25 replies to this topic

[Schrottfrosch]

Sorry for being that much uninformed - I checked Sarna.net for information on this and I came across the information that:

- Some other companies like for example "Harmony Gold" (is this really a southafrican gold digging company?) own rights to the designs of some "iconic" mechs like the marauder, the locust, the stinger, the wasp and the rifleman (just from my head as I am just reading the old grey death legion saga again )

- These designs come from about 3 different animated cartoon series

- The original corporation (FASA), that tried to do basically a Pen and Paper RPG and a tabletop game, got into quite some trouble with "copying" these mech designs


So why cant there be a Marauder in this game? Couldnt MWO just adjust the mechdesign (regarding the Marauder, you could just make it Catapult like with the big canon not on the head but on the shoulder, or something)?

An inquiring mind needs answers

[Adridos]

We could just change the design, but... They simply got those designs by a cheating of law and we don't want to give them away so easily.

[River Walker]

Schrottfrosch, on 31 August 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Sorry for being that much uninformed - I checked Sarna.net for information on this and I came across the information that:

- Some other companies like for example "Harmony Gold" (is this really a southafrican gold digging company?) own rights to the designs of some "iconic" mechs like the marauder, the locust, the stinger, the wasp and the rifleman (just from my head as I am just reading the old grey death legion saga again )

- These designs come from about 3 different animated cartoon series

- The original corporation (FASA), that tried to do basically a Pen and Paper RPG and a tabletop game, got into quite some trouble with "copying" these mech designs


So why cant there be a Marauder in this game? Couldnt MWO just adjust the mechdesign (regarding the Marauder, you could just make it Catapult like with the big canon not on the head but on the shoulder, or something)?

An inquiring mind needs answers

Back when Battletech was Battledroids, the original 'Droids ('Mechs) were based on well-known images taken from several different anime series. During the '90s, FASA became embroiled in a lawsuit with Playmates and Harmony Gold over the distribution rights of these images within the United States. The original Playmates/ Harmony Gold lawsuit seems to have only covered Macross/Robotech mecha, but when the dust settled, FASA dropped all other borrowed/licensed images as well and went on to use only their own original 'Mech images. Below is a table of the Unseen 'Mechs, their roots, and other systems that I have found them used in, if any. Three aerospace fighters, one vehicle, and a dropship have become somewhat of an enigma to me. Further explanation follows the table. Tons Battletech Name Origin - Name Other Systems (Name) Misc. Info 20 Locust Crusher Joe -
Ostall 20 Stinger Macross -
VF-1A 20 Wasp Macross -
VF-1S Revell Robotech Defenders (Vexar) 25 Locust IIc Crusher Joe -
Ostall 30 Stinger LAM Macross -
VF-1A 30 Wasp LAM Macross -
VF-1S Revell Robotech Defenders (Vexar) 30 Valkyrie Macross -
VF-1S 35 Ostscout Macross -
Regult Scout Pod Heavily modified, but torso and legs are very similar. 40 Griffin IIc Dougram -
H8 Roundfacer 45 Phoenix Hawk Macross -
Super VF-1S 45 Shadow Hawk IIc Dougram -
Dougram Combat Armor 50 Phoenix Hawk LAM Macross -
Super VF-1S 55 Griffin Dougram -
H8 Roundfacer Revell Robotech Defenders (Thoren) Also packaged in a Revell kit, Armored Combat Team. Comes with several vehicles. 55 Scorpion Dougram -
F35C
Blizzard Gunner Revell Robotech Defenders ( ? ) Packaged in a Revell model kit, Assault Squad. No name given… comes with an eight-wheeled ATV. 55 Shadow Hawk Dougram -
Dougram Combat Armor Revell Robotech Defenders (Zoltek) 55 Wolverine Dougram -
T10B,C Blockhead Revell Robotech Defenders (Talos) 60 Ostroc Macross -
Regult (Heavy or Light) Missile Pod Heavily modified, but torso and legs are very similar. 60 Ostsol Macross -
Regult Tactical
Battle Pod Heavily modified, but torso and legs are very similar. 60 Rifleman Macross -
Defender Robotech, Exo Squad
(Raidar X) Apparently the original Macross names for the Destroids weren't good enough, because the Robotech RPG (and some model kits) went with a different set of names. 65 Crusader Macross -
Armored VF-1A 65 Thunderbolt Dougram -
F4X Ironfoot Revell Robotech Defenders (Gartan) Also packaged in a Revell kit Strike Force. Comes with attack helicopter. 65 Rifleman IIc Macross -
Defender 70 Archer Macross -
Spartan Robotech, Exo Squad
(Gladiator) The name Spartan is used for the Longbow / Phalanx as well. 70 Warhammer Macross -
Tomahawk Robotech, Exo Squad
(Excaliber Mk VI) 75 Marauder Macross -
Glaug Officer's Tactical Pod Robotech, Exo Squad
(Glaug Pod),
Revell Robotech Defenders (Khyron’s Battle Pod) Pretty much the same name through all four series. How original, no? 80 Goliath Dougram -
F44A Crab Gunner Revell Robotech Defenders (Dromedin) 80 Phoenix Hawk IIc Macross -
Super VF-1S 80 Warhammer IIc Macross -
Tomahawk 85 Battlemaster Dougram -
HT128 Bigfoot Revell Robotech Defenders (Ziyon) 85 Longbow Macross -
Phalanx Robotech, Exo Squad (Spartan) 85 Marauder IIc Macross -
Glaug Officer's Tactical Pod 100 Marauder II Macross -
Glaug Officer's Tactical Pod


http://www.giovetti....btrobosuit.html

Edited by River Walker, 31 August 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

It's a lot harder than 'adjusting the design a little', because the rights-holding company can still take you to court over any perceived infringement.

Then it's up to a judge to decide if it is or is not infringement, and even winning such a case is costly.

FASA fought over these rights for years and never won them, why does everyone think it would be easy for PGI to do the same?

[Wyll]

It wouldn't be easy. But man... it would be awesome. Copyrights are only worth what someone will pay for them. Gotta wonder what Harmony Gold is holding them for, if not to sell back to the BT Universe at some time.

I wish Harmony Gold would just say "hey, for $5 million we'll release all copyrights to the unseen to the holders of the rights for Battletech". I'd put money into a Kickstarter for that for sure.

Game just isn't the same without the Warhammer, Archer, Phoenix Hawk... etc. Many of the greatest 'Mech jocks around piloted the Unseen. I mean... Jaime Wolf and Morgan Kell without their Archers? Natasha Kerensky without a Warhammer? C'mon.

[Exilyth]

The legalese version of what happened can be found here...
http://alex.kaempen....ld_v._fasa.html
http://alex.kaempen....d_v._fasa2.html

Schrottfrosch, on 31 August 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Some other companies like for example "Harmony Gold" (is this really a southafrican gold digging company?)

Afaik, Harmony Gold USA is not related to that mining company.

[pnaksone]

Wyll, on 31 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

It wouldn't be easy. But man... it would be awesome. Copyrights are only worth what someone will pay for them. Gotta wonder what Harmony Gold is holding them for, if not to sell back to the BT Universe at some time.

I wish Harmony Gold would just say "hey, for $5 million we'll release all copyrights to the unseen to the holders of the rights for Battletech". I'd put money into a Kickstarter for that for sure.

Game just isn't the same without the Warhammer, Archer, Phoenix Hawk... etc. Many of the greatest 'Mech jocks around piloted the Unseen. I mean... Jaime Wolf and Morgan Kell without their Archers? Natasha Kerensky without a Warhammer? C'mon.

Because the first third of the series Robotech was made from Super Dimensional Fortress Macross and both series still makes good money for them every year.

[Spanky180]

Sucks my favorite Mech is part of this group I hav always loved the warhammer. But when you put alot of those Mechs side by side you can see where FASA just got lazy and copy the design almost exactly. But I can always hold out hope the Warhammer will make a showing one day.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Wyll, on 31 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

It wouldn't be easy. But man... it would be awesome. Copyrights are only worth what someone will pay for them. Gotta wonder what Harmony Gold is holding them for, if not to sell back to the BT Universe at some time.

I wish Harmony Gold would just say "hey, for $5 million we'll release all copyrights to the unseen to the holders of the rights for Battletech". I'd put money into a Kickstarter for that for sure.

Game just isn't the same without the Warhammer, Archer, Phoenix Hawk... etc. Many of the greatest 'Mech jocks around piloted the Unseen. I mean... Jaime Wolf and Morgan Kell without their Archers? Natasha Kerensky without a Warhammer? C'mon.

Its not even about copy rights... Harmony Gold has the North American Distribution rights. Which they got before the US companies bought the Copy rights as I understand it.. Which causes all kinds of weirdness when it goes to court

[Lootee]

What I don't understand is why the designs done by Victor Musical Industries for the Clan Refits of the Warhammer, Marauder, Phoenix Hawk, Griffin, Shadowhawk, and Rifleman can't be used since it's new artwork commissioned for the 3055 Technical Readout.

They vaguely resemble the anime designs, but are originals in their own right. A couple of them (PHX-IIC and SHD-IIC) look nothing similar at all to the anime ones, and have nothing else in common except the name.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 September 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 September 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

What I don't understand is why the designs done by Victor Musical Industries for the Clan Refits of the Warhammer, Marauder, Phoenix Hawk, Griffin, Shadowhawk, and Rifleman can't be used since it's new artwork commissioned for the 3055 Technical Readout.

They vaguely resemble the anime designs, but are originals in their own right. A couple of them (PHX-IIC and SHD-IIC) look nothing similar at all to the anime ones, and have nothing else in common except the name.

After the hoopla with Harmony Gold, FASA apparently decided it was safer/better to purge all artwork that wasn't produced by in-house artists - thus, the loss of the Dougram designs (BattleMaster, Shadow Hawk, etc), Crusher Joe designs (Ostall, etc), and VMI designs (the IICs, Stone Rhino/"Behemoth", Bane/"Kraken", etc) in addition to the loss of the Macross designs - and FASA's successors (Topps et al) have apparently decided to adopt a similar stance.

[Dirus Nigh]

OK little history lesson. Sorry for the ramble.

Harmony gold is a media company in the U.S. They own the rights to distribute a number of japanies anime in the states. Most notibly robotech or macros. They wanted exlusive rights. At about the same time FASA baught the rights to use the images of several mecha from varios anima shows. Robotech, Crusher Joe, and gundam. Thats the pheonix hawk, locust, griffin ect.

Now japan does not give exclusive rights. So they let both companies have it. After Battletech got popular Harmony Gold threatened a law suit. Sence FASA is a small company they could not afford to fight it. So they got rid of any mechs that Harmony Gold had also. In addition they got rid of all artwork that was not created in house. Even if harmony Gold did not have similar claims. They also stopped using artwork that was made by a third party for FASA. For example the origional IIC artwork. Every thing was made in house sence then. Thats why most of the mechs look like crap.

Keep in mind Harmony Gold would most likely have lost the suit.

Years later Mechwarrior 5 was proposed. Every one hear has seen the teaser. it was awesome. A game with old school succession wars plot and combat. Not a clanner in sight. It would have been great. The game had a reseen warhammer. Harmony Gold threatened a suit saying that they own the idea for big stompy robots. In general. MW5 died. This suit would have been lost by HG. Again it was about not having enough mony to get fight the suit.

HG did this because they want to do a live action robotech movie. So they want to crush any thing that will even remotely similar to it. Of corse at this point it's like Hasbro crushing the Turbo Teen cartoon.

Iron wind metals still makes reseen minis for classic battletech. They look ok but most just dont look good.

Most of what I wrote came from stuff Ive learned reading news reports over the past few years. I tried to keep my explination as basic as a could so I didnt get half remembered specifics wrong. Also a guy who was a playtester and worked for/with FASA frequently posts on OOTS. Go there search battletech threads you will find it.

I really dont see MWO putting in unseen mechs. They will want to avoid lawyer trouble. Maybe if they get big enough down the line. But I dont think so. The dude developing the mechs now could in my opinion make new reseen designs that would capture the feel of origionals with out getting HG ire. Then again better safe than sorry.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 13 September 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[Master Kush]

"Battledroids" I can stlll remember when I first saw the artwork on the box for the table top game. It was a Warhammer. At that moment I had to have the game. I had no one to play it with, but that didn't matter. It took me two months of allowance to save up the $28.00 to buy it. If i remember right George Lucas held the rights to the word "droids" so the name was changed to Battletech. The game box I eventually got said Battletech formerly Battledroids. Not really sure if the Lucas story is true but the name changed PDQ.

Oh and I believe the actor Toby Maguire bought the rights to make a robotech live action movie.

Edited by Master Kush, 13 September 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[ShadowFighter88]

Dirus Nigh, on 13 September 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Harmony Gold threatened a suit saying that they own the idea for big stompy robots. In general. MW5 died. This suit would have been lost by HG. Again it was about not having enough mony to get fight the suit.

There's a developer blog on the main page here that says there was no lawsuit issue about the MW reboot trailer - that idea died because no publishing company wanted to back it. With how cautious publishers are these days, a mech sim was already risky. Factor in the console restrictions Microsoft imposed on the license (namely no PS3 version, though god-knows how a good Mechwarrior game could work on a console anyway) and it's chances of getting a publisher dropped through the floor. That's why it got retooled into MWO.

Frankly, HG need to either do something with the licenses or hand them off. Should be some sort of law or restriction or something that lets rights like this expire if they're not used in so many years.

[Strum Wealh]

Dirus Nigh, on 13 September 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

OK little history lesson. Sorry for the ramble.
(snip)

An admirable effort, but containing several factual errors.

For example, none of the original Unseen artwork is derived from any of the Gundam series (which is somewhat ironic, considering how the original Mobile Suit Gundam series is widely considered the progenitor of the "Real Robot"/"non Super Robot" subgenre of mecha - a subgenre which generally includes BattleTech and many other "Western style" mecha).

-----

Super Dimension Fortress Macross (produced by Studio Nue, and distinct from Harmony Gold's Robotech) originally aired on Oct. 03, 1982.
Battledroids (the precursor to BattleTech) was originally released in sometime around August of 1984 (from the court documents, linked below).
Robotech (as distinct from Macross) originally aired on March 04, 1985.
"Battledroids" became "BattleTech" sometime in the Fall of 1985 "pursuant to a settlement between FASA and LucasFilm" (from the court documents, linked below).

And all was well... until ~1994.

• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (December 05-07, 1994)
  
• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (June 19-23, 1995)
  
• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (January 22, 1996)

In December of 1991, a FASA rep apparently met with a rep from Playmates Toys to discuss production and sales of a BT-related toyline. Playmates apparently declined a license for BT-related toys, but went ahead and produced similar designs for their ExoSquad toyline.

One example is the "ExoSquad Heavy Attack E-Frame", pictured below and clearly modeled on the Mad Cat:

In response, FASA (along with Virtual World Entertainment) sued Playmates. The details of the proceedings can be read at the above-bulleted links.

And then came the issue with Harmony Gold (who, at the time, had a business relationship with Playmates):

• HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC., a corporation, and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation, and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants (June 12-13, 1996)
  
• HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC, a corporation; and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation; and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants (November 06-07, 1996)

And, well, we know what happened from there...

[pnaksone]

ShadowFighter88, on 13 September 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Frankly, HG need to either do something with the licenses or hand them off. Should be some sort of law or restriction or something that lets rights like this expire if they're not used in so many years.

Their is time limit to rights the but I believe it is 99 years as they are part owners the property. If they just had a contract for the licenses the owners could revoke that when up to be renewed.

[Riin Suul]

Dirus Nigh, on 13 September 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

OK little history lesson. Sorry for the ramble.

snip

Years later Mechwarrior 5 was proposed. Every one hear has seen the teaser. it was awesome. A game with old school succession wars plot and combat. Not a clanner in sight. It would have been great. The game had a reseen warhammer. Harmony Gold threatened a suit saying that they own the idea for big stompy robots. In general. MW5 died. This suit would have been lost by HG. Again it was about not having enough mony to get fight the suit.

HG did this because they want to do a live action robotech movie. So they want to crush any thing that will even remotely similar to it. Of corse at this point it's like Hasbro crushing the Turbo Teen cartoon.


snip

nope. PGI has repeatedly said that it WASN'T a legal issue that messed up MW5, it was a lack of available funding. I have seen MULTIPLE devs say that there was no legal challenge to the MW5 reboot

[Strum Wealh]

Riin Suul, on 14 September 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

PGI has repeatedly said that it WASN'T a legal issue that messed up MW5, it was a lack of available funding. I have seen MULTIPLE devs say that there was no legal challenge to the MW5 reboot

True... however, IGN (and others?) did apparently receive cease-and-desist letters from Harmony Gold in reference to the MechWarrior Reboot trailer in September 2009, two months after the announcement of the project.

Quote

Earlier today, IGN and its parent company were issued a cease and desist order from Harmony Gold, the co-copyright owner of the television series Robotech. The letter claims that the use of certain trademarked figures from the Robotech/Macross universe are prohibited as a result of a prior settlement that dates back to 1996.

-----

IGN contacted Smith and Tinker, the company that currently holds the license to the MechWarrior franchise for word on this situation. A spokesman for the company responded to our inquiry, stating, "We have no comment on the situation at this time."

(additional sources here, here, and here)

So, HG apparently sensed blood in the water, and even if their involvement - or the potential for their involvement - wasn't the leading cause for the demise of the MW Reboot project, it would seem that HG isn't a non-factor.

[Frisk]

The Unseen could be Reseen.

Because this is a game where you purchase the content, if PGi approached the aforementioned parties and stated they could receive royalties off the sale of their IP (intellectual property) if PGI was able to use it in the game.

If they were smart they would take PGi up on that offer, being that it would generate money as opposed to sitting in a drawer some where collecting dust and resentment.

This may result in a Warhammer costing $100, but I'd pay it.

Edited by Frisk, 14 September 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Magik0012]

Oh how I wish that could happen, Frisk. I would gladly pay a (reasonable) premium to buy individual unseen mechs.