74 replies to this topic

[Liam]

I would use it probably after pop out of cover and shooting while full stop time and by waiting up of backwards acceleration delay. The most critical time for a mech being easy target. Also to side step out of building conner, especially if you can shoot with AC arm will be probably viable.

[Mims]

http://en.wikipedia....ng_%28gaming%29

strafing, and side stepping are the same thing. and completely pointless with a torso system. you can have the same possible outcome, but the mannar you acheive it is different. it's not simply a 1 button dodge system, yet allows for a greater general mobility. there are not enough buttons on a keyboard for an extra movement variable, maybe not a problem to have an extra feature on a joystick, but any more keys than this game is already going to have is burdensome to keyboard/mouse players. Two extra keys for redundant movement is not really what is needed.

[SilentObserver]

DaZur, on 08 February 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

You may want to read back a ways... at no point did I say Mechs should strafe... I'm 110% agreeing that this would be silly by anyone's standards...

for simplicity purposes, I proposed this maneuver could not be carried out at any speed greater than 1/3rd the Mechs tops speed... The movement is nothing more than a lateral step away from center with one foot, and a recovery back to center with the other foot. Hardly a strafe by any stretch of the imagination...

Why do this instead of the previously proposed equivalent of rotating torso 45 to 90 degrees and doing the Mechwarrior Cha-Cha? I postulate that do to acceleration, inertia and deceleration this maneuver is actually less efficient and counter intuitive than the slide-step.

Where would one use it? Simple... Anywhere the pilot has full or partial cover (urban areas... hills, mountains, jungles...) and wishes to at least partially shield their Mech from direct fire and or if they are just being sneaky and peeking around corners in a recon role.

and you.... OOOOOOOOOOh... jimmy'ing between two building would be pretty keen.

Why wouldn't sidestepping have to deal with Acceleration and inertia? That does not compute. unless it was a fixed speed for all mechs and a very slow speed at that.

[Solis Obscuri]

SilentObserver, on 08 February 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Both A and B require you to slow down. I think it would be more like:


E: approach boulder at full run,

Tilt joystick to the left, rotate stick to the right in one fluid motion. (or hit the A key to turn left and move your mouse to the right to rotate torso).

Tilt joystick to the right, rotate stick to the left to recenter torso with legs after i'm past the boulder.

Go screaming past your lancemate who decided to slow down so they could sidestep. (and will now be destroyed by the hunchback you where running from).

Wow, why not just tie your LOL"lancemate's" shoelaces together while performing a twirling cartwheel before hand-springing over the boulder, melting it down to metallic ore with you jump jets as you reach the other side, then swiftly fashion your own AC/20 and headshot that Hunchback while performing a forward combat roll over the smoking remains of your "friend"?

Mims, on 08 February 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ng_%28gaming%29


strafing, and side stepping are the same thing. and completely pointless with a torso system. you can have the same possible outcome, but the mannar you acheive it is different. it's not simply a 1 button dodge system, yet allows for a greater general mobility. there are not enough buttons on a keyboard for an extra movement variable, maybe not a problem to have an extra feature on a joystick, but any more keys than this game is already going to have is burdensome to keyboard/mouse players. Two extra keys for redundant movement is not really what is needed.

That was sort of my original thought, but the idea is growing on me. As long as the movement speed isn't too fast, I think it would be a good feature. 'Mechs shouldn't have to execture a 3-point turn in order to step past a building or avoid a small obstacle, the whole point of having 'mechs is that they are more agile and tactically flexible than a tank, not less.

It would require a little different control interface than the old fwd/reverse throttle used in other MW games, but I always found that kind of an odd feature, given that balance and movement were supposedly being controlled through the pilot's neurohelmet feeds, and the 'mechs legs are powered by myomer "muscle" bundles, not a conventional shaft or belt drive system.

[The Cheese]

I can't see how this would be useful.

Sidestepping would ideally be too slow to use for strafing, lest it be abused. The argument that it could be used for poking your head out to see/shoot around an obstruction seems fine, except that, like all mech movement, it would have to be subject to acceleration/deceleration rules, rendering it about as useful as the 'twist torso and walk forwards and backwards' scenario, albeit with fewer actions required on the part of the pilot.

Also, if sidestepping, you will be pointing your legs directly at the wall (or close enough to it). In this event, how fast do you think you could run away if you yourself were spotted from behind or from the side? Certainly not as fast as you could if your leg orientation were parallel with the wall that you're peeking around.

Many of you seem to be taking it as a given that you MUST be flat out wall hugging to get the effect of peeking around a wall...

Mechwarrior is NOT a big, slow, tanky FPS.


edit:
I guess my real mode of thinking is this: MW is a tactical game. Tactics imply forethought. Excersize a little forethought with your piloting, and you won't need to sidestep past that boulder or hug a wall to peek past it.

Edited by The Cheese, 08 February 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[VYCanis]

one would think the last people to be against having more buttons to play with would be mechwarrior players.

we FEAST on buttons.

it could be handled numerous ways, the most straightforward way would obviously be like having lean keys in an FPS. However that doesn't work well with joystick axises. So simply having a toggle would probably fit the bill, hold it down and use your usual turn keys/axis, As has been said before, it should really only be used under a given speed threshold

however having an abrupt speed limit between no sidetep and sidestep seems a bit strange. So instead, how bout this. At low speeds holding down the key and a turn control sidesteps, but the faster you are moving, there is less lateral shift, until by a little past walk speed and up, it merely adds a little bit of lean to your movement, helping you turn a little tighter.

this increases its usefulness somewhat in that at moderate speeds, you'd be able to add some small eccentricity to your movements, and make mech movements a little less predicatble.

try it out, walk or jog down a hallway, try shifting your movements in a zig zag pattern without actually turning.

Edited by VYCanis, 08 February 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Orzorn]

I'm imagining it as a single keypress that only does a single sidestep. You don't hold it and keep strafing like in an FPS. You more or less use it to peek out from a building, then hop back behind.

[VYCanis]

that is adorable

[Orzorn]

VYCanis, on 08 February 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

that is adorable

Its also piloted by kittens, powered by a love reactor, and fires cute seeking missiles that release showers of candy on impact.

I call it...the Cuteapult!

[MaddMaxx]

Orzorn, on 08 February 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

I'm imagining it as a single keypress that only does a single sidestep. You don't hold it and keep strafing like in an FPS. You more or less use it to peek out from a building, then hop back behind.

Although a tad quick as an action, if you draw a Line down the screen at the outside of the right (facing) POD and then watch where the Cat ends up after a step.

It is with one POD available to Lock on, Fire and then step back.

[Liam]

like it.
toggle mode should work, ex.: Alt + A/D
The animation looks maybe bit dumb, but there no joint moves are considered. With correct kinematics this would look really cool.

Edited by Liam, 08 February 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[DaZur]

SilentObserver, on 08 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Why wouldn't sidestepping have to deal with Acceleration and inertia? That does not compute. unless it was a fixed speed for all mechs and a very slow speed at that.

Oh they do... but at less than 1/3rd their max speed (this was an arbitrary number I pulled out of my Mechs aft entry... but the numbers work.) Acceleration would be nominal as would inertia dependent upon the speed of the mech.

I have to chuckle because It seem some board members are caught in a vicious circle where any thought of lateral movement is immediately perceived as strafing...

Different Mechs have different speeds, center of gravity, etc so it goes without saying some Mechs would be more proficient / adept at performing this maneuver.

Battlemaster = 95 tons, 65 km/h (40 mph) longer legs so CofG is higher... 1/3rd speed = roughly 20 km/p (12 mph) - I would imagine this Mech's lateral movement defiantly would not be considered "blazing"...

Locust = 20 tons, 129 km/h (80 mph) fairly low CofG... 1/3rd speed = roughly 40 km/h (24 mph) - This Mechs lateral movement would be relatively faster but not disproportionately so...

To draw a simile, an NFL offensive lineman to a running back... While both can obviously move laterally, their agility is night and day.

Edited by DaZur, 08 February 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[The Cheese]

DaZur, on 08 February 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I have to chuckle because It seem some board members are caught in a vicious circle where any thought of lateral movement is immediately perceived as strafing...

That's because for almost all popular games that are played from a 1st person perspective, lateral movement does equate to strafing (Yeah, yeah, I know they're technically not the same thing).

[SilentObserver]

Solis Obscuri, on 08 February 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Wow, why not just tie your LOL"lancemate's" shoelaces together while performing a twirling cartwheel before hand-springing over the boulder, melting it down to metallic ore with you jump jets as you reach the other side, then swiftly fashion your own AC/20 and headshot that Hunchback while performing a forward combat roll over the smoking remains of your "friend"?

Except the manuever i described is not hard. its basic piloting skills. Just like in a FPS like you have to learn how to circle strafe in mechwarrior you will need to become good at torso twist to succeed.

Solis Obscuri, on 08 February 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

That was sort of my original thought, but the idea is growing on me. As long as the movement speed isn't too fast, I think it would be a good feature. 'Mechs shouldn't have to execture a 3-point turn in order to step past a building or avoid a small obstacle, the whole point of having 'mechs is that they are more agile and tactically flexible than a tank, not less.

I can't remember ever having to do a 3 point turn. at the worst i had to come to full stop and rotate my legs.

Orzorn, on 08 February 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

I'm imagining it as a single keypress that only does a single sidestep. You don't hold it and keep strafing like in an FPS. You more or less use it to peek out from a building, then hop back behind.

The problem with this animation is that after the first step the cockpit still isnt past the line of the wall (assuming the mech was completely obscured) so you still cant fire on the target because you cant see them. but they can now see your left "arm" hanging out past the edge of the building.

DaZur, on 08 February 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Oh they do... but at less than 1/3rd their max speed (this was an arbitrary number I pulled out of my Mechs aft entry... but the numbers work.) Acceleration would be nominal as would inertia dependent upon the speed of the mech.

I have to chuckle because It seem some board members are caught in a vicious circle where any thought of lateral movement is immediately perceived as strafing...

Different Mechs have different speeds, center of gravity, etc so it goes without saying some Mechs would be more proficient / adept at performing this maneuver.

Battlemaster = 95 tons, 65 km/h (40 mph) longer legs so CofG is higher... 1/3rd speed = roughly 20 km/p (12 mph) - I would imagine this Mech's lateral movement defiantly would not be considered "blazing"...

Locust = 20 tons, 129 km/h (80 mph) fairly low CofG... 1/3rd speed = roughly 40 km/h (24 mph) - This Mechs lateral movement would be relatively faster but not disproportionately so...

To draw a simile, an NFL offensive lineman to a running back... While both can obviously move laterally, their agility is night and day.

The only reason i bring up acceleration is because someone above mentioned that as the reason while a 90 torso twist, fwd/reverse was not as good. Assuming you move forward/ reverse at the same top speed as a lateral movement. there is no reason to believe that the mech will accelerate any faster with a side step. So if they both take the same amount of time to perform. both bring the same number of weapons to bear with the same amount of exposure to the pilot. Why spend the time and effort putting in more animations, adding more rules and testing additional controls for a manuever that very few people will actually use.

I would also like to point out if you use the torso twist pop out method you have the option of slamming on the gas to accelarate across the alley. you would not have that option if you where sidestepping.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

With the torso twist method as well you could just slam into reverse to get back as well. This however presupposes that we will have a 90 degree torso twist on all mechs. PGI may decide otherwise for game balance reasons and to differentiate between mechs. After all some mechs don't have torso twist? I would be happy with the sidestep, maybe if standing still you could do several to clear the wall?

[Caballo]

A battlemech can't do a side step basicly because the hips of EVERY bipedal battlemech are made to do a rotary movement over its longitudinal axis. Look at every model if you want, you won't find a single one able to do what that "animation" is trying to.

It's perfect as it is. As said before, you don't need a side step when you can turn your mech's torso 90º relative to the legs and move foward.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 09 February 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

After all some mechs don't have torso twist?

¿Which one?

"Every battlemech is equipped with a torso..." ¿Remember?... There are some 'mechs who can't reach those 90º, of course (a few, fortunately)... and there are some who can twist it 360º... learn to pilot them all.

Edited by Caballo, 09 February 2012 - 02:05 AM.

[John Clavell]

From a lore perspective, yes Battlemechs can sidestep and, as other have said, even go beyond, at the hands of a vet pilot. Remember when Phalen was on the rock just before and during the engagement with Clan Wolf? Pushing Grinner to the max, shifting weight around to change direction much faster to avoid the incoming fire, certainly one of the awesome moments in Battletech history described in the books.

As to the computer games and MWO, I'm not against side stepping, however. First it should not be like in an FPS. Using a side step should be something you can use but it has to have a negative. I would see it as a last chance move to try avoid some incoming fire, but it should leave you exposed slightly or have a cool down timer, It's not something you should be able to do so your just side strafing around like in an FPS.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

A lot of people here are assuming that we can torso twist 90 degrees. I don't have access to the source material at the moment, can anyone tell me where it is laid down that this is so?

[DaZur]

Clearly this dead horse has been sufficiently tenderized...

Just by cursory count, the majority of participants do appreciate a side-step (slide step... side-shuffle... what ever you want to call it) as a viable maneuver. That said, only a few appreciate it at a logical maneuver in contrast to a torso-twisted cha-cha. Fewer yet, cannot get past the idea that any lateral movement is the equivalent of FPS'esk strafing...

I see this all as a worthwhile discussion as it made us all think and opened up some very interesting debate. Whether or not PGI sees this discussion a valuable and were able to glean anything from it, we'll have to wait and see.

For clarity purposes, allow me to summarize my position:

• Mechs should be able to side-step at a greatly reduced speed (arbitrarily less than 1/3rd rated max speed)
  
• Ability to successfully execute a side-step should be tied to a pilots skill-tree. (Anyone can try to execute it at risk of potentially falling on their proverbial Mech butt.. Essentially, XP equates to a more highly trained pilot).
  
• A Mechs mass, CofG, leg configuration and leg/hip joint configuration should all be considered whether or not a Mech is capable of a side-step.

[Kaine Vulpayne]

Caballo, on 09 February 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

A battlemech can't do a side step basicly because the hips of EVERY bipedal battlemech are made to do a rotary movement over its longitudinal axis. Look at every model if you want, you won't find a single one able to do what that "animation" is trying to.

That's not entirely correct. Although there are afaik no mechs that have a spherical hip joint like that of a human which would allow three degrees of freedom for rotations, it seems like they have at least a joint that allows a vertical rotation (like if you you stand straight and then rotate your leg so as to stand with your toes 45° to the side, like the famous Charlie Chaplin pose). If you look at the Hunchback in the concept arts (in the upper left corner of this website), he has twisted his right leg outward so that it points to the right side and not to the front of his lower body (as does the left leg). So this is either a non-canon drawing, showing a posture that the mech is unable to assume OR (some) mechs have indeed hip joints that allow at least two degrees of rotary freedom. Same goes for the atlas, centurion and the dragon (look at the concept art images).
Catapult probably not - which is a problem for those ornithoid-legged mechs. (in reality they probably wouldn't function at all or at least it would be a PITA to keep them balanced, as they can not just stand straight with knees locked as a human could and thus standing very stable)

From the technical point of view, a machine that can only rotate its hip joints around a horizontal lateral axis (=1DOF) would most probably be unable to walk at all, at least it could not change the direction and could only walk straight forward and backward. Not to speak of the awesome motions that BattleMechs are supposed to be able of performing.

From several pictures it can be assumed that at least the humanoid mechs can even more lift their legs sideways at least to a small degree (look at the other hunchback image where he still has his arm). Should be enough to perform a sidestep from a standing position at zero speed.
Even with only forward and vertically rotating hips a mech should be able to perform a sidestep, maybe not at a perfect lateral 90 degree angle, so it would be a somewhat diagonal sidestep.

TL;DR
Mechanical techno-babble arguments are no reason not to have this feature at least on some mechs!
I want it. This could be one distinction between mechs with humanoid and ornithoid leg layout. The former are more stable (less prone to falling from collisions) and can perform said sidesteps, the latter should be better (==faster) at sprinting. Just watch an ostrich run and you get the idea.