60 replies to this topic

[Riptor]

LBX weapons in canon have allways been able to fire both solid rounds and shotgun like rounds.

In the computer/console games this has allways been strictly seperated (guess for balance reasons?)

So.. should they fire both in this itteration or should the ammo types stay seperated.. so that an LBX only fires shotgun like shells?

I guess if LBX could do both that would make normal ACs kinda obsolete... but on the other hand normal ACs are alot cheaper... and depending on how much indepth the ammo system will be might even have its own special ammunition types (AP or high precision ammo for example, all canon mind you)

On the other hand it would increase the hassle with weapon managment in the middle of a fight...

So what do you guys think?

[Sychodemus]

The specialized ammunition for standard ACs came about because the LB-X and Ultra-class autocannons had made the former obsolete. Given that numerous games these have different firing modes for weapons (simple as toggles), I don't see any reason why LB-X autocannons cannot (finally) be portrayed as they were always intended. Otherwise, LB-X types will be little more than extended range ACs unless they add silly dynamics like extra knockback/knockdown.

(Ugh, resisting urge to gripe about AC ranges.)

Edited by Sychodemus, 13 February 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[Hador]

Well, LBX (around 3058) and Ultras ( around 3057) for IS are still far far away anyways.

Except of course for Clans, but even those are some time out.


Edit:
Seems I missed an info: Successor States regained the ability to produce the original Ultra AC/5 in 3035

Edited by Hador, 13 February 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[wolf74]

The LB-10X and Ultra AC-5 are in production at 3035 for the I.S.

I have no problem with the LB-AC Family of weapon being able to fire both Slug and Shotgun ammo it how they worked. You just have to Pay in C-Bill and Tonnage for both types of ammo on one mech. But remember your limited on you ammo space so do you want 3 ton of slug ammo or shotgun or a Mix of the two type?

[Jaroth Corbett]

A mechwarrior configures his/her mech for his/her style of fighting so if you are a brawler (like me) you would choose the LBX for that shotgun in your face damage.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 February 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[Dlardrageth]

Don't think there's a pressing reason to disallow a XAC to use BOTH AMMO TYPES: If you decide that is what you want. Same as with missile ammo, if you got the asmmo on board, you should be able to swap out the ammo "cassette" to get the right choice. Only thing worth considering is how long it'd take (in game) to do an ammo swap. Major oversight that in past games that wasn't an option really. On the flip side, depending on the exact damage modeling we'll have to see how effective the "pellet ammo" will really be...

[Grithis]

There's no reason to prevent using both ammo types. Neither is better than the other, in the end. Concentration vs. dispersion. Just another tactical decision to make.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Might as well have both. Kinda makes normal ACs obsolete, but i suppose that is kinda the point. Either way I do not fear LBX ammunition much, the spread of the damage makes it that much harder to precision-target a 'Mech

[Mason Grimm]

I think that the LBX should be allowed.

Why? Because the technology is available during the time frame.

It provides tactical options for mechwarriors based upon desired result just like the TT version; want to punch holes? Send regular AC ammo down range. Want to go crit seeking? switch to the LBX rounds. Still, if they force you to choose one ammo type (per drop), to keep things simple, I can always go hole punching with my Twin Engines of Destruction™ PPCs and then crit seek with LBX-10 ammo rather than standard AC10 ammo.

Also...

These options would be available to everyone so balance issues are not a problem.

[Barantor]

In canon were they able to switch ammunition types on the fly or did they have to load one type, or both types but stagger rounds (one slug, one cannister, one slug, etc)?

Being able to call up different ammunition on the fly out of the magazine would be pretty interesting and give the weapon diversity, but I could see it having more chance to jam. If Missile launchers have the option for different ammunition though I don't see why the ACs couldn't.

[Dlardrageth]

Barantor, on 13 February 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

In canon were they able to switch ammunition types on the fly or did they have to load one type, or both types but stagger rounds (one slug, one cannister, one slug, etc)?

Canon doesn't help much here unfortunately. Because canon/TT is round-based, so any ammo-switching mechanics there don't likely translate well into a computer game. In a computer game that is realtime-based (no matter the actual speed scaling), you will have to allocate some time frame for ammo reload/switch. An immediate switch is both unrealistic and game-breaking.

Why the latter you ask? Well, let's assume I want to exploit the instant ammo switch. I load up one ton of pellet and one ton of slug ammo. Then, instead of waiting for the normal reload time on the ACs between rounds/bursts, I just swap ammo between shots/salvos and keep thus bypassing the reload time. Nice cheat, eh?

[Barantor]

Immediate switch isn't unrealistic, plenty of real APCs that can switch ammo and have two belt feeds from different magazines.

Reload time isn't what I am talking about here, ACs fire in bursts from everything I have read so staggering rounds in that burst is fine if the feed mechanism is set up that way ahead of time.

It is the same as the ammunition type switch in world of tanks, you still have to wait for the full reload.... so I don't see your point at all there.

I meant switch like world of tanks where we can have one shot of AP then after the normal reload time have had it set to reload HE rounds.

[MaddMaxx]

If the game does require Ammo costs, the LBX ammo is 2X the cost across all weapons. Things could get dicey to carry any amount of LBX ammo and not get to use it all during a fight.

As for loading 2 types to a single gun, one would assume 2X ammo bins (and the weight they add as well)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 February 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Mason Grimm]

MaddMaxx, on 13 February 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

If the game does require Ammo costs, the LBX ammo is 2X the cost across all weapons. Things could get dicey to carry any amount of LBX ammo and not get to use it all during a fight.

As for loading 2 types to a single gun, one would assume 2X ammo bins (and the weight they add as well)

In Tabletop plenty of my modified rides carry 1 ton Slug, 1 ton Cluster and I switch between them. If you want both types you gotta pay (tonnage) for both types. This essentially would be "two feed bins". Switching ammo types should take say... 5 seconds max...

[MaddMaxx]

Mason Grimm, on 13 February 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

In Tabletop plenty of my modified rides carry 1 ton Slug, 1 ton Cluster and I switch between them. If you want both types you gotta pay (tonnage) for both types. This essentially would be "two feed bins". Switching ammo types should take say... 5 seconds max...

My point Mason, was if we have to pay for Ammo, LBX is 2X. The 2 Bins was (+ weight) a hopeful given. Imagine taking 1T of each and losing the LBX ammo bin quickly. Ouch on the pocket book.

I suspect we won't have either, extra Bin weight added or extra costs for differing ammo, but one can always hope right?

[Gunmage]

Of course yes. Also, normal AC should have access to special ammo (or is it not available in this timeframe?)

[Naughtyboy]

found this on sarna.net about precision ammo ...

Precisionammunition can be used in standard autocannons and their lighter cousins. Scientists from the Federated Suns managed to modify autocannon ammunition to accommodate a gyrojet shell that can correct its course in mid-flight, but the course correction system increased the mass of each shell. Debuting in 3062 precision ammo soon found its way into the armies of other nations.

Edited by Naughtyboy, 13 February 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[EDMW CSN]

The problem is that the "Ace in the hole" or "Trump card" AC ammo like AP (able to cause instant critical hits) and Precision (essentially AC shells that can auto home to whatever you are aiming at the cross hair) come in much later.

Unless Piranha takes liberty of the time line, ACs will be badly outclassed by LB and ultra variants at the Clan Invasion Era. Thankfully though, there is only the UAC-5 and LB-10x during 3049, so the AC-20 still retains it's throne. For now.

[Sug]

Barantor, on 13 February 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

In canon were they able to switch ammunition types on the fly or did they have to load one type, or both types but stagger rounds (one slug, one cannister, one slug, etc)?

Not sure how the TT rules apply but the novels are kinda contradictory.

In Binding Force p.246 Bartlett switches from Slugs to Shot on the fly during a fight.

In Lost Destiny p.138 Phelan fires shots of slugs into the air to get down to his cluster loads.

Edited by Sug, 13 February 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Barantor]

Sug, on 13 February 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Not sure how the TT rules apply but the novels are kinda contradictory.

In Binding Force p.246 Bartlett switches from Slugs to Shot on the fly during a fight.

In Lost Destiny p.138 Phelan fires shots of slugs into the air to get down to his cluster loads.

First one sounds like two magazines to be able to draw from for rounds whereas the second seems like one magazine was top loaded with slugs and then the 'bottom' of the magazine was filled with cluster/cannister rounds.