31 replies to this topic

[Aidan]

Here is a quote from the MWLL forums. This is a response by CoffiNail to a post by Mitchpate. As you will read, Mitchpate, an Administrator on the NetBattleTech league support team, suggests that PGI is wrongly marketing the MechWarrior Online game. What do you think MWO community and MWO Developers?

---------------------------------------

CoffiNail ---- PGI started working on actual development in late October. What do you want them to do, toss out ****** screenshots that have little polish and have half the gaming community go, holy **** those suck, why would i bother even playing this game those shots suck so much, oh look there goes what could have been a good game.
Mitchpate ---- PGI's problem is they broke the #1 rule with game development, you don't announce the game and release date before you have a fully functioning alpha. They were in such a rush to start "building hype" that they forgot there are rules and protocols to this process. You announce the game and release ingame screenshots or a teaser trailer. People don't care that it's early-alpha, by the time you announce it's assumed the game is polished enough to produce images representative of the game. Then you release more and more screenshots and teaser videos leading up to the open beta and/or pre-order stage. THEN you start releasing concept art as a filler to show off assets and features that people haven't seen yet. Only at that point is concept art actually useful for hype building because players can take a poorly drawn asset and imagine how good it'll look in the actual game. You hold some of the best assets for this stage and people get really excited because you're hinting at what's to come but aren't actually showing them. Valve, Blizzard, EA, Activision, they all do this and force their contracted development studios to do it as well. PGI *significantly* deviated from this model and that alone should be raising red flags but the problem is far too many give the benefit of the doubt on this and that's only encouraging them to continue NOT behaving like a normal game development company. The excuse given is that it's free-to-play and while that may excuse some of it, it does not excuse all of it.

-------------------------

[Vernius Ix]

I like what PGI is doing in getting the community involved as early as possible. It will allow them to create a early dialogue with the hardcore MW user base that will help influence the design of the game.

[ManDaisy]

A product for the players, influenced and shaped by the players is the most satisfying feeling. It ties PGI and the player base deeply. I won't mind if the early versions are not so good, as long as I can see that progress and an effort is being made.

IF PGI was a **** company like EA then I would be worried because they are fire and forget. They dont care about updating old products. They want to make money up front by selling a new thing every year... much like horrible microsoft word or apple ipads.

I remember a story when Mechwarrior 3, THE ONLY MW3 in my book was shut down from MZN gaming zone even tho it had a strong player base. This of course was to make room for Mechwarrior 4 so that there would not be cross product canabalism. EA also canceled it launch of is3025 when microsoft announced its release of the abominable mechasshalt.

I will continue to following PGI as long as they stick to their F2P forever continuing and co-evolving business model.

Edited by ManDaisy, 08 February 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Kaemon]

I can see both sides of the argument, I do think they've set themselves up for risk in stating a hard soft date (sorry they said late summer 2012, there is not a hard date) for Go-Live already, and I agree with his assertion about the updated trailer.

Let's not follow the big pub houses canned PR approach to launching games, because there is a major disconnect from the playerbase in those models (and let's face it, MW:O would've had to start the Hype Wave about 2 years ago and waste millions on advertising).

Honestly I don't think they're worried about playerbase, as much as getting the game mechanics right (which I'd rather see than tons of marketing and little thought shown toward the actual game)...*cough* SWTOR *cough* *cough*.

Dusty in here.

And not to bash MW:LL but Whiskey Tango Foxtrot do they know about marketing a game, what is their current marketing budget? Is it more than what I spent on parking downtown and my coffee this morning? (cause I doubt it).

Edited by Kaemon, 08 February 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[Ghost]

I wish I knew where CoffiNail is pulling that imaginary start date from. Initial estimates indicate his posterior.

[Chuckie]

I think he is wrong.. You can tell they are listening..

I think how the whole F2P works is a new animal, and by having this forum they get to listen to who experienced players like and don't like. BEFORE its too late the change. So in the end the final product is more to the groups liking.

I think its a great idea to get us all involved so early.

Not only that, they did have a video its just going on 3 years old. I fully expect the game will look close to the 2009 video.

Ghost, on 08 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I wish I knew where CoffiNail is pulling that imaginary start date from. Initial estimates indicate his posterior.

Will take a wild guess that he based it on the fact it was late October when they announced the game. I personally think they have been probably working on the game since spring, and development in ernest around summer.

I base that on Infinite Game Publishing only registered its domain on July 11 2011. So that gives a rough idea of the time frame the whole MMO thing had been conceived, papers signed and given a green light.

October 14th 2011 was the date www.mwomercs.com was registered so that gives an idea of when they were ready to go.

Edited by Chuckie, 08 February 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[HanaYuriko]

The argument looks like the one between Legacy Publishing and the newcomers who know how to market and sell products on the Internet.

Legacy Publishing (ie. long term members of the MPAA, RIAA, and various Writers Guilds) have shown that they are stuck in the era before 1995. When they were pretty much the sole gate keepers for pushing out content. Then the internet hits, and people in general started to rely less and less on these gatekeepers for their entertainment.

There's a blogger that writes for Techdirt by the name of Mike Masnick that came up with a deceptively simple business formula:

CwF+RtB

Connect with Fans + Reason to Buy. It was an idea on how Hollywood and the Music industry can deal with issues such as unauthorized internet downloads of movies and tunes. By giving people what they want as a way to compete with the "free" downloads found online.

The idea is to build up a community around a product. Connect with your fans, and engage them directly as much as possible. Develop a rapport with your core audience. This community engagement gives people a Reason to Buy. You can see it with musicians like Radiohead, Trent Reznor, and the guys behind OK GO. Plus there's a new crop of movie producers (Kevin Smith being one of the big names) to go around the legacy publishers and tune to the internet and programs like Kickstarter.

PGI seems to be doing exactly this. There's already a core group of fans (us!) and this community portal serves as a way for them to connect to us and us to them. Plus their Dev Blogs, teaser images from artist Alex and everything else that's found around here. Not to say they haven't eschewed the traditional processes of harking their wares through magazines and published interviews with review sites and gaming networks.

Edited by HanaYuriko, 08 February 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Kaemon]

Pushing the Go-Live (it's not a start date, it's already been started ) date is usually a bad idea, and it gets the playerbase riled up as they start the whole 'it's vapourware, it'll never launch' threadnaught launching on the forums, which makes it to the game review sites, which then gets to the new players that are deciding if they want to bother checking it out or not.

Usually Go-Live gets published at about Beta (Open or Closed) so that means the devs know probably end of Alpha start of Closed Beta when it makes sense to do it (and that's based on bug fixes, content, art, Paul's vacation schedule, blah blah blah..).

What's the old joke?

A publishing house launches a new MMO, and they interview a developer who has a great resume.
They hire him and he's incredible, knocks out projects and codes like a madman, he's so good they fire all the other devs cause they no longer need them.

They think great! this is going to be awesome.

So they have a meeting and say 'we're going live on this date, so we'll need everyone to be hands on during that time cause it's going to be crazy'

The dev who is doing all the work raises his hand and says 'but I have another job lined up on that date."

WOMP WOMP!

Edited by Kaemon, 08 February 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@Ghost-From the date of Dev Blog 1 as the start of "work"? Immaterial anyway as the majority of people here are pretty happy with the way PGI are doing things. Let's face it it's not often that the dev's talk to the fanbase like this. Let alone put up with all the speculation and fantasy theorising

[CoffiNail]

Ghost, on 08 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I wish I knew where CoffiNail is pulling that imaginary start date from. Initial estimates indicate his posterior.

@bryanekmanBryan Ekman

Last day of the sprint. Lots to do, lots to see. Exciting times! Next week is a training week, looking forward to learning lots about tech
14 OCT




@Cry_SeanTSean Tracy

@bryanekman @russ_bullockWish I could have made it out there this week! I hope things are going well with the guys.



20 Oct via web

There was another post from Bryan I think it was, but i cannot find it.

Cry SeanT is one of the MWLL Devs who got a job at CryTek due to MWLL.


I have always had a damn sure guess this is IDing the CryEngine 3, and the fact they just had their training on the game engine

Edited by CoffiNail, 08 February 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Tryg]

It amazes me how rigid people can become with "The way things are" Especially in an industry thats constantly meant to be on the cutting edge. Just cause something has traditionally been done a certain way, doesn't mean that's the best way to do it. (Back of the bus cause you're different!) And so far as releasing a planned date...even those traditional companies do that...and half the time they miss it anyway. Half the games I've bought in my life (at release) I had to wait a month or two (or six) beyond their initial release date because of some unforseen problem. Anyone who considers themselves a true gamer understands that any date thrown out there is the 'target date' and not the true 'release' date. If everything goes according to plan, the two line up. If something goes wrong... well release date has always in my mind been the actual day the product drops, so it can't truely be pre-planned until the product is packaged and ready to go.

As for their deviant methods... if every game developer spent this much time interacting with the community during the development of their games, I'm quite sure I'd have fewer games, cause I'd be too involved in the ones I had to pick up a new one every couple months out of boredom.

I can see aspiring to earning the type of money major players in the industry do. But aspiring to be like them in the manner they develop games? That's a horrid goal. The last thing we need is more companies who believe the best way to keep a franchise alive and money flowing is to reskin their game, toss a few new maps in and another lame story-arc then call it new (Sorry to any CoD fans that offends, but it's the way of things).

PGI also has an advantage here that other titles haven't had. Fan Loyalty. Battletech and Mechwarrior have a very, very fanatical base, and that base will wait as long as they have to. Will they whine and complain? Sure, but they'll wait. And if the game releases in six months, or a year, they'll still be able to be hyped up for it. So if they were trying to drum up hype for a new game, the model they're using might not be the best bet. But for Mechwarrior, it can be done, so why not do it? Just being different from the large companies who view their customers as little more then wallets will be to their benefit.

[Chuckie]

Tryg, on 08 February 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

And so far as releasing a planned date...even those traditional companies do that...and half the time they miss it anyway. Half the games I've bought in my life (at release) I had to wait a month or two (or six) beyond their initial release date because of some unforseen problem.

i could care less when the official release date it.. as long as they meet a date relatively soon for beta (and I am invited) I am good with it takes as long as it takes..

[Joseph Calvert]

An important point about the dev's and fanbase communication is that the dev's have access to a Huge pool of knowledge on the Battletech universe. And most of the time the dev's just have to read through the threads on a topic.
They get to see our hopes for this game and what will kill this game in a heart beat if they do it. It's a win-win situation the dev's gain access to a wealth of knowledge to help craft this game and we get a game( i pray) we'll love.

Let the other publishers talk, I want MY battletech.

[Felicitatem Parco]

They published the Concept Art for Half-Life [2 Episode] 3, and they still haven't really shown any in-game footage.

I'm not complaining, it looks cool and tells me where they're taking it.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"that they forgot there are rules and protocols to this process."

Wow, never knew that. Would love to see the Industry published Document that gem came from...

The only thing I have seen is...the Dev make the Rules and decide on the Protocols...while the communities always seem to find time to GRIPE about how said Dev are always not doing it right... LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 February 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[armitage]

There are two ways to go about it, you can be an Adopter or an Innovator.

Adopters take a proven method, apply their own ideals and maybe push the boundaries of the box a bit but never really break the mold. Following a known successful plan may give you the best odds at acheiving a goal but it does not guarantee it.

Innovators devise a method based on the challenge before them, take everything into account and do what they feel is the best approach. Some may follow a predetermined path with a twist or at extremes may step out of the box, away from the circle, and jump off the cliff. Some of the biggest failures have come from this ideaology, many of the biggest successes have also come from this ideaology.

Point being there is no right answer. Mechwarrior in F2P is new territory. Its an old IP with a fanatical fan base and the ability to attract a new players as well. How many of you hang on the edge of your seat every wednsday morning to see what new info will come out (I know I do). The worst that can happen from release of information before screenshots or alpha is a few people might get bored and lose interest. I guarantee those people will all be back with screen shot and videos get released.

In my opinion Mitchpate is just being narrowminded and self absorbed as usual. Piranha has made no catastrophic mistakes in marketing.

[Bullwerk]

PGI is doing it wrong? Really?

• So the fact that they have attracted the attention of their playerbase and gotten them onboard from the start is doing it wrong?
  
• Building hype and immersion for the intended player through the ISN and other methods is doing it wrong?
  
• Taking input from the playerbase made up of Rabid fans that will lynch you if you do it wrong, is doing it wrong?
  
• Making it a point to let that rabid fanbase know they haven't been forgotten as so many of us have feared in the last decade is wrong?

If this is all true then I emplore PGI to continue doing it wrong, doing it wrongER if it's possbile!

In my not so humble opinion the "rules and protocols to this process" can go suck water uphill! The big time developers have deemed the BT and MW fanbase as unworthy of their attentions and efforts over and over again. Given that fact alone their method of doing things, their playbook, and their rules mean crap to me and probably the majority of the community here. We like what PGI is doing and we encourage it strongly. I pray that they keep to their word so I have an excellent game to play and can drop money on it left and right to show my appreciation for their hard work and faithfullness to the fans.

Oh and to be fair... If they do get it wrong it will not be pretty!

[Bryan Ekman]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. To be perfectly honest, most of the games I have worked on, had marketing schedules that started well before pre-alpha/alpha. We have a very carefully planned strategy to start our marketing my telling people about MWO, then move to showing them MWO. This is all happening in a very compressed timeline, which we are smack dab in the middle of.

I've been estactic about how we've rolled our our PR/Marketing program, as it represents and reflects the style of game we are making.

To answer the start time - pre-production started in July, full productoin started in October.

[Kael Tropheus]

What's the fan number on their facebook page now? and they are they doing it wrong why?
I love the way the company did this. I have never been involved on a community forum of like minded individuals, especially where the devs take part in the actual conversations from time to time for any other game. Most of us are old fans from Battletech and really want a game based on (at least for me) one of our favorite sci-fi universes. I do hope the devs a: ignore that message and b: actually get a good idea or two from the forums they can incorporate into the game.
Keep up the good work PGI.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Thanks - does this mean that your going to go against "industry standard" by launching on time (or for some games, even the same year)