205 replies to this topic

[VYCanis]

you can see an example early on in this vid when the mech suit bashes the barricade down within the first couple seconds of the vid. can also be seen used against an another powersuit and missing at the 2:34 mark. at 7:30 you can see a stomp kick. best part is at the 3 minute 15 second mark where the epa starts wailing on a smaller powersuit



I don't get at all how something like that can be construed as anime-ish

also happens in this video

Edited by VYCanis, 21 December 2011 - 10:51 AM.

[Dihm]

Well, according to this, melee is in in some form, at least post-launch.

Quote

Players will sometimes jockey for the best positions, have to deal with an unfriendly environment, and even close to melee range. Unfortunately, melee has not been featured much in older, digital incarnations of the game, but Piranha plans on changing that. While details were sparse, the developers let us know that there would be a specific planet in MechWarrior that demands melee combat as a primary means for destruction. We're wondering whether this means that the planet has an atmosphere which does not allow for the use of ranged weapons or that the match simply has rules that forbid them. For now, the developers' lips are sealed about this post-launch feature.

[Helmer]

No charge vote?

[Foxfire]

roh, on 03 November 2011 - 07:58 AM, said:

They already stated that melee will not be in release. And as that is something a game should really be built to support from the ground up it would surprise me if it ever goes in MWO without being accompanied by a huge engine update or something down the road a long ways.

Well, they arn't building an engine from the ground up and the engine that they are using has support for melee. So that won't be an issue. The big issue will be making it look organic and actually be fun to play.

[Scarlett Avignon]

A good way to handle physical combat might be to incorporate it as a mini cut-scene game. When two mechs get within a certain distance of each other, either can elect to initiate physical combat. When one does both pilots play out some type of fast game of chance (perhaps 'evens or odds') which decides what mini realtime cut-scene plays out. The scene plays out while both pilots view the scene from a third-person perspective. Both mechs take the appropriate damage and they regain control of their mechs after the animations finish.

There is a built in penalty, in that both mechs lose control for a few seconds (this could even be used as a tactic to deny the enemy control of a mech at critical moments.)

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 21 December 2011 - 02:44 PM.

[Damocles]

Oh man I cannot wait to ambush a Drac Hunchback in a built up city with a pair of Hatchetman 3F's

Chop Chop!

[CeeKay Boques]

Helmer, on 21 December 2011 - 02:00 PM, said:

No charge vote?

Why waste a vote on something that is just running forward with your shoulder dipped? New stuff man! New stuff! Punching kicking, Charge is kind of given as long as there is collision physics.

Franklen Avignon, on 21 December 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

A good way to handle physical combat might be to incorporate it as a mini cut-scene game. When two mechs get within a certain distance of each other, either can elect to initiate physical combat. When one does both pilots play out some type of fast game of chance (perhaps 'evens or odds') which decides what mini realtime cut-scene plays out. The scene plays out while both pilots view the scene from a third-person perspective. Both mechs take the appropriate damage and they regain control of their mechs after the animations finish.

There is a built in penalty, in that both mechs lose control for a few seconds (this could even be used as a tactic to deny the enemy control of a mech at critical moments.)

I don't want to be negative, but I dislike everything about this. Take away my contol of the mech? 22 other people watching a cut scene? Random dice from a mini game?

In my mind, I can see what you're going for, and I too, drool at thought of watching a slow motion fist go through a windshield. But in the middle of a pvp game? No way!

[Scarlett Avignon]

Technoviking, on 21 December 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

I don't want to be negative, but I dislike everything about this. Take away my contol of the mech? 22 other people watching a cut scene? Random dice from a mini game?

In my mind, I can see what you're going for, and I too, drool at thought of watching a slow motion fist go through a windshield. But in the middle of a pvp game? No way!

I think you misunderstood. By 'mini-cutscene' i mean simply that it's a fixed animation, based on the outcome of the game I suggested. That will allow the physical combat to appear organic, and not like two elementary school girls slap-fighting each other. I was suggesting it be able to be viewed by the two participants (only) from the third-person because frankly, viewing physical combat from the cockpit would be awkward. I don't mean that it should interrupt any one else's combat at all.

Regarding you losing control of your mech, I'm sorry, but if a 100 ton Atlas decides it's going to punch you, I think it would draw all of your attention.

As far as the 'random' factor I suggested, it was that, merely a suggestion. I'd HOPE there would be other factors to add into the equation, though. Such as piloting skills that can be applied to close combat that would affect the outcome.

Hope that clarifies my ideas a bit.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 21 December 2011 - 03:16 PM.

[VYCanis]

anyone here ever play chronicles of riddick?

they did the transition between shooting and melee damn well IMO and in a sort of subtle manner

As soon as you had a melee weapon, or fists selected and were inside a certain distance from an opponent your view would autotrack that opponent and your movement controls would now move you relative to that opponent. However now that you were locked into brawling with that opponent you had to properly chose and time your attacks and blocks. The sort of attacks you had available depended on what movement keys you were holding, and what your timing on your attacks was.

While yes, both fighters have autoaim on each other inside of a certain range, it did suceed in making the fights feel so much more natural and personal as both combatants stare at each other and trade insults as they circle each other.

not saying melee should necessarily be like that. but the goal really should be to make it feel like there is weight and proper movements and not the usual shenanigans where melee attacks are threated as 0 range bullets

[Tannhauser Gate]

Might want to check this out. Good or bad, seems melee in MWO has some very strong evidense. This article was posted Dec.21 The whole article is VERY revealing.

"Players will sometimes jockey for the best positions, have to deal with an unfriendly environment, and even close to melee range. Unfortunately, melee has not been featured much in older, digital incarnations of the game, but Piranha plans on changing that. While details were sparse, the developers let us know that there would be a specific planet in MechWarrior that demands melee combat as a primary means for destruction. We're wondering whether this means that the planet has an atmosphere which does not allow for the use of ranged weapons or that the match simply has rules that forbid them. For now, the developers' lips are sealed about this post-launch feature."
http://massively.joy...ine/1#c35201925

Edited by lakedaemon, 21 December 2011 - 03:37 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Franklen Avignon, on 21 December 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood. By 'mini-cutscene' i mean simply that it's a fixed animation, based on the outcome of the game I suggested. That will allow the physical combat to appear organic, and not like two elementary school girls slap-fighting each other. I was suggesting it be able to be viewed by the two participants (only) from the third-person because frankly, viewing physical combat from the cockpit would be awkward. I don't mean that it should interrupt any one else's combat at all.

Oh I see... hmmm... well, I'd like to stay in the first person. I guess you're right, how many different punches can we do? I would expect to only have a singluar fist move, and a single kick move. My mech hand either moves up or down, or back to front. It would be difficult to not make it look silly and look fluid. When does it calculate? The moment that it hits? Or the moment i choose the move? Does the speed of my punch matter? What if in my swing I hit a building first, does that slow the power? Can I Wing-Chun block that punch? Dangerous territory. I can see where a cut-scene would resolve that, but it would be immersion breaking in the pit, while believeable in the large scheme.

I'd honestly like to see a shift button. Then, when shift is pressed, my stick controls the limb. I shove my stick forward, arm goes forward. I pull my stick back, arm goes back. I hit the "kick shift button" my leg goes out. Now, If I don't bring that stick back, guess who's toppling....

Quote

Regarding you losing control of your mech, I'm sorry, but if a 100 ton Atlas decides it's going to punch you, I think it would draw all of your attention.

Yes, but having my mech do things I don't control is also bad.

[Foxfire]

Interesting. If they are to the point that they are saying that they will have a melee only planet.. that is promising.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Technoviking, on 21 December 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

Oh I see... hmmm... well, I'd like to stay in the first person. I guess you're right, how many different punches can we do? I would expect to only have a singluar fist move, and a single kick move. My mech hand either moves up or down, or back to front. It would be difficult to not make it look silly and look fluid. When does it calculate? The moment that it hits? Or the moment i choose the move? Does the speed of my punch matter? What if in my swing I hit a building first, does that slow the power? Can I Wing-Chun block that punch? Dangerous territory. I can see where a cut-scene would resolve that, but it would be immersion breaking in the pit, while believeable in the large scheme.

I'd honestly like to see a shift button. Then, when shift is pressed, my stick controls the limb. I shove my stick forward, arm goes forward. I pull my stick back, arm goes back. I hit the "kick shift button" my leg goes out. Now, If I don't bring that stick back, guess who's toppling....

I concede there are tons of problems with the format I described, but like I said, it seems the only way to make combat seem fluid. The easy answer to, "I want to stay in the cockpit." is to have an option in setting for you to stay in the cockpit during these actions.

In regards to your issue with losing control of your mech, I don't think these 'mini-scenes' should be more than 2-3 seconds long, so I don't think it'd be too bad.

Personally, I'd love to have full control of the limbs, too, but we don't have neurohelmets.

Yet.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 21 December 2011 - 05:48 PM.

[Karyudo ds]

Dihm, on 21 December 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

Well, according to this, melee is in in some form, at least post-launch.

A specific planet? Woah. Wonder what that could be. I mean the one where most of the melee gear was popularized from happened to have enclosed arenas and the like. Looks like intent to include Solaris, though melee was mentioned in the FAQ as possible, just not yet finalized.

Franklen Avignon, on 21 December 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

I concede there are tons of problems with the format I described, but like I said, it seems the only way to make combat seem fluid. The easy answer to, "I want to stay in the cockpit." is to have an option in setting for you to stay in the cockpit during these actions.

In regards to your issue with losing control of your mech, I don't think these 'mini-scenes' should be more than 2-3 seconds long, so I don't think it'd be too bad.

In Halo Reach and BF3 this is fluid (BF3 is first person only too) but this is largely because at the end of it one player is dead and the other can go about their business. In Battletech rules melee only did some damage and could be combined with shooting. There wasn't any blocking either and while you don't have to interpret rules literally they do imply it as a clumsy last-ditch method to putting some MORE hurt on a target.

I mean if I have you punch you ten times to take you down we're (by your math) looking at a minimum of 30's of just watching animation. Nice as it may be we just got swarmed with LRM fire because we couldn't get much else done. That's one reason I don't see that as being fluid for a game like this, melee was a weapon, not an end-all. So If you're going to see this animation, you should see it many times. This is why to me a first person limb flailing seems more accurate. My mech throws a punch at yours and we go about our day. That 2-3 second animation might make sense if I were hitting with everything I've got but I would think of it as a normal attack anyway.

Far as third person goes I don't see it as needed. We don't have helmets but with good design I do believe they can make it obvious you're kicking and with which leg. Though I would imagine some functions of melee like picking which leg, would be automatic based on your current state of animation to appear natural.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Karyudo-ds, on 22 December 2011 - 08:33 AM, said:

In Halo Reach and BF3 this is fluid (BF3 is first person only too) but this is largely because at the end of it one player is dead and the other can go about their business. In Battletech rules melee only did some damage and could be combined with shooting. There wasn't any blocking either and while you don't have to interpret rules literally they do imply it as a clumsy last-ditch method to putting some MORE hurt on a target.

I mean if I have you punch you ten times to take you down we're (by your math) looking at a minimum of 30's of just watching animation. Nice as it may be we just got swarmed with LRM fire because we couldn't get much else done. That's one reason I don't see that as being fluid for a game like this, melee was a weapon, not an end-all. So If you're going to see this animation, you should see it many times. This is why to me a first person limb flailing seems more accurate. My mech throws a punch at yours and we go about our day. That 2-3 second animation might make sense if I were hitting with everything I've got but I would think of it as a normal attack anyway.

Far as third person goes I don't see it as needed. We don't have helmets but with good design I do believe they can make it obvious you're kicking and with which leg. Though I would imagine some functions of melee like picking which leg, would be automatic based on your current state of animation to appear natural.

Well, if the two combatants in my scenario want to keep duking it out for some reason, they that is their choice.

The point of my suggestion is to keep melee as a last-ditch thing. If you make melee too powerful, you'll see it turn into the preferred damage dealing method. This is obviously not the spirit of the game (except apparently on one map for some reason) so having them be stuck in a 2-3 second animation while performing a melee attack (and concequently open to ranged attacks) will discourage over-use of melee.

As far as you saying the third-person view isn't needed, no, of course it isn't, but it would be a better view of the action than from your cockpit.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 22 December 2011 - 08:52 AM.

[Dihm]

Franklen Avignon, on 22 December 2011 - 08:51 AM, said:

The point of my suggestion is to keep melee as a last-ditch thing. If you make melee too powerful, you'll see it turn into the preferred damage dealing method.

As far as you saying the third-person view isn't needed, no, of course it isn't, but it would be a better view of the action than from your cockpit.

You SHOULD fear getting punched and kicked. It'd be pretty stupid to face-hug another mech. Fear of getting punched in the cockpit would make people not play in silly ways, like hugging the front of an assault with a lighter mech. It is a deterrent to that behavior, since with punches you're more likely to hit the cockpit, and kicking gives the change of knocking your opponent down (and yourself). This will keep people at a more reasonable range from each other. It would never become the preferred method of dealing damage, since the trade-off is that you have to get really dang close, and get chewed up in the process.

As far as the perspective, it should never shift out of 1st person. I'm really glad PGI is not putting in a 3rd person camera, hate that in sims.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Dihm, on 22 December 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

You SHOULD fear getting punched and kicked. It'd be pretty stupid to face-hug another mech. Fear of getting punched in the cockpit would make people not play in silly ways, like hugging the front of an assault with a lighter mech. It is a deterrent to that behavior, since with punches you're more likely to hit the cockpit, and kicking gives the change of knocking your opponent down (and yourself). This will keep people at a more reasonable range from each other. It would never become the preferred method of dealing damage, since the trade-off is that you have to get really dang close, and get chewed up in the process.

As far as the perspective, it should never shift out of 1st person. I'm really glad PGI is not putting in a 3rd person camera, hate that in sims.

PGI has never claimed this will be a sim. Actually, they've specifically stated it WON'T be a sim. Expect third-person views in some situations.

Regarding dissuading people from performing melee too much.

Have you ever played an online game? If people find there is even a SLIGHT advantage to one form of attack, they will min-max the **** out of it. That's why I'm hoping PGI comes up with a good solution to omnitechnology, because I don't look forward to the quad-Ultra Autocannon 20 Dire Wolves I expect to see running around if they leave it completely canon :/

[Dihm]

They've stated that there won't be 3rd person control. We're locked in the cockpit.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Dihm, on 22 December 2011 - 09:10 AM, said:

They've stated that there won't be 3rd person control. We're locked in the cockpit.

Well, melee is going to be interesting with no depth perception, neurohelmet, or view of your limbs. Guess we'll all be stuck as flailing school-girls.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Since the article mentioned earlier states that there will be a planet (most likely Solaris VII) that demands melee combat as a primary means of destruction, AND the Dev's say they're trying to keep the game as canonical as possible...

THEN I'd say we can expect the Hatchetman and Axman to use their melee weapons.

Punching would destroy your arm actuators and weapons, but waiting for your arm weapons to be destroyed before punching would mean your arm is already busted now so you can't punch. Kicking would be hilarious because it would result in Mechs falling all the time, so i doubt they'd put that in.

Most people don't think of what happens to things as you scale-up their size. A die-cast model Boeing 747 made of aluminum at 1:1000 scale can by shaken up and down at 50 miles per hour without seriously deforming the wings, but a full-size model 747 made of solid aluminum being shaken up and down at 50 miles per hour would have it's wings tear themselves right off. A person can punch another person without serious injury, but a person standing 100' high made of typical flesh and bone would completely destroy their arm if they punched someone else their size.