232 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

http://mwomercs.com/...of-destrustion/

I say if you shoot my arm or torso or leg for that matter your shots don't magically bend to my center torso. That was just a table top rule to keep form having too many hit tables. To hit my center you gotta hit my center.

Edited by ManDaisy, 09 February 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[HATER 1]

VYCanis, on 09 February 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

its not a realism thing, its a gameplay thing.............
There needs to be a legitimate reason to aim for the arms

there is, so we can shoot the soon-to-be-implemented laser swords out of each others hands. :-D

this conversation is going on too long, and this poll is kind of borderline trolling. The only reason that limb destruction never really made it well in the other MW games is hardware/software restrictions.

now, i can't understand the logic behind any other choice in the poll other than what the rules say would happen... destruction of the torso means you lose the limb(falls off), and damage transfers to the CT. total warfare pretty much tells you that the terms destruction/destroyed are pretty much abstract, and what it means in the game is something is no longer usable. BEFORE anybody gets all huffy about "this isnt BT, its MW!!" recall that the BTU is the underlying rule system for MW, and if it doesnt follow it to some respectable level (remember, abstract is a key word here), it is not mechwarrior, but "WalkingTankWarrior".

VYCanis, on 09 February 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

TL-DR its not far fetched to have something "destroyed" but still there capable of soaking more damage or holding things together. its just a matter of all that mangled mess still being there an there as dead metal where there is very little you could do to it that hasn't been done already.

you forget an important aspect of that mangled metal tho: if it is successfuly keeping your arm on, more damage can be done to it. ergo, it is not destroyed. maybe all the arm and torso systems are critted out, and it is not working, but its not destroyed if that limb hasn't dropped (lost all structural support). there is plenty of room to maneuver within the rules to make almost everyone happy, until people get their expectations too far out.

[TheBossHammer]

When the side torso is "destroyed" or by definition has its structure reduced to zero, it should halve the power to the arm it mounts and cut the ammo for ballistics by half as well, and any hit powerful enough (there should be a threshold, such that an Autocannon or Large Laser can do this but a machine gun can't...) should blow the arm clean off, leaving a hole to hit the center torso. If that isn't possible then use the MW3 rules where losing the side torso kills the arm, but I think Piranha can do better than that given the power of the engine.

This should be balanced by the fact that the armor on the left and right torso is significantly stronger than the armor on the arms, and if an arm gets blown off, it should leave a hole to hit the side torso at a significantly reduced level of armor.

Edited by TheBossHammer, 09 February 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Name140704]

Structure reduced to 0 means destroyed, gone, kaput!, bye. If that structure now has an ability of 0 to hold form, how is it going to hold an arm with structural, armor, and component weight?

[MaddMaxx]

Well then perhaps the Right and Left Torsos should be sub-divided such that there is an Upper and Lower, with the Lower carrying the Crit space and any Ammo bins required on that side of the Mech, with the upper carrying the Support and wiring structure for the arm itself, as well as any weapons mounted on it. Eazy peezy

Many have asked for MORE Hitboxes. The thread thought, although BT based, seems to reduce that #. (shrugs)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 09 February 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[NotNewHere]

I think the arm should become partially non functional if the arm is only critted, but fall off if the arm is totaly destroyed. And if your mech steps on a arm thats been left on the battlefield and its still got ammo inside...

[Marauder3D]

I'm fine with losing use of the arm, but I want it hanging there, protecting my ruined side torso. That way it actually serves a purpose. If someone cores the LT, at least the arm should be there, useless, serving as a shield until someone goes to the effort of shearing it off.

[Graefin Zeppelin]

Torso gone, arm gone. No need to reinvent Battletech here.

[Mason Grimm]

Well in the TT rules I believe the arm goes with the torso however for "video game" purposes they could do this.

Torso reduced to 0 = arm on that side nonfunctional but still attached
Torso reduced < 0 = arm and torso both gone, cored out and blown out

Tricky bit of planning to implement something that is both fun and functional.

[Nick Makiaveli]

ManDaisy, on 09 February 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...of-destrustion/

I say if you shoot my arm or torso or leg for that matter your shots don't magically bend to my center torso. That was just a table top rule to keep form having too many hit tables. To hit my center you gotta hit my center.

Not sure how this applied to too many hit tables. Could have simply said if you hit a destroyed area, the shot is wasted. I think it was more a speed up the game decision as well as not penalize ammo based mechs.

That said, some of that logic still applies to MWO. Unless the game tracks where the shot would have gone if the torso was missing (and again just because it has zero ability to hold components doesn't mean ALL the structure is blown away, see the aforementioned car crash comments) and have it miss or hit based on that, I think this would be a decent compromise.

Another thing is unless you have a actual hole where the torso used to be, then explosive rounds/missiles will still explode and could easily transfer damage to the now exposed CT area.

[Zyllos]

I agree with the assessment of 0 structure points left means anything attached to that structure goes with it.

But, I think locations should be able to be rendered completely useless, in terms of components, ammo, ect, in a location and still contain structure points for holding together the components attached to it.

Seems straight from BT, critical locations and structure points. Lose all structure points and you lose everything attached. Still maintain 1 structure point? Then everything attached is still usable.

Edited by Zyllos, 09 February 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Mason Grimm, on 09 February 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Well in the TT rules I believe the arm goes with the torso however for "video game" purposes they could do this.

Torso reduced to 0 = arm on that side nonfunctional but still attached
Torso reduced < 0 = arm and torso both gone, cored out and blown out

Tricky bit of planning to implement something that is both fun and functional.

There's a thought, give it half to a third of it's original structure as "negative points" and when those are gone it's GONE. As in arm falls off, hole in the side of your mech, sparks flying etc etc.

[Colonel Bogey]

I don't think that the arm should fall off. Stop saying if your left torso as a human or right was blown off by some calibre of gun you would be like oh no my arm is falling off. You would be dead. There is like no way to survive multiple heavy calibre bullet wounds around your heart or primary blood vessels (arteries or where ever you think you are shooting). Steel is different from the tissue layers of the epidermis. And we are talking about endo steel or variations of science fiction metals. It is up to game designers to determine how strong their molecular bonding is and whether the arm would be torn off. For all we know it could hang on until significant damage was dealt to the shoulder. How will the Endo steel muscle affect this. Will it hang uselessly, be torn off by the destructive forces? I would hope that something like this would already been decided. It is a major part of the game. The estimation of realism in a fantastic universe that pits these steel behemoths against each other.

Edited by Colonel Bogey, 09 February 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Vertous]

If the side torso is destroyed the arm should lose all weapon functions but should still be attached untill blown off the mech or....... the arm switches to internal damage for the end of the match.

Edited by Vertous, 09 February 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Gasaraki]

Azkar Almsivi, on 09 February 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

They should remain attached and functioning normally. Otherwise it becomes a juicy 2 for 1 offer. Also the entire side of the mech isn't vanishing, it's becoming inoperable, however what the arm is connected to should still be intact. Also game play wise it would make simply bashing the torso the go to method for winning, except for legs if the situation requires it.

Blasting a mech practically in half sounds awesome, but unless the mech in question was getting nuked with tons of firepower I would vote no for additional limb destruction.

A side torso distruction does more than destroy the arm. If it is an Inner Sphere mech with XL engines, the mech would be destroyed. That's how the mechs work in the Battletech universe.

Edited by Gasaraki, 09 February 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Kael Tropheus]

Kinda hard to fire a weapon when its laying on the ground because the structure holding it is no longer there. Not to mention all the electronic feeds and such controlling it if by some miracle it isnt laying in the dirt.

Edited by Kael Tropheus, 09 February 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[VYCanis]

yes, i understand it stretches credulity.

to have a functioning arm, and a center torso, with a side torso considered destroyed in between. Does it make sense? not really.

but does it actually force people to actually "for realses" go for the arms when they want to disable the arms? YES
Gameplay wise, i don't see how it's a good idea to have healthy arms slough off when the attacker has not put any work toward's destroying that arm.

maybe reserve the arm blowoff for ammo explosions.

maybe add an additional level of destruction below destroyed that involves a similar amount of damage to going through the arms to finish off a side torso enough to pop the arm off.

but just, side torso armor internals zero, arm destroyed sympathetically... and sure you get something realistic and technically true to BT rules, but you end up with very fragile mechs and render direct targeting of arms a fool's errand of a tactic

[SilentObserver]

VYCanis, on 09 February 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

yes, i understand it stretches credulity.

to have a functioning arm, and a center torso, with a side torso considered destroyed in between. Does it make sense? not really.

but does it actually force people to actually "for realses" go for the arms when they want to disable the arms? YES
Gameplay wise, i don't see how it's a good idea to have healthy arms slough off when the attacker has not put any work toward's destroying that arm.

maybe reserve the arm blowoff for ammo explosions.

maybe add an additional level of destruction below destroyed that involves a similar amount of damage to going through the arms to finish off a side torso enough to pop the arm off.

but just, side torso armor internals zero, arm destroyed sympathetically... and sure you get something realistic and technically true to BT rules, but you end up with very fragile mechs and render direct targeting of arms a fool's errand of a tactic

Which is why a firing cone (or weapons convergence) should be used instead of pin point FPS style targeting. Because it eliminates almost all of those issues.

[renegade mitchell]

I voted for No, weapons should still function FULLY on the arm if the same side side torso is destroyed (MW4).

Also, what anyone failed to mention in MW4, you core a right or left torso, take another shot, mech is dead. How will MWO implement this? I know a bit off topic here, but if a right or left torso is cored, does the next shot take out a mech or does the arm fall off?

[CobraFive]

Renegade Mitchell, on 09 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I voted for No, weapons should still function FULLY on the arm if the same side side torso is destroyed (MW4).

Also, what anyone failed to mention in MW4, you core a right or left torso, take another shot, mech is dead. How will MWO implement this? I know a bit off topic here, but if a right or left torso is cored, does the next shot take out a mech or does the arm fall off?

In tabletop (And this, I feel, is a valid case to implement tabletop rules) the damage was just transferred to the center torso if a destroyed side torso took damage.