156 replies to this topic

[Bloody Moon]

Overall a salvage system can be implemented, the only thing the MWO devs have to keep in check is that the amount of c-bills gained/lost per battle, this includes salvage on the gained side and repair/rebuying lost equipment on the lost side.

If every player ends up with profit over the course of lets say a thousand battles with around 30% winrate then i say the system is ok since even the least skilled players can advance towards their goals due to sheer endurance (reaching a winrate below the mentioned 30% in a teamgame when there are nearly a dozen players on each sides is nigh impossible unless someone is doin' nothing at all AND is incredibly unlucky). I also assume if the player mentioned gains profit then the the slightly below or above average players ie 45-55% winrate will gain a decent profit in those conditions and the 60-65%+ players will net a hefty profit.

Obviously the winrates above are meant to be random battle winrates, where the players are not matched according to their skills since if there will be some matchmaking rating which balances players of more or less equal skilled to the sides eventually everyone except the very high skilled top players would reach 50% winrate eventually.

If the c-bills gained/lost are atleast somewhat balanced like in the example above without having to pay for the game then we can say MWO is a free 2 play game, if not then it would be f2p in name only.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

What if as you start a new game, you the play Solaris Arena to earn c-bills & sponsored free repairs to your mech, then if you decide to fight against house/ mercs/ clans you wont receive any LP to rank up or unlock new tech because your a lone wolf. The aventual conclusion is either you will obtain salavage if you have storage space to hold it or you loose everything after multiple battles & maybe forced to join a House that supplies you a basic light mech antil you make rank.

Personally i dont mind loosing my mech because it adds to the simulation effect of realistic mechwarrior life, but the devs say you keep your loosing mech, but maybe not weapons. Perhaps weapons like Rail guns & er weapons you cant purchase which adds the extra spice in every ones life

[Cruiser]

They could do a classic MMO approach and say "The battlefield salvage has yilded this and this module and weapon" and then let the members of the winning team make a 1-100 roll for the individual salvage parts

[Polymorphyne]

1# The fact that their mech proficiency trees list different variants of mechs as unlockable (mech variants being the same mech but with different weapons fitted) means that it is unlikely we will have the usual setup of weapons being customisable.
2# The rewards for fighting a battle seems to be mech xp which then goes... well you know the story there.

This leads me to believe a few things:
1# There are no items apart from Mechs, and Modules.
2# Modules are unlocked as a pilot progresses, and are purchased with C-Bills.
3# Ditto for Mechs.
4# There is no salvage, mechs are not lost in battles, merely out of action until the battle is completed at which point it costs cbills to repair, just like world of tanks.
5# Tonnages are not an issue in mech customisation, as the weapons are locked in (Variant A x weapons, Variant B has y weapons, etc)
6# Likewise, heat sinks are not addable/subtractable, as they are a part of variants.

[autogyro]

I believe there was some mention of some modification, such as changing your armour amounts:

Quote

Can 'Mechs be customized to change their roles (beyond merely modules and pilot skills)? –Ghost

[PAUL] The main driving force behind roles is the modules and pilot skills you choose to focus in. You’re never going to make an Atlas run as fast as a Jenner but you can lighten the loadout of it for extra armor for example. This would allow the Atlas to play more to a defensive role but again, it’s mainly about modules/skills.

[Bloody Moon]

Cruiser, on 16 February 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

They could do a classic MMO approach and say "The battlefield salvage has yilded this and this module and weapon" and then let the members of the winning team make a 1-100 roll for the individual salvage parts

I say it would be much more fitting to the Battletech universe to invent a bidding system for the parts.

For example everyone gains points for their battle efficiency and at the end of each match there is a brief 3 minute period at max where they can place bids from their points on the parts. Those who are not interested can leave this period, their points with could be added to their reserve and be used later along with the unused points from those players who placed a bid but gained more points in the battle than the ones they placed on an item.

These points could be earned for:
-Completing Mission Objectives
-Doin' damage to the opponents
-Keeping an enemy unit scouted
-First one to notice mech no one else seen during the match
-Plus those events i forgot to mention

This way instead of the usual random rolls would be replaced by a system which promotes playing better. Which is in my opinion better than just rolling a dice.

[Omigir]

Once again, slvage will be very had to determin and split... best option is to say 'this was salvaged' and liquidated into X C-bills and devided evenly amung the team. Salvage then becomes more like a collecters game as it does nothing for you realisticly.

If it got implimented at all...

If you read through all the salvage threads you see a trend that people have a hard time figuring it out and we are a like a giant think tank. So its no suprise that they may not be doing it, or it may be armor scraps/weapons only.

Edited by Omigir, 16 February 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[Zyllos]

Maybe have salvage tied to successful ejects?

Successful ejection = kept mech in current state when ejected

Failed ejection = salvaged mech in current state for player

I also liked the idea of bidding on salvage after a fight. Any items unbidded for are instantly converted to C-Bills and split among the team.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Halfinax, on 15 February 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

And then what do you do the first time you get DCed or Lagout and lose your 'Mech? What about the first time you get hit with a lucky shot? Old hats might pick up the pieces and just say "well that happened", but the casual players that the game will thrive on the business or population of just walks away and says "forget this nonesense" and the game fails within 6 months.

This plus Verybad's posts on the 1st page and we have a winner.

Seriously people, it's all fine and dandy to sit on a forum and talk about how hardcore you are by wanting total loss etc. But for the rest of us, it isn't a viable system. I would play until my mech got blasted out from under me, and I was going to have to join a House, log in every day to collect my paycheck, and in a year or two when I have saved enough to buy a slightly used Locust I would go fight again. Uh yea. In other words, everyone would just reroll. Oh and the CS? Not happening. Why buy something that can get taken away? Or they add perm mech in the CS and so insta-P2W.

[Helmer]

Sounds like once they delve into Contracts a bit more we might have a better idea.

I'd imagine salvage is mostly C-Bills won off your base contract along with bonuses for objectives, secondary objectives, wins, etc, etc. I could see POSSIBLY unlocking a new mech chasis (Fully destroyed) that you may be able to repair fully.

Contracts need to pay out enough that, if your mech is fully destroyed you can repair it all the way, or close to it. If the average persons Win/Loss ratio hovers around 50%, the Building up of C-Bills for Modules, new mechs, refits, etc should be tolerable .

A Gamer without a way to play is soon to be a Non-Customer

[Sotl]

Salvage, could work but you need to address two things. Earning another mech and Bot accounts

• Earning another mech:

“Solaris Arena” should be where we start in order to build faction and earn C-Bills.

Once we have earned enough of both we buy our starting Mech. If you choose to join a house, Mechs should be half price. Now, if you lose your mech in battle you can head back to the arena earn more c-bills, get more training and buy another mech. Arena training missions could be NPCd if there are not enough people to challenge you. The Solaris Arena should also be on a tiered system. Starting you off in a light mech and unlocking other classes as you go. When you purchase your first/only mech you should never be allowed to buy above a medium or your Solaris Arena tier, whichever is lower. If you want better, earn it in the field of battle.
Note: Every chassis should be bought empty thus forcing you to earn the equipment/weapons.

• Bot Accounts:

Salvage from bot accounts will always be a problem and it will break the game. However, if you make it very difficult and time consuming to earn a Mech in the first place that may curtail the bot accounts.


Back to Salvage:
Since house players can buy their mechs for half price they should be limited to equipment/weapon salvage only. Mercenaries should get full contract amount, whatever that works out to.

Mechs:
Mech chassis should only be salvaged from engagements with eight or greater combatants. The losing side should give up no more than one destroyed mech per engagement. Who on the winning team gets it is for another discussion. This will help prevent one on one bot engagements.

Equipment:
Ten percent of all equipment destroyed, on the losing side, should be salvaged to be sold off or lottery. This will also help prevent one on one bot engagements.

I agree, losing your mech should not discourge you from playing however, earning a mech should be a memorable thing. I remember on my first MMO getting to level thirty was a laborious task and when I finally made it, after nearly a month, I took the family out for dinner. Today, we make it so easy to achieve goals that they mean nothing.

[Big Willie]

slide, on 15 February 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Ok so according to Q&A 4 we now know this,
"Mechs can never fully be destroyed. (shot up but not destroyed)"
So where does this leave salvage?

You dont need salvage if you cannot customize your mech. What are you going to do with a dozen PPCs in the store room? replace your own damaged parts? possiblible, but isn't easer just to covnert everything to C-Bills.

And what if you could salvage a whole mech? Does the other player lose it? No, they have already stated that there is no permanent destruction. But even if you did salvage an entire mech are you going to pay to replar and use it or are you more likely to sell it and get a brand new mech of your choosing (keeping mind that mech chassis experience is tied to a particular mech/variant). Again, why not simplify everything with C-Bills.

Finally this is a Free to Play game with a store for purchased items. If someone pays real money for something (maybe a unique mech or even paint job) and you can take it away from them on the filed of battle, why would anyone ever buy unique gear when it can be lost so quickly and easily.

Edited by Big Willie, 16 February 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Dread Render]

Namwons, on 15 February 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

At the minimum I would like to see weapons and possibly modules being salvageable, given they didn't get blown up.

This is the only way... anything that can drop off the Mech can be salvage, but not the Mech itself.

oh... and up yours Rear Admiral, seems you have never played MW4M

Edited by Render, 16 February 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Beo Wulf]

The idea of creating a new account or resetting the account is the same thing, you still lose all of your stuff and that will drive people away.

As far as people going into a server and killing a freebie friend or clone game, well this would probably be accounted for. In almost every game I have ever played where you gained something from beating another player is delt with in 2 ways: 1 you are capped at how many times you can beat someone for the gain, so basically the ammount of whatever is reduced with either kill resulting in nothing usually by the 3rd kill. The second way to deal with this would be from simple economics: you can only get something as good or of lesser value from the killed mech, so basically you would have to develop a character and then use that character to speed level a new one or a friend. Simply setting up a clone of the game or getting a frined to die alot is usually addressed.

The best option for implementing salvage into the game would be to make a wager system, the more you wager the more you can gain and lose. If Team A wagers 50% salvage and Team B wagers 10%, Team B wins and gains 10% random salvage of opposing teams tech and Team A loses 50% from salvage destruction etc. Team A wins they get 50% and Team B loses 50%, I know this seems unfair but it actually isn't because it encourages big betting and allocates risk properly.

Ofcourse I can also see people being scared of this game type and it dieing quickly.

[Namwons]

If theres no salvage in game, its going to be a shame, especially for us lonewolves and solaris combatants. they did say you could customise any mech into any role and that means mech lab and full customs.

lets say, hypothetically, that it costs 50% of the value of a weapon to modify that weapon on to a mech it doesnt belong on. if we are given the face value of salvage as Cbills, we would have to buy the weapon first, then mod it to the mech in the mech lab, costing 150% cost.

if we got said weapon as salvage, we would only have to pay the 50% modification cost, or sell it back to the market, probably at <100% value. i personly like having salvage. Cbills is not the same as salvage no matter how you look at it, even at face value.

or the classic senario of "Crap i dont have enough money to replace my missing PPC...but i do have enough money to mount this Large Laser i salvaged to get back in the fight."

Edited by Namwons, 16 February 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Red Beard]

verybad, on 15 February 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

They never said salvage was in the game

....ahem...
As quoted in the 2009 IGN article...

Quote

Salvage will take on more of a real meaning in the game, right down to a rudimentary level of "keep getting enough parts to keep fighting" rather than "I have another six chassis in my inventory to just throw on the market." So we really want to get that feeling again.

CPUuser123, on 15 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

why not open roll it or give players the chance to salvage it?

Is that a direct reference to "dice rolling". Good God I hope not. So far, this game has kept a healthy separation from the TT game, and I am hoping that it continues that trend.

slide, on 15 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

True they haven't said salvage would be in the game

See above reference to IGN article.

Quote

but IMO it won't be a proper BT games without it.

I feel you here, I truly hope they find a good use for salvage. It isn't really a "make or break" thing for me, but there might be something they can do. Maybe salvaging a downed enemy mech replenishes some ammo...?

Quote

I agree you could go broke quick if you keep losing, but thats the risk when you go to war.

Here's the thing. Most people won't feel the same way about this game that you do. This ISN'T war. It is a video game, and most players are not looking for a game that punishes them for losing.

verybad, on 15 February 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

There has not been salvage in any multiplayer mechwarrior game in any case.

...cough cough...MechAssault did it great...cough...wheeeeeeeze....



The suggestion below....

nubnub, on 15 February 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I think you should be able to loose everything. You then have to go into gladiator type fights to earn money and freedom, or someone gives you a mech which you have to do missions for, then you will value your mech. Makes everything more valuable and more realistic

= NOT FUN!!!

[Riptor]

About what the devs said:

The devs never said anything about salvaging entire mechs. All they have mentioned is salvaging parts to keep your mech running.

Salvaging internals/weapons? That i can see happening and would not go against what the devs said before, especialy if we will have different quality in weapons or different manufacturers.

But we have the confirmation now that there is no perma loss of your own mechs and people should friggin deal with it.

This is a free to play online game for everyone to enjoy and not for only the die hard extremists among the BT fans that really have some weird ideas about "fun"

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"All they have mentioned is salvaging parts to keep your mech running."

Would you mind linking us in to that tidbit please. Seem to have lost my copy of that Memo. Thanks in advance.

[Red Beard]

MaddMaxx, on 16 February 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Would you mind linking us in to that tidbit please. Seem to have lost my copy of that Memo. Thanks in advance.

Quote

Salvage will take on more of a real meaning in the game, right down to a rudimentary level of "keep getting enough parts to keep fighting" rather than "I have another six chassis in my inventory to just throw on the market." So we really want to get that feeling again.

This quote is directly from IGN's interview with the devs in 2009. Here is the link...

http://pc.ign.com/ar.../1002164p1.html

Cheers.

You will find the section that I quoted in the middle of page three, BTW.


My most immediate thoughts on this subject are that the devs had every intention of making salvage a big part of the game, but they had to change a great deal between then and now, so who knows. I don't believe that this article proves anything other than the fact that the devs have given salvage a great deal of consideration.

Edited by Red Beard, 16 February 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Red Beard, on 16 February 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

This quote is directly from IGN's interview with the devs in 2009. Here is the link...

http://pc.ign.com/ar.../1002164p1.html

Cheers.

You will find the section that I quoted in the middle of page three, BTW.


My most immediate thoughts on this subject are that the devs had every intention of making salvage a big part of the game, but they had to change a great deal between then and now, so who knows. I don't believe that this article proves anything other than the fact that the devs have given salvage a great deal of consideration.

That was for a SP Game with Campaign to be called MW5. It is so far gone now as to be totally bogus info. You feel that article is still relevant?