156 replies to this topic

[Ian MacLeary]

Fresh_Meat, on 15 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Its not so much the material reward its the matter of raising the stakes a little and adding a more personal attraction to the game.

The stakes are whole planets... I fail to see how scavenging a Small Laser is 'raising the stakes'.

While it would be cool to scavenge something, I think you'd find it annoying happening to you. And as I pointed out before - probably 90% of the time, anything scavenged is just going to be sold in order to finance repairs you need or customizations you actually want. It's not going to be like MW4, where you swap weapons on a whim; customizing 'mech loadouts is expensive and rare.

I'd rather the devs put development time into making interesting environments, more 'mechs, and getting gameplay nailed down solidly than putting time into a system that would be, for the most part, not useful.

[slide]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but other MP mechwarrior games have always been a one battle, choose your mech and go kill the enemy or die trying, respawn have another go.

There is supposed to be a persistant universe (Meta verse) here on mwo. This changes how the game should be played, so why wouldn't the economics change as well. If you are part of a merc corp or a house unit you should have the backing of your unit to help you recover from losses. The devs have already said merc units will have the benefits of a planet if they can hold on to it. (lone wolves may have to be a bit different). If you can have the benefits of a larger economic background why shouldn't you have the consequences as well.

If the only options in battle are win or die trying, we'll end up with 12 on 12 assault mech matches and suicide runs and I for one will stop playing on that account alone. The devs have said they wan't the better trained and better tactics to succeed this also means you should know when to quit your losses and live to fight another day. If you can't lose anything where's the joy of winning. Besides they only said you would get your mech back, they haven't said it would be fully functional. Repairs even with a chassis could still send you broke.

[Fresh Meat]

Ian MacLeary, on 15 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

The stakes are whole planets... I fail to see how scavenging a Small Laser is 'raising the stakes'.

I mean personal stakes, and a said a little.

[autogyro]

Without permanently destroyed mechs you can't really have mech salvage. I would like to see however weapons being salvageable. But as previously mentioned customisation might be very expensive which really relegates salvage into the sellable misc loot category. I think the way the game might be set up, salvage won't really find a place within the game.

[Fluffinator]

autogyro, on 15 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Without permanently destroyed mechs you can't really have mech salvage. I would like to see however weapons being salvageable. But as previously mentioned customisation might be very expensive which really relegates salvage into the sellable misc loot category. I think the way the game might be set up, salvage won't really find a place within the game.

Without salvage you loose the incentive to carefully kill a mech instead of blowing it to dust
And just because the computer lets the other person have their chassis back doesn't mean the game can't also give you salvage from the battle. Just like a loot drop in any game where the mech class you were fighting controls the loot table.

[autogyro]

Fluffinator, on 15 February 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

Without salvage you loose the incentive to carefully kill a mech instead of blowing it to dust
And just because the computer lets the other person have their chassis back doesn't mean the game can't also give you salvage from the battle. Just like a loot drop in any game where the mech class you were fighting controls the loot table.

Maybe im being pessimistic but i can't help but feel allowing mechs to be salvaged, this mechanic will be exploited. You'll have people doing custom battles so they and a friend can acquire a rare and expensive mech repeatedly doing 1v1 battles until it can be salvaged. If you allow people to bypass the need to purchase im sure people will figure out ways to exploit.

[Bluemaxx]

i think that fact you'll get your mech back no matter what happens can be exploited...

Imagine if criticals are allowed in the game and they do damage to the mechs that are close by. What if a light mech suicide pilot comes racing into a heavy/assault and waits to be killed or somehow triggers their own critical. Sure they die but they soften up an enemy mech to make it easier for there team to win the day.
Games could turn into suicide runs between pilots rather than skill.....

now it's not very economically viable but it could happen

[Destin Foroda]

Honestly there is a simple way to do this. To my understanding, salvage will only be something that mercs deal with. House soldiers are just that, soldiers. As a house based unit, you won't be reaping any rewards from salvage because General I'msomerichguysson will be claiming it all and it will be going to the military that you serve. Likewise though, House based mechwarriors are probably gonna have a lot less overhead and expenses to deal with because they have the entire resource pool of a given portion of the Inner Sphere to put their machine back together.

On the other hand, Merc Corps seem to be using only the resources they have on hand, only the money they can bag from contracts. It is these men and women who salvage will be important to. If mechs are not on the line, then surely weaponry from limbs are. Lets say you're engaged in a 4 v 4 match and you're fighting a panther and manage to take his right arm off at the shoulder. There is no reason that PPC isn't something you can claim as salvage. It'll mean the other merc group has to replace the destroyed weapon out of their warchest, and now you have a PPC in storage for when one of yours gets fried.

Salvage should be an issue for Mercenaries, who will live and die based on how they handle losses in their comparatively tiny war coffer as opposed to the massive resources at the disposal of house militaries. Mechs may not be salvagable, but it's obvious that they have to be repaired and componants have to be replaced. Salvage should reflect the materials you can gain from downed mechs in a short time, but not the mechs themselves. It would be a way to pad yourself against future losses, without stripping the losing team of their mechs.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think that there will be no salvage, you just get C-bills. If you look at what they said we will get a "destroyed" mech back as a barely working chassis. All other repairs have to be paid for and you can play with a partly repaired mech. The problem is if you have a loosing streak. After a few matches you could easily end up without enough to repair it. You might end up having to buy C-bills to keep your mech going.
C-bills will be the easy way for them to deal with this matter. Just consider the logistics of trying to work out the "salvage" from say 50,000 12v12 matches every 20 minutes. It just wouldn't be logical for them to do so when they can just pay out the nominal cost. Otherwise they will have to set up a market etc.

[Beo Wulf]

Everyone is going to own the max number of mechs at some point in the game and probably soon, that is if they don't make it so that you choose the "class" you wish to be and follow an unlock tech tree as you develop which gives oyu things as you go. Salvage as far as losing your mech entirely is pretty stupid, losing anything is actually pretty stupid. I can see salvage being a small quantity of duplicated items after the match but not much more than that if at all.

If you lose your gear permanently when you go boom then sorry to to burst some of your bubbles but many of you will be creating new accounts everyday so you can start over with the noobie gear.

Even the best players lose, people who work hard to get things will usually be upset when they lose it. Upseting people is not a good formula for a lasting game. Pretty sure the devs know this.

[Bluey]

To be honest this talking is utterly pointless
You guys forgetting what we are in this game.WE ARE mech pilots we drive,we fight what we believe in,we obey orders and let our leaders does the salvage operations.Its not like oww I destroyed a timber wolf its mine now ...Wrong its Lyran Commonwealth property now and you got nothing to say about it.They will give C-bills in return go buy something fresh out of factory.

Many previous mech warrior tittles put you in boots of boss but we are pilots in this game.Maybe there could be chasis salvage between MERC vs MERC matches.Why would a standing national army strip husks for field while they have factories can construct one unadamaged equipment.

Edited by Bluey, 16 February 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[Nav]

I'm definitely in favour of implementing a salvage option.

Salvage has always been a core part of the universe and how battlefield dynamics operate?

Interesting point raised though above that salvage is something that affects Merc units in particular. In fact hasn't the level of salvage rights traditionally been a major component of the contracts agreed upon between the Merc unit and their employers?

The trick will be to get the balance right. There should be a fear of losing your Mech, but at the same time, something to allow you to continue playing the game.

Maybe getting a bit ahead of the initial MWO launch profile, but in future updates taking a planet could (should) become a more long and drawn out operation that spans a number of missions (comprising a campaign) to take over a planet.

Further to this, the ability to salvage parts and equipment and maybe even the ability to have non-combat personnel attached to you unit (Techs and so forth) to "Jury-Rig" fixes on your Mechs between missions.

Techs could also be hired according to their skills and improve over time as NPC's. Their skill levels could determine the likelihood of successful retrofit, in a tight situation.

E.G. - Your Mech loses an arm mounted PPC but your Unit wins the battle and as part of your salvage your crew have recovered an ER Large Laser. Your Chief Tech is X Skill and is successful at retrofitting the replacement, albeit it with a slight handicap in targeting or similar.

[Hayden]

I'm at peace with a "no-salvage" situation. Often units didn't even have salvage rights: I'm not sure how it works for house units, but Merc units often had such terms stipulated in their contracts: if they had salvage rights, dandy. If not, then their employers got to keep it.

Would salvage be a good thing? Probably. But do I need it to be happy with a MechWarrior game? Naw.

[William Greene]

I would love to see salvage implemented, but... it does raise the question as to HOW. cloning the mech, or parts, to give to the victor will just add up to some moron Duping the game by spawning an idle on some team he KNOWS He'll be fighting, Frying his own idle bot, and reaping the cloned basic weapons until he has enough money to do whatever he feels like. However if you remove it, What kind of BattleTech experience is this? This may be multiplayer, but unlike previous multiplayer, which generally felt like a "random firefight # 27" sort of experience, this is supposed to feel like it follows Canon in some way. It just wouldn't follow canon in a crucial way if we ditched salvage, but then it compromises the multiplayer experience. Although there could be a way to settle this with multiple theories. Either A: be able to opt in for a "True hardcore simulation" experience, in which you lose your stuff? Tough luck, you knew what you were getting into. or a more casual one where you opt that your stuff won't go up for salvage when you get toasted. Best of both worlds potentially if you can get it in the system. Players can choose to follow one way or another. But It's just a possible suggestion, there are better ones out there I'm sure.

[William Greene]

B was going to be "Do it like Steel Battalion did" but It just sounded stupid when I thought about it so I left it out.

[slide]

Bluey,
I agree if you play for a house unit then the point is probably moot. If however you play for a merc unit, then salvage is very important and it has traditionally been included as part of your company's contract, either as full or partial salvage rights.

Beo Wulf,
I know I would be pieved if I had to recreate a new account every time I lost, so a safety net is required (hey there is one, you get your mech back) but as I said previously if you play badly enough for long enough you're not going to be able to afford new weapons and repairs and you'll be looking at a new account anyway. I would suggest that if you screw up badly enough then the devs should include a reset option on your account where you go back to basics the same as at the start, with enough c-bills to buy a basic mech, but you lose all your mech xp's, modules etc but maybe keep your Avatar/pilot xp. This would give you a fresh start without losing everything but also force people to play smarter and not just get themselves killed all the time. Salvage/lots of c-bills won't change the fact that some people are going to lose alot, at least at first.

If you include salvage for the winners then after a time you will have a stock of spares/mechs and an individual loss of a mech won't affect the good player as he can just comeback in a spare mech and maybe the noob who shot his butt out of that Atlas with his Jenner can get a leg up in the game.

[Bluemaxx]

If salvage isn't implemented then any merc unit will have to make sure they maintain a supply of spare with them at all time but what happens if that unit has a very bad battle and everyone needs to be rebuilt...
if they have run out of money and not everyone can be repaired then someone is going to get burnt and that's going to run people's enjoyment of the game.
This issue must be raised in the next Q&A and i would love some clarification in this.

[slide]

Nav,

I agree there needs to be a more strategic over view with longer term goals than just winning the next battle. I know our little group has it's crosshairs locked on a home planet and some prestige to go with it.

I think there need's to be campaigns, and salvage is definitely a big part of how a campaing would work.

Love the idea if the NPC techs. "Yes master tech Guru, i will not get my Mech shot to pieces again. I know she canna tae anymore"

WG I like the idea of the hardcore mechwarrior where you take what ever you get. Adds incentive.

Edited by slide, 16 February 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[William Greene]

slide, on 16 February 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Nav,

I agree there needs to be a more strategic over view with longer term goals than just winning the next battle. I know our little group has it's crosshairs locked on a home planet and some prestige to go with it.

I think there need's to be campaigns, and salvage is definite a big part of how a campaing would work.

Love the idea if the NPC techs. "Yes master tech Guru, i will not get my Mech shot to pieces again. I know she canna tae anymore"

WG I like the idea of the hardcore mechwarrior where you take what ever you get. Adds incentive.

I try my best. If they give us an opt in opt out, well..... Then you can get a little salvage, at the risk of losing your own things, but at least you know what you're getting into. If you opt into the other? Just in it for the fun. I like the incentive, but this way keeps it balanced enough where people won't back themselves into a "Where's the reset button?!" corner. And if they do via the hardcore choice? Well, their own fault, they read it, they clicked it, their problem.

[autogyro]

Bluey, on 16 February 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

To be honest this talking is utterly pointless
You guys forgetting what we are in this game.WE ARE mech pilots we drive,we fight what we believe in,we obey orders and let our leaders does the salvage operations.Its not like oww I destroyed a timber wolf its mine now ...Wrong its Lyran Commonwealth property now and you got nothing to say about it.They will give C-bills in return go buy something fresh out of factory.

Whilst this is fair enough, even ignoring Merc battles it doesn't quite explain why as a soldier you'd have to pay for a 'Mech yourself, or the repairs. Or really get to choose which 'Mech you pilot.