100 replies to this topic

[Sug]

I'm just impressed that the OP knows the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence by heart. That's a whole lotta words.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Seth Deathstalker, on 13 February 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Maybe I shouldn't reply to this topic hence I would become a suspect....
But what the heck??
I will not be visiting the USA anytime soon. Not because I am a terrorist - but as a normal European I would stand out in almost any place or crowd in the US. "If you are not one of us then you are one of them." Or how can one interpret the message? Ok, terrorists are a real pain. But... Thank you very much. But no visit.

uh, Seth, that is the same "us vs them" attitude that youre accusing americans as having. Youre taking a politician's rhetoric and assuming all americans think that way. Im american and Ive traveled a good deal even to places that are anti-american in the media. I never felt in danger or unsafe. A few people were up for heated political debates but, in the real world, 99.9% of the people are all the same...just worried about jobs, their kids futures, living peacefully and are just as disgusted at their governments and the media's hate mongering as everyone else. Many only know what the media tells thems which is often government controlled. Even then, they dont believe it.

If you came here you'd meet alot of people who'd roll their eyes at our politician's rhetoric, even apologize for it, and then invite you over for dinner.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 14 February 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Trogusaur]

Scariest part is that the new Military Commissions Act allows the government to detain all these "suspicious people" indefinitely, and without habeas corpus.

I would normally call B.S. on an article like this, but there seem to be a few too many coincidences.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 14 February 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Sug]

Good thing we have lots of open mountain ranges to set up shacks in.

[Seth Deathstalker]

I should have been more precise about my thoughts in this matter.

Coralld, on 13 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

I think your being overly paranoid Seth. Also, I believe the message was "If you are not with us on fighting terrorism, then your against us." It's not about nationality or anything like that so you are safe. Also I have met many people from all over Europe who have come here and they blend right in most of the time, even if you have an accent, no one here really cares.

Sure I am for fighting against terrorism. (The method to do so is the tricky thing. Guerilla tactics are not easy to counter.) What I meant with "..not one of us.." was rather: not one who has been approved by the powers that be (law enforcement, government). The powers who seem to be able to so easily arrest you if they think you are the bad guy or - more provocatively put - if they think you behave funny. A bit scary. Could lead to paranoia.
Ah, it is a difficult topic. And yes, there must be something done to go against terrorism.

Geist Null, on 13 February 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

blogs = IMO

not a good idea to believe everything you read on them

I stopped long ago to believe everything I see or read in the media world.

Exilyth, on 14 February 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

If this were the 60s or 70s, people would be rioting for freedom all over the place.
Also, often the terrorists are the people who blend in the best.

Anyway, all the fnords in this thread make me feel funny.

About blending in or standing out, there is that movie.... Arlington Road I think. Disturbing one. No happy ending.

Sug, on 14 February 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'm just impressed that the OP knows the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence by heart. That's a whole lotta words.

Agreed.

LakeDaemon, on 14 February 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

uh, Seth, that is the same "us vs them" attitude that youre accusing americans as having. Youre taking a politician's rhetoric and assuming all americans think that way. Im american and Ive traveled a good deal even to places that are anti-american in the media. I never felt in danger or unsafe. A few people were up for heated political debates but, in the real world, 99.9% of the people are all the same...just worried about jobs, their kids futures, living peacefully and are just as disgusted at their governments and the media's hate mongering as everyone else. Many only know what the media tells thems which is often government controlled. Even then, they dont believe it.

If you came here you'd meet alot of people who'd roll their eyes at our politician's rhetoric, even apologize for it, and then invite you over for dinner.

I did not intend to accuse all the Americans. I wanted to express that I feel weary about the way the government is able to exert its powers. See text above. Hope that clarifies a bit. And I certainly don't think all Americans think that way. I'm just not keen on being interrogated because I behave funny. Not that I think I would behave funny, mind you.
Btw, your people are more open than here in Switzerland. Mostly. Being invited to diner just after you got acquainted is cool But I belive most of your people and mine are concerned about the same everyday problems. But there is one big difference in politics. We never had only two parties to choose from. And if necessary the populace can have a direct say.

Uhm, that got a bit longish. Never expected to have such serious discussions here. But you never know.

[Azalie]

Coralld, on 13 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Also, I believe the message was "If you are not with us on fighting terrorism, then your against us."

It doesn't matter what it said. Any "if you are not with us on X then you are against us" message is utter bs. It attempts to rob people of the right to voice their own opinion on matters by making them afraid that their minority opinion will cause them to be attacked. That was what happened with the Vietnam war and it started to happen with the war in Iraq. Just because you don't support a country fighting Communism/Saddam/Terrorists/ect doesn't mean you are against that country or for the other side.

[Kaemon]

I'd like to suicide bomb that article, because it is atrocious.

[Exilyth]

Seth Deathstalker, on 14 February 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

About blending in or standing out, there is that movie.... Arlington Road I think. Disturbing one. No happy ending.

I'll put that movie on my 'to watch' list. Thanks.


On topic:


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
~Evelyn Beatrice Hall, The Friends of Voltaire, 1906, a description of Voltaire's attitude, commonly misattributed to Voltaire, the closest of his documented sentiments being "I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write." in a 1770 letter

"The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error." ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

Unfortunably, free speech does not equal free press.
To quote myself:
"All media is produced by people and therefore prone to error and subjectivity. Also, any form of media is like a filter between the reader/viewer and the truth."

That being said, I think the world would be a better place without all the hate/fearmongering.

"Freedom of speech is a guiding rule, one of the foundations of democracy, but at the same time, freedom does not imply anarchy, and the right to exercise free expression does not include the right to do unjustified harm to others." ~RAPHAEL COHEN-ALMAGOR, Speech, Media and Ethics

LakeDaemon, on 14 February 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

A few people were up for heated political debates but, in the real world, 99.9% of the people are all the same...just worried about jobs, their kids futures, living peacefully and are just as disgusted at their governments and the media's hate mongering as everyone else. Many only know what the media tells thems which is often government controlled. Even then, they dont believe it.

Also, this. Except in [land] they'll have [local dish] with their heated debate.

Edited by Exilyth, 14 February 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Aresye]

Cur, on 14 February 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

This summs it up perfectly.

The "powers that be" are getting desperate.

The push for censorsihp to stop anything but controlled media/information the last few years has been insane.

You're also a terrorist for having more than 3 days supply of food in you're house. The whole thing was designed to ensure 99% of the population could be considers a terrorist and detained without question whenever they want.

You should look into FEMA camps also. for so called shelters/aid and organisation centres in the event of terrorist attack or natural disaster, they seem to resemble prison camps quite well. camers up the ********, huge barbed wire fences designed keep people in rather than out, most buildings have no windows, and the ones that do are coverd with metal bars , oh, 90% of the FEMA centres are located directly on a train track too. heh.

fun times ahead when theres a political uprising and martial law is enacted in a last try to retain power rather than let someone like Ron Paul win and take away their control over the populace.

Why am I not surprised a person posting a Fox clip is talking about FEMA camps and martial law?

Reminds me. I've gotta go back to that concealed firearms forum I visit and mention how the UN hasn't taken control of the country yet, despite them saying it was a, "going to happen within the year," thing...4 years ago.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Aresye, on 14 February 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Why am I not surprised a person posting a Fox clip is talking about FEMA camps and martial law?

Reminds me. I've gotta go back to that concealed firearms forum I visit and mention how the UN hasn't taken control of the country yet, despite them saying it was a, "going to happen within the year," thing...4 years ago.

Just because crazy people say something, doesn't mean anything they say can't happen. You do know in the event of a catastrophe the government has already declared it illegal to have a stockpile of food, right? Meaning it's legal now, but if a disaster happens, it's illegal and they can confiscate it. So much for being prepared huh?

Forgot Katrina and firearm confiscations already? Or the LA riots? Reginald Denny vs the shop owners whose shops didn't burn?

FTR I'm a Libertarian and not a kook. In case you think they are the same, the majority of Mensa members are also Libertarian or hold compatible beliefs.

[Alaskan Viking]

The article is from Russia Today, which is a propaganda organisation, I'm not being flippant, it is literally owned and controled by the Russian government, and used to influence foreign populations, like how the USA uses Radio Free Europe, etc.

They host just about any far out there conspiracy theorist willing to say the US government caused 9/11, have constant stories about how Russian military tech is awesome, etc.

Anyone remembe rtheir coverage of the Russian invasion of Georga? "Russian peace keepers stopping the Georgian genocide...."

Edited by Alaskan Viking, 14 February 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Wraith 1]

I have my own copy of the constitution. I keep it sandwiched between my Bible and my Book Of Mormon. I am probably on sooo many lists...

[Sug]

Nick Makiaveli, on 14 February 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

You do know in the event of a catastrophe the government has already declared it illegal to have a stockpile of food, right? Meaning it's legal now, but if a disaster happens, it's illegal and they can confiscate it.

I'd like to see something real that backs up that statement. Like a provision in an actual bill. Just curious.

Also, in regards to missing fingers, the first thing that comes to my mind is Yakuza!

[Trogusaur]

Aresye, on 14 February 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Why am I not surprised a person posting a Fox clip is talking about FEMA camps and martial law?

If that's all you got out of the entire clip, is that really being objective? He was mostly talking about the streamlined system of politics known as the two-party system, and he used those as examples to back up his argument (I know, a Fox host attempting to actually use journalism?? There goes the planet). Andrew Napolitano is one of the only somewhat balanced (and sane) people on Faux "News".

Edited by Lord Trogus, 14 February 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[Sug]

That Napolitano clip totally reminds me of that episode of South Park where Cartman does the morning announcements.

He's just asking questions. Someone needs to ask these questions. If he's asking questions, who's got the answers hmmmm? The government? The News Media? Who knows he's just asking questions.

Can the government confiscate all the food in your house? What if they could? Who voted for these people?

Edited by Sug, 14 February 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Somebody needs to apply the Conspiracy Theory Detector...


General pro-tip: If it sounds like the plot of a crazy, B-grade conspiracy movie, or an over-used distopian sci-fi plot, it's time to take two big steps back, three deep breaths, and a healthy dose of salt or two.

[Trogusaur]

Sug, on 14 February 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Can the government confiscate all the food in your house? What if they could? Who voted for these people?

Good point! But who voted for them, knowing they would do that? Who would vote for them?

Edited by Lord Trogus, 14 February 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[Coralld]

Lord Trogus, on 14 February 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Good point! But who voted for them, knowing they would do that? Who would vote for them?

You would be surprised what kind of people would vote politicians like that in, in the name of "fairness."

[Trogusaur]

Coralld, on 14 February 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

You would be surprised what kind of people would vote politicians like that in, in the name of "fairness."

*Sigh. I really would like to think that people vote for our leaders for the right reasons. Unfortunately, it is far too easy for a candidate to talk one way and walk another when they win the election :/

[Ilithi Dragon]

Lord Trogus, on 14 February 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Good point! But who voted for them, knowing they would do that? Who would vote for them?

The much more critical question is the first one asked: Can the government ACTUALLY do that? Or is that just paranoid hype? The second question, and just as relevant, is IF the government can confiscate food, under what circumstances can they do so, and what are the justifications?

Because I can easily think of a couple scenarios just off-hand of people stock-piling food for themselves at the expense of the rest of the community that they could easily provide for wherein government forces would be justified in confiscating the food. Say, food stuffs looted from a local grocery store during a major crisis, that are stockpiled by two guys who refuse to share with the rest of the small town, even though the rest of the town is on the verge of starving.