27 replies to this topic

[Grotonomus]

So any one have any news on the Unseen, I feel it isn't BT w/o them. I need to roll in my Overheating Marauder circa 3025

[SquareSphere]

FAQ says stay tuned. The PC gamer article says HG was never an issues with unseens. So i'm pretty hopeful

[Paladin1]

I hope we get them, but I'm pretty pessimistic about our chances at this point. Not that I wouldn't invade HG's corporate HQ myself if it meant we could get them back, but I don't see it happening.

But by all means, please prove me wrong. I seriously won't hold it against you.

[T S Hawk]

SquareSphere, on 01 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

FAQ says stay tuned. The PC gamer article says HG was never an issues with unseens. So i'm pretty hopeful

If that company had no issues with unseens then why were there issues with them? Mind you I like some of the reseens but there are other reseens that need to be redone if that is the case

[LordKelvin]

SquareSphere, on 01 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

FAQ says stay tuned. The PC gamer article says HG was never an issues with unseens. So i'm pretty hopeful

Actually, the PC Gamer article just said that HG wasn't the cause of the silence for the past two years; remember, the Reseen 'Mechs were pulled from circulation because of them as well, even though they were extensively redesigned.

Color me pessimistic, but I would not blame Piranha for not including the Unseen, given the legal issues. I would be sad, but I would understand why.

[Thorn Hallis]

I have absolutley no clue about the legal situation concerning the unseens. But one thing I always read about 'em is that one is not allowded to make money with them. So wouldn't it be possible for the devolopers to offer them as free DLC once the game is released?

[Stinger]

What is the story with unseen and reseen? I have read several contradicting articles:

http://www.mektek.net/index.php?p=4

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reseen

It sounds like the non-macross unseens became reseen, but then the mektek article says that all the mechs are unseen. Anyone know any more on this?

[ice trey]

To be frank, at this point, I just want to be rid of the Unseen.

With all this legal tip-toeing, I just don't feel like it's worth it. Redraw them, Ignore them, make a new batch of 3025ers that fill the same roles... whatever. The unseen are a crutch for the franchise at this point. They've been out of the franchise for over 15 years. Battletech has proven that it can stand on it's own. It does not need to go back - there's not enough people left that remember them being a part of the franchise, and even fewer still that would refuse to play without them. I hardly think that using a bunch of japanese robot designs from the early 1980s are going to boost the games' popularity by a number significant enough to be worth the legal fees. Not by a long shot.

While I admit that there's a whole missing in the franchise without the unseen, it's not because of the art, it's because we don't have 3025-exclusive 20-tonners, we don't have a true LRM missileboat, We don't have a 45 ton striker that brings a brace of lasers and machine guns to the field, We don't have durable heavy 'mechs made with twin PPCs for dishing out the hurt... What hurts the game is not the missing art, but gaps in roles that have yet to be filled - mechs that are so common that every faction produces them and has their own variant. That's why the Marauder, Archer, and Shadowhawk were so sought after - you could use them in any army, unlike a Zeus or a Panther. This made the unseen very much like the 3050 Omnimechs - every faction uses them, just some use certain ones more than others.

Edited by ice trey, 06 November 2011 - 09:35 PM.

[Lima Zulu]

Quote

They've been out of the franchise for over 15 years. Battletech has proven that it can stand on it's own. It does not need to go back - there's not enough people left that remember them being a part of the franchise

Actually, they haven't been out. Many of Unseen mechs are quite popular: marauder, rifleman, shadowhak and warhammer are mentioned in almost every novel, sourcebook and scenariopack, and even used in MW4 mech packs. I'm not saying, that's all lost without'em, but if devs would decide to remove in completely, it would be quite a loss.

In other hand, there are reseen designs for most popular unseen mechs. Well, they are quite ugly (even compared to old japanese designes) and look unfamiliar for old fans, but it's better then nothing. But there is a third way - we all have seen warhammer in 2009 video, but it's neither exactly old unseen design, nor reseen, and it looks nice.

[T S Hawk]

LordKelvin, on 01 November 2011 - 09:24 PM, said:

Actually, the PC Gamer article just said that HG wasn't the cause of the silence for the past two years; remember, the Reseen 'Mechs were pulled from circulation because of them as well, even though they were extensively redesigned.

Color me pessimistic, but I would not blame Piranha for not including the Unseen, given the legal issues. I would be sad, but I would understand why.

I don't know where you are getting your facts about the unseens and reseens but the reseens haven't been removed they are still being made and sold.

Lima Zulu, on 06 November 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

Actually, they haven't been out. Many of Unseen mechs are quite popular: marauder, rifleman, shadowhak and warhammer are mentioned in almost every novel, sourcebook and scenariopack, and even used in MW4 mech packs. I'm not saying, that's all lost without'em, but if devs would decide to remove in completely, it would be quite a loss.

In other hand, there are reseen designs for most popular unseen mechs. Well, they are quite ugly (even compared to old japanese designes) and look unfamiliar for old fans, but it's better then nothing. But there is a third way - we all have seen warhammer in 2009 video, but it's neither exactly old unseen design, nor reseen, and it looks nice.

can you shoot me a link for those mech packs because I read that they were not in the mech packs for MW4 and a link for the 09 Video featuring the Warhammer please.

@Ice Trey dude I know where you are coming from but as a long time player of this game they are part of it. And many of the fans of the boad games use the unseen/reseen mechs. It is hard not to play without having one faction using them in some capacity. And one of the things I love about this game especially the table top is the fact that there are so many different mechs well especially for the timeline that they have as of now but heard a rumor that it might be changing and revamping from the Dark Age because of Wizkids ***** up?

[empath]

*sigh* At this point the Unseen aren't even a 'crutch' to the I/P, they're the gimpy leg.

As much as I love my ol' Crud, I agree they need to just retcon the things out and replace their roles with other original-art 'Mechs that they've got the licensing to use.

[Lima Zulu]

T.S. Hawk, on 07 November 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

can you shoot me a link for those mech packs because I read that they were not in the mech packs for MW4 and a link for the 09 Video featuring the Warhammer please.

Well, at http://www.mektek.net/ you can find latest version of MW4 Mercenaries, but It might be that unseen mechs were added after Mercs became free, so it wasn't violation already.
- 2009 video with Warhammer and Atlas.

Edited by Lima Zulu, 07 November 2011 - 01:27 AM.

[Captain Hat]

I, personally, prefer the Reseen models in most cases anyway.

I mean, I wasn't really a fan of the original designs, but I think the new Rifleman and Marauder specifically are two of the best-looking 'mechs in CBT. I have one of each, and a Reseen Warhammer to boot.

[Lima Zulu]

Captain Hat, on 07 November 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

new Rifleman and Marauder specifically are two of the best-looking 'mechs in CBT. I have one of each, and a Reseen Warhammer to boot.

Well, IMO new Rifleman is pretty close to orginal Macross design, even new marauder is somewhat cool while VERY different to "egg with legs and arms" but new warhammer is completely fail compared to Macross tomahawk. And of course all light and medium mechs with fighter parts instead chests should be reseen anyway. So-called "Land-Air mechs" are a pathetic try to explain, why the hell some mechs are made of airplane parts.

Edited by Lima Zulu, 07 November 2011 - 02:29 AM.

[SwordofLight]

There are two basic problems with getting rid of the Unseens.

One: Me. Or, more precisely, folks like me who started their entire tabletop experience with the Battletech boxed set. Getting rid of my mechs would be like the estate of J. R. R. Tolkien suing Warhammer 40k for using orcs. I've got a buddy who has an issue with the orcs in the new 40k fps having the wrong accent! Imagine if they were deleted entirely from 40k? So too is it with me and the Unseen. I hate the new artwork for the T-bolt, because its not a T-bolt. I know what a T-bolt looks like, I saw it in the Technical Readout. I cant unsee it, for good or for bad, like Jar Jar Binks, there will always be some neurons that hold the original information. (I did try killing the brain cells that held Jar Jar Binks, but alcohol wasnt selective enough, and all I managed to do was forget 4th grade, the use of my 6th finger, and the names of the characters in Lost)

Two: The Macross designs were cool. As sucky as almost every single solitary thing in Evangelian Neon Genesis was, my friends who like it had a point: the mecha battles were cool. The copywritten proprietary sweat off the brain of some mad Japanese animator were just better than anything else FASA, et al, could come up with.

I hale from the days before The Unseen - when they were cannon - and I'm not letting them go without a lot of pointless ********.

-Don

Edited by Sword_of_Light, 07 November 2011 - 06:08 AM.

[Arctic Fox]

It should be noted that the Unseen designs are still canon, the 'Mechs still looks like they used to in-universe and it's just we that can't seem them in the real world. The Project Phoenix 'Mechs aren't retcons but redesigns both in-universe and out of it, which is part of the problem of using them in a pre-FedCom Civil War setting.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 07 November 2011 - 06:13 AM.

[Lima Zulu]

Quote

I've got a buddy who has an issue with the orcs in the new 40k fps having the wrong accent!

No doubt, it's about WH40K: Spacemarine. And yeah, orc voices are too intelligent - imagine, they can even say "Spacemarine"!

[Souske Sagara]

The legal issues with the Unseen to my understanding are that the rights were originally leased from the Japanese IP holders (who are now a part of the legion known as Bandai) by FASA and not their US distributers of the time (Harmony Gold). Legally, use of the unseen images in the US were at the time the pervue of HG USA and as such FASA had failed to aquire the rights properly. Currently, however the properties are owned by Bandai by and large, but its kinda fuzzy.

The fuzzy part begins and ends with how the images were used by HG. Back in the day before the phrase 'anime' was even used outside its home nation of France (and there were few if any Japanese companies that could afford to risk money bringing an IP to America), the only realistic way for a Japanese IP to make it to America (a huge market) was if a third party company such as Sandy Frank or HG USA bought the distribution rights, translated, and localized the property often with mixed results.

You can see the good and bad of this with Robotech vs. Macross (the good) and Battle of The Planets vs. Science Ninja Team Gatchaman (the bad, very very bad). As it stands these companies are allowed to hold onto the rights of the reworked properties as their own because they have been altered to essentially become new properties. Often distribution is no issue because the 'new' property is either more popular then the original (hello Gamera), neither was worth a **** and ignored by reality (looking at you Cybreaker), or the rights are returned to the original property holder, allowing the original work to come to the states and abroad (basically every other iteration of Macross, Fist of The North Star, and anything they inspired or looked vaguely like). Ocasionally though, due to an unwieldly whirlwind of tie ins and with a little original work added on top, these rights get locked up by the third party.

In this case most of the properties that the Unseen hail from (Macross, VOTOMS, MOSEPDIA Crusherr Joe, Dogrums etc.) were back in the day hammered blindly into the Robotech continuity, with original work (Southern Cross and Shadow Chronicals) piled on top like a paperweight, keeping the leased IP tied down by now being a part of an original work. In essence, because Robotech was made with a mix of lease distrubted property and original work, Harmony Gold USA maintains a claim on the previously mentioned huge list of mecha images (the Unseen) as part of Robotech only, since removing the leased material would 'collapse' the structure of Robotech (the only thing keeping HG alive) comprimising the original work (seriously, Shadow Cronicles? its like Geo Climbers season two, but only made out of ****).

This keeps MWO from using the unadulterated images without significant legal battles in suing, even though Bandai can now distribute all the IP they own that was used in the making of Robotech (hense being able to buy Macross and MOSEPEDA[however its spelled]) anywhere they want to. Likewise Sandy Frank still owns Battle of The Planets (and turner owns G-Force), but the original Gatchaman is able to be distributed by the IP holder from Japan (and is aparantly yay! [adds to cart]).

Unless they pay up for the rights from HG USA, go to court with a good legal team against HG USA, or have the head of HG USA assassinated as an example to the rest of the company/replaced by a clone made by NAIS ala Kathrine Steiner the odds of being able to use the Unseen are slim to none. This does not bar them from making minor adjustments an be made to the images to make them compliant as original work (I believe the change has to be 30% or more) like the Warhammer from the MW5 trailer and using those, though they would still end up in court with HG USA, since they have nothing else going on.

I vote for assassination and replacement myself.

[Joseph Mallan]

I would love to see the old art represented, but I realize the **** that would entail so If we get the Reseen instead of the Unseen I'll still be a happy MechWarrior... just not AS happy!

[SwordofLight]

Souske Sagara, on 07 November 2011 - 08:07 AM, said:

The legal issues .... [etc]

Souske Sagara FTW +1