30 replies to this topic

[Argent Usher]

Well i know clans are cool, the clan mechs are cool, the clan tech is Über but these guys have come up with some honor rules too.


Rules of Engagement, or RoE, is the preferred method of combat for trueborn Clan Warriors. Trueborn are the product of the eugenics system of the Clans. They are created artificially in laboratories, and genetically engineered to produce the ultimate Warrior. In contrast, freeborn are people who have been given birth the natural way. According to the Way of the Clans, only the trueborn are superior and pure. They, by birth right, are with honor, and righteous. Among the elaborate and mysterious ways of the trueborn Warrior is the Rules of Engagement.

RoE was a method of combat devised after the Exodus from Terra, to minimize huge losses of valuable equipment and human lives in combats and battles. The most important aspect of RoE is single opponent combats. This brief general summary of the Rules of Engagement are as follows, and pertains only to BattleMechs vs. BattleMech battles:

A Warrior will never fire on a 'Mech already engaged with another opponent. This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.

A Warrior will at no time initiate physical attack, such as charging, punching, kicking, or clubbing.

Only in the event that a Warrior has no more weapons at his or her disposal, may the he or she engage in physical attacks.

Following these basic guidelines ensure that a Clan Warrior will fight with honor. There are other conditions to RoE, that individual Clans will follow. For example, depending on the Clan, a Warrior may or may not be able to:

Fire on a retreating 'Mech

Fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech

Fire at the rear of a 'Mech

Target the head or leg of a 'Mech

Failure to adhere to RoE during combat will cause loss of honor for a Warrior, as well as serious repercussions from his or her commanding officer.
The use of IDF, or indirect fire, will also result in a loss of honor.

The only other exception to these Rules of Engagement are when engaged with mercenaries. Mercenaries do not combat for a worthy cause. They seek only material and monetary advancement, and so they are, by definition, without honor, and deserve no RoE.

(Source: http://ppc.warhawken...lans/honor.html)



Can you really want to play as Clanner ?

[Shiney]

All's fair in love and war.

I think the reality is anyone being a clanner is highly unlikely to adhere strictly to those guidelines in community warfare, except perhaps for Trial of Position, or a similar agreement amongst fellow clans. I used to run with Smoke Jaguars back in MW2 days and we sure did follow TOP and to a certain respect TOE with other clans if previously agreed upon. The inner sphere were beneath us and we blasted until there was nothing left except a molten ingot of metal.

[Mattrixx]

Well, you could argue with this that any free born (read Inner Sphere players) are not true warriors and True Born, as your text put there, and thus all are without honor and are not righteous and RoE need not apply.

You'll have people going to the clanns who won't follow the clan ways simply because they can join them. And that they see in their own eyes the clans to be superior and better in all ways. And still won't follow the RoE you put up there against Inner Sphere players.

From what i've seen there have been arguments about this as long as the forums been around, more or less.

[Sam Slade]

Argent Usher, on 02 September 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.

No wonder they all ended up being test tube babies

[Stormwolf]

Argent Usher, on 02 September 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Fire on a retreating 'Mech

Fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech

Fire at the rear of a 'Mech

Target the head or leg of a 'Mech

That's complete rubbish, those are not mentioned in any official source ever.

I'll post the real Rules of Engagement when I get home.

Edited by Stormwolf, 02 September 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[Argent Usher]

Hmm....and immediately a wolf howls.

I just wanted to know whether players are ready to be a Clanner really.



Note: I played a longtime TT campaign as Clan Fire Mandrill with RoE and yeah it was a pain (especially because I had a self-imposed disadvantage on my initiative at the begin of the campaign because of the Kindraas)

[Stormwolf]

Argent Usher, on 03 September 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Hmm....and immediately a wolf howls.

I just wanted to know whether players are ready to be a Clanner really.



Note: I played a longtime TT campaign as Clan Fire Mandrill with RoE and yeah it was a pain (especially because I had a self-imposed disadvantage on my initiative at the begin of the campaign because of the Kindraas)

I've been playing by honor rules for nearly 15 years, I know what it entails.

I'll post the rules mentioned in official books along with explanations for the people who are completely in the dark here.

[Adridos]

Well, it's adhering to the honor rules or a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery BIG nerf to all of your toys, choose wisely.

[Stormwolf]

Adridos, on 03 September 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Well, it's adhering to the honor rules or a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery BIG nerf to all of your toys, choose wisely.

You are not really a Clan player if you don't adhere to the honor rules anyway.
I already fear the day that the hordes of powergamers start screwing up the Clans because they want the best toys.

[CoffiNail]

This it to tide people over until StormWolf brings out his RoE

[Jjakji]

So the Clans Aren't EVIL? that goes against all my Brain washing....

[Dymitry]

Jjakji, on 03 September 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

So the Clans Aren't EVIL? that goes against all my Brain washing....

No. We also are,at least at field level, moved by inherently better motivations that money or power.

[The Basilisk]

According to what was said by the devs there will be the possibility to set up team versus team.
So fighting according to cellbrigen will be possible in an enclosed environment.
In open game it will get difficult.
There is a often forgotten point in cellbrigen. You have to fight according to it untill the enemy breakes them, if he does youre free to go without anny losses. And you don't want a bunch of angry claners hunting you who are buthurt because you insulted them with not respecting their ways. Imagine two Timberwolves hunting your little laserehunchie. More armor, faster, heavier weapons, more heatsinks, better sensors. Do you realy want to tik those people of ?

Edited by The Basilisk, 03 September 2012 - 06:05 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Stormwolf, on 03 September 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

You are not really a Clan player if you don't adhere to the honor rules anyway.
I already fear the day that the hordes of powergamers start screwing up the Clans because they want the best toys.

I fear that (sadly inevitable and imminent) day as well.
(Hence my position that humans simply can not and should not be trusted to portray Invasion-era Clanners... but, that's another discussion.)

CoffiNail, on 03 September 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

This it to tide people over until StormWolf brings out his RoE

Oh, how I'd love to see the Clans implemented with both this "Rede of Combat" and Zell as hard-coded into the Clan side of the game!

[CoffiNail]

Rede of Combat is more or less Zellbrigen. Zell is ultimately a honour duel. 1 vs 1, the one with the better skill wins. The whole point of Zell is victor based on the superior warriors. It is a trial to the warriors skills.

[Thunderguff]

The Basilisk, on 03 September 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

According to what was said by the devs there will be the possibility to set up team versus team.
So fighting according to cellbrigen will be possible in an enclosed environment.
In open game it will get difficult.
There is a often forgotten point in cellbrigen. You have to fight according to it untill the enemy breakes them, if he does youre free to go without anny losses.

So... Clanner or not, the second someone on either side breaks the rules - all ROE are off and it's gangkilltastic time anyway. Fluff accurate though it may be, unless it's hardwired into the game in some way it strikes me as the sort of catch-all get out clause that power-gamers will quote endlessly to justify going outside the spirit of the clans. Cue many protestations along the lines of:

"His mate shot me first... he did... he totally did and everything... that means I can shoot who I like and gang up on people. Go on... prove he didn't shoot me first... you can't, can you!!!! Eat Pulse Laser... zat, zat... bwa ha ha haaaaa".

I would like to make it clear that I don't condone this attitude... but I fear it may be inevitable in public matches. Private events for discerning individuals in well disciplined and mature environments may be the only hope for the dedicated Clanners amongst us.

[Sam Slade]

Thunderguff, on 03 September 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

discerning individuals in well disciplined and mature environments may be the only hope for the dedicated Clanners amongst us.

ahahaha...HAHAHA...ha!

Sorry... but it is a little bit funny.

Seriously though, most people who play will be in the 'Cool! Uber-mechs!' camp not the 'Ich bin ein Clanner!' camp... the vast majority will not know or care about hte 'rules'.

Edited by Sam Slade, 03 September 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Kaine Vulpayne]

Some rules are easy to implement, like losing honor for the commander if he has high losses.
The question is, if the game servers would be able to detect more complex RoE-violating behaviour like ganging up. I think it's possible.

If so, then it would be fairly easy. Violations cost honor, so just introduce honor as a stat or currency (maybe not as a number but in a descriptive way, so only the server knows the exact value). So clan warriors can only advance with sufficient honor, i.e. higher ranks, better mechs, better equipment requires a certain level of honor. Simple.

Honorless stravags will be restricted to salvaged IS light and medium mechs. Muahaha, Jesus, I can see the whine threads already (Mimimi I joined clans to pwn in my mighty Daishi but all I got was this lousy Commando)

Killing an opponent with higher tonnage gives honor bonus, more so the greater the gap is. This would actually create an incentive for pro-gamers to play along these rules in order to prove their superiority.
Being commander and losing star members costs honor. This could lead to the clans lacking motivated command personnel :-D

IDK if this is correct but IF RoE do not apply against IS forces for the greatest part of the clan invasion RoE would not be an important game aspect, only for inter-clan conflicts and batchalls (which really should be implemented and the only means of advancing in rank for a clan warrior).

Still, fighting against heavier IS mechs should give honor bonus anyway, which gives the incentive for the rule of minimal resource usage and thus make clan warriors want to use smaller mechs. maybe give the survivors of the victorious clan team a bonus based on enemy overall tonnage /. own overall tonnage. But then noone would want to use 100t mechs. So also giving them an option to go into the battle with less than max pilots (currently 8, is this supposed to go up to 12?), would be another way.

What would be a stupid decision for IS teams would be a challenge for pro-gaming clanners and a way to gain a good bit of honor against IS forces ;-)

On the other way, losing a match against IS vermin costs honor, so you better use that Daishi before you screw up and are not allowed anymore to ride it to battle because your honor sucks :-D

TL;DR I think if thoroughly implemented, honor and RoE can be used to actually make the clans a challenge for better players instead of a hub for easy-team joining Pwnz0rs

Edited by Kaine Vulpayne, 03 September 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Okay, I'm back and have access to all my books. Now first of, I have already discussed Clan honor a little bit before in this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...1414-clans-101/

In another I described the general mindset that is needed to function in a Clan:

http://mwomercs.com/...a-clan-warrior/

But now I'll move on to describe what the honor rules (Zellbrigen) entail and how they can be implemented in the field.

Let's sum up the common rules here:


1. Each warrior shall challenge a opponent that no one else is currently fighting, none shall interfere.
CoffiNail once made suggestion for a "claim button" so your fellow star mates will know what mechs are off limits to them. The idea here is that you will fight in a honorable duel to prove that you are fit to fight your own battles. Weak warriors are a liability the Clan cannot afford.
Helping a teammember out is a grave insult, it would imply that the person you helped is not strong enough to fight their own battles. Those who can't hack it will be weeded out soon enough.

It is possible for a warrior to challenge multiple opponents if they have individually lower tonnage or BV. This can only work if there are far more opponents then Clan players present. Claiming all the opponents for yourself will not sit well with the rest of your unit, there should be a limit of potential opponents present decided by the number of players on the opposing team. Every warrior should get a chance to down atleast one mech in a match, those who beat their opponents shall not interfere with any battles that are still being fought.


2. Warriors are allowed to refuse challenges
You are not bound to fight any opponent that challenges you. Clan honor can be strict, but it most definately isn't stupid. You have the right to simply refuse a challenge from a opponent in a different weight class if you have allies nearby who are more evenly matched.The condition here is that you still have allies left who are currently not fighting.

You can refuse a challenge from a IS warrior in a Atlas when your Nova has already killed two guys and lost a leg in the process, let your friend in the Warhawk take care of this one.

You can also refuse a challenge when you suspect that foul play is involved. let's take this old textbook example:

Quote

You are playing the Clans in a scenario with Honor Level
1. You have one Daishi and your opponent has four ’Mechs:
a Banshee, an Orion, an Atlas and a Spider. The Spider
challenges the Daishi to a duel, which the Daishi accepts. The
Spider then uses its superior movement rate to hide behind hills
and heavy woods so that the Daishi never gets line of sight to
it. Meanwhile, the other three members of the Spider’s lance
pound the Daishi to dust. The Daishi cannot retaliate because
its player must adhere to Clan honor, which in this case means
he can only attack the ’Mech that challenged him to a duel. He
vainly attempts to chase the Spider, while “off -limits” enemies
destroy his BattleMech.

Now a smart player would have refused the challenge of the Spider and would have challenged all the mechs present instead. You can ask their unconditional surrender if they refuse your challenge, you can open fire to your hearts content if they don't comply. Killing the Banshee, Orion and Atlas will leave the Spider with very little options.

But don't for a moment think that this will get you out of fighting guys in 1 on 1 duels. It's shameful to refuse a honorable challenge from a guy of similar weight that just wants honorable battle.


3. Area effect weapons are not to be used unless the enemy is dishonorable
We didn't design the Naga to go on Founding Day parades. But this mech is not the weapon of choice for dueling. As a matter of fact, all sorts of equipment can be seen as dishonorable. The use of C3 networks if frowned upon since it shares data between units, TAG (when used) can also be viewed in the same way since it takes multiple people to operate.

That is for dueling, Clan warriors will not use C3 systems, but Arrow IV and TAG are viable options when fighting against opponents that have proven themselves to be dishonorable. Comstar most definately comes to mind here, this faction will use any dirty trick to win.

In such cases it is allowed to tag the enemy units. One should also note that vehicles and dropships are not privy to Zellbrigen. In such a case it would be allowed to use mechs with TAG to target dropship while Arrow IV mechs hammer away at them. But this should only be done if they have proven themselves to be hostile.


4. Retreat is dishonorable unless Hegira has been granted
Running away from a opponent instead of dying a honorable death is the greatest shame a warrior can have. This is far worse when retreating from IS units. It is however possible to retreat from units if they recognize your ability as a warrior and grant the ability to withdraw honorably. There is no loss of honor involved here.


Additional rules TT:
We discussed the general rules, there is also a subset of sorts created for the TT to recreate Clan behaviour in the field. These rules are actually not as strict as they sound, they are only there to ensure that duels are not broken up.

- If a dueling unit intentionally moves out of its opponent’s line of sight, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.
Moving out of the enemy LOS means that you can't run away over that hill to get away from him, it is okay to circle around a obstacle to avoid SRM fire or to use cover to get to your enemy so you can fire your short range weapons.

- If a dueling unit has line of sight to its opponent but intentionally fails to fire at the enemy, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.
This rule is designed to keep the fight going, you will probably be shooting like there is no tomorrow anyway. People who are about to shut down are ofcourse exempt from this. The general idea here is that you can't give your enemy a edge over you because you hesitated to fire when you had a chance to do so.

- If a dueling unit moves out of firing range of all its weapons, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.
This rule essentially translates into "don't run away from a fight". It is okay though when you have a fast light and do hit and run attacks on a far heavier unit.

- If the unit earns no dezgra points in a turn, it may remove 1 dezgra point in the End Phase of that turn. A unit can not, however, reduce its dezgra points to zero in this way.
There is no actual implementation for this, but I included it for the sake of completeness


Mechwarrior 2 rules
Yeah, that's right, the page Coffinail posted is from the MW2 games. The rules here are not considered canon in the TT sense, but they are excellent guidlines for behaviour.

You can download the original manual here: http://cf.sarna.net/...chwarrior_2.pdf

Rules of Engagement
We are bound by the rules and traditions of our great forefathers to uphold the honor and
glory of the Clans. Clan warfare follows a strict code of honor – a glorious method that is
designed to preserve life rather than destroy it. Only warriors adhering to such codes
shall emerge victorious and worthy of the honor of being BattleMech pilots. MechWarriors
shall strive for perfection in combat, perfection in the life of a warrior – all for the
glory of the Clans.

• The successful completion of the primary objectives of a mission shall bestow unto a MechWarrior the glory of a victorious battle.
  
• Performance beyond the call of duty, qualified by the successful completion of any secondary or tertiary objectives a mission may call for, shall commend a MechWarrior with the highest honor of the Clan.
  
• By fighting a war with fewer combatants, fewer lives are lost. Engaging in battle with the fewest ’Mechs possible, in the tradition of the Batchall, shall uphold a warrior with the highest honor of battle.
  
• Deploying lighter ’Mechs into combat than the Keshik deems necessary and preserving the technology of the Clans shall give a MechWarrior much honor through his career.
  
• Engaging in battle with more than one ’Mech against a sole MechWarrior holds the least honor; one-on-one combat holds the highest Clan honor.
  
• A MechWarrior commanding a Star is held responsible for his starmates. The loss of a starmate is deemed a dishonored act in the tradition of Clan warfare and shall be noted.
  
• Engaging in battle under the condition of Altered Reality, which causes a pilot to battle under the false belief of Invulnerability or Unlimited Ammo, shall deny a MechWarrior’s advancement through his career.
  
• Knowingly piloting a ’Mech whose Heat Tracking and Collision Damage system have been altered shall earn a MechWarrior great dishonor.

Those last two are settings you can select in the game, that's right, Clan warriors hate no heat and unlimited ammo games .



I hope this has been informative for all of you.

Edited by Stormwolf, 03 September 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Exilyth]

Stormwolf, on 03 September 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I hope this has been informative for all of you.

Great post.
To support it with a source, I'll point out that sarna.net has an article on zellbrigen.