same temp, I think). Even though MW3 was my first full-fledged introduction to MW, I do remember a head-scratching moment when the tutorial instructor started talking to me about coolant flushing. Even though I got used to it, I could see an argument for removing this from gameplay. Besides, you don't need a flush if there are a few strategically placed ponds and waterways around .

I also liked the OP's point about temp variation across a single map. I doubt this will happen, but I'm crossing my fingers.

I just wanted to mention to the OP that he's not the only one who imagines 'mechs running around all the time. Where I live there are tons of windswept rolling grasslands, mixed in with industrial buildings, oil refineries, and even an abandoned airport all within sight of the beach. Some of these just seem like perfect locations for 'mech battles to me (with a little bit of 31st-Century imagination of course). In some of these I could see a real use for combined classes too, as scouts rush ahead to the next rise, while the Heavies and Assaults move up to take and hold them, the whole time watching all the nearby ridges for signs of counterattack with itchy trigger fingers. This type of terrain and combat I think would fit nicely with PG's current descriptions of Role Warfare (plus I just really want to see that style of play in a 'mech game ).

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think heat management is going to be a crucial part of how the game plays. When heat rises there should be all the appropriate cosequences. Chance of ammo explosions, speed loss, targeting problems etc as have been detailed in previous threads. They also need to come up with a method wich balances energy weapons against AC's to offset their many disadvantages. Until we know this then there will be no reason to play a standard Hunchback for example instead of the Swayback variant (if incided). The Swayback does more damage and has no ammo to explode or run out.