136 replies to this topic

[Stone Profit]

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I got no insult from that Stone... I'm not mad

Canon Mechs means those mechs in the existing literature and previous iterations of the game.

Non-canon means those of new origin in both structure and specification as never seen before.

Like when 3050 they added all the clan gear

Is that what we're talking about? Not trolling as I said this whole things a troll. The poster put up an inflammatory questionnaire, of course its based on opinion which everyone's is different.

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 February 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I got no insult from that Stone... I'm not mad

Canon Mechs means those mechs in the existing literature and previous iterations of the game.

Non-canon means those of new origin in both structure and specification as never seen before.

Like when 3050 they added all the clan gear

Is that what we're talking about? Not trolling as I said this whole things a troll. The poster put up an inflammatory questionnaire, of course its based on opinion which everyone's is different.

non-canon in this case (to me) would be to retcon in some new designs that did not exist in that timeframe. Now, if we were in 3085 timeframe which is the last tro to come out, and is on the later edge of what has been written into the universe, sure, but new designs suddenly pop up in this well established time period just feels wrong to me.

on a personal note, thank you for understanding that i am not trying to insult you, and please know that I chose my words carefully so as to not insult you unintentionally. Words are the highest form of culture imo, and it behooves us all to use them properly to avoid confusion.

[XMK2CATX1]

There are alotta mechs I drove in game. Fewer I loved driving, if you ever played vs me in MW4, Vengeance, and then the MechTek addons, you know me. As having been a MekTek Beta Tester, some of the stuff I loved, some of it stunk and never saw follow on game play, like the nuke. They stunk the way they were set-up. The whole thing is a long process, and takes time, anything uber is gonna cost heat range or limited ammo, or multiple in those criteria. Just the way it is, bigger the gun you carry, the more the ammo weighs, the heavier the gun is, less rounds per size of space. I honestly loved the BK, Timberwolf, Direwolf, Stonerhino, Mar, MarII and the BloodAsp. The MkII was up there but not among my favorite rides.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Stone Profit, on 17 February 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

non-canon in this case (to me) would be to retcon in some new designs that did not exist in that timeframe. Now, if we were in 3085 timeframe which is the last tro to come out, and is on the later edge of what has been written into the universe, sure, but new designs suddenly pop up in this well established time period just feels wrong to me.

on a personal note, thank you for understanding that i am not trying to insult you, and please know that I chose my words carefully so as to not insult you unintentionally. Words are the highest form of culture imo, and it behooves us all to use them properly to avoid confusion.

I like your assessment, and see where your coming from 98% of my brain agrees with that, 3085, is only 2046 for a new mech outside of canon. Thank you for the kindness and I understand.

Please note.. I will be 76 years old in 2046. LOL

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 17 February 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Exilyth]

Mhh.. I've been thinking... we haven't even mentioned the official level 3 stuff yet.
If it was included, that would add a load of special ammunitions, weapons, components and equipment, all from canon sources.
(And variants/mechs using that equipment)

[Azantia]

[EDMW]CSN, on 17 February 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Wrong I always wanted the see the love child between the Atlas and Urbie. Aka the IMP

ITS A SUPER TRASH-CAN!!!

Edited by Azantia, 17 February 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Azantia]

Omigir, on 17 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

All I really have to say, is that with as much war as is going on in the IS, it makes no sens that R&D slowed down as much as it had during 3030-3050. The IS does not really start seeing new technology untill *after* the clans invade. This is unheard of. War always breeds new techology yet not only did the termoil prevent new war machines being developed, but the IS retarded in concepts and desing during this time frame. Why not stumble on lost tech a little bit sooner? Have that burst of inovations that are seen in 3050-3060 (or so) when starlegue tech is being rediscovered and implimented occure sooner?

If you understand the story line :
1. Kerensky took 70 to 80% of the scientists and technicians from the Inner sphere with him on the exodus.
2. Years of war destroyed the knowledge / blueprints of what had been common place in the Star league
3. The factories that produced much of said technology were destroyed, as they were destroyed, the ability and knowledge perished with them.
4. A larger percentage of the population base for each faction is most likely having to become professional soldiers, not scientists or technicians.
5. The Inner Sphere does have technological advances in the experimental phases, but its slow going because the state of technological decline. Look at the Enfield mech. House Davion had the plans for the mech for years, but lacked the ability to produce it, until 3050.

[Maris]

I don't think I really mind that much if PGI wishes to introduce a brand new mech design of their own but priority should be given to introducing the existing canon mechs. As someone already pointed out, there are hundreds of designs, many are yet to be seen in most MW games and if you add in variants...well lets just leave it at that.

It almost make no sense to waste resources and development time on a new mech when we probably won't see the whole mech list in-game.

[Trogusaur]

Some of my favorites come from the non-canon group, such as the Deimos, or the MW4 Flea. These mechs were bright spots to the gameplay, as both were outside the norm and the designs themselves were a bit more innovative than the "standard look" of the classics. Honestly, I don't care much for the original mechs (even though the redesigns are incredible!), as they are mostly humanoid and rather bland with nothing new to offer as compared to other mechas (hence, the Unseen.).

Even though it wasn't there before doesn't mean it can't exist now. BT has come along way since the 80's, and I would like to see some additions here and there. I am not proposing doing away with the canon storyline, I just want something new to keep things fresh, rather than playing every stage of the story to the exact letter by which the books described it. A little spice to an old franchise certainly never hurts, as long as it sticks to the original values!

Edited by Lord Trogus, 17 February 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

Azantia, on 17 February 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

If you understand the story line :
1. Kerensky took 70 to 80% of the scientists and technicians from the Inner sphere with him on the exodus.

Quote

" When the leaders of the great houses call for Kerensky's resignation, he gathers a huge fleet of the Star League Army together at New Earth. He and his troops leave Star League Territory and pass beyond the Periphery. 80% of the Army goes with him."

No mention of Scientists an Techs.

[Exilyth]

MaddMaxx, on 17 February 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

No mention of Scientists an Techs.

No mention that he only took soldiers with him.
Also, technical personal counts as part of 'the army' too.

And for the scientists... if given the choice to stay in the war ravaged IS or go where no man has gone before, what would you do?

Edited by Exilyth, 17 February 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Mason Ventris]

I say yes. As long as they are not over the top like the endboss in Mechassualt 2. No one here has the right to say "No! No more Mechs. Stick With What we have." Im Pretty sure that the TT game did not introduce all the known Canon mechs as soon as it came out. So no reason to stop with the creation as long as it makes sense.

[MaddMaxx]

Real quick here.

Every Mech the Dev add is a new Mech. FD re-designs and then they have to model that design. What goes on it might make a new one different but the weapons are/will already available (the Flamer is an example)

So a new Mech would take no more time or effort than any other Mech to be played in game. If I were a betting man, I would guess that FD has a couple "thoughts" already on paper.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 February 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Opus]

Mason Ventris, on 17 February 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

I say yes. As long as they are not over the top like the endboss in Mechassualt 2. No one here has the right to say "No! No more Mechs. Stick With What we have." Im Pretty sure that the TT game did not introduce all the known Canon mechs as soon as it came out. So no reason to stop with the creation as long as it makes sense.

Yeah, I got lynched for saying something to that nature earlier...

it felt something like this

Azantia, on 17 February 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

If you understand the story line :
1. Kerensky took 70 to 80% of the scientists and technicians from the Inner sphere with him on the exodus.
2. Years of war destroyed the knowledge / blueprints of what had been common place in the Star league
3. The factories that produced much of said technology were destroyed, as they were destroyed, the ability and knowledge perished with them.
4. A larger percentage of the population base for each faction is most likely having to become professional soldiers, not scientists or technicians.
5. The Inner Sphere does have technological advances in the experimental phases, but its slow going because the state of technological decline. Look at the Enfield mech. House Davion had the plans for the mech for years, but lacked the ability to produce it, until 3050.

another thing to bring up about new mechs vs Canon: the Gray death legion found the Helm Memory core about 20 years previous to this launch, that launched a whole new wave of development.....

but there I go again speculating on what the devs can do vs Canon

Edited by Opus, 17 February 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Tsen Shang]

Lord Trogus, on 17 February 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Some of my favorites come from the non-canon group, such as the Deimos, or the MW4 Flea.

The Flea was from TRO: 3050. The Deimos is cool though.

[Insidious Johnson]

Canon, not canon, whatever. The video game series has always been at the mercy of rabid TT fanboiz. I've never touched TT, never will. But from what I understand, folks with pen and paper could build whatever they wanted however they wanted within certain rulesets, and had the most freedom to seek the experience they wanted of all the BT gaming formats. From what I understand, its all gonna be stock with variants....for game balance issues in MWO. This go round, I'm all for balance it as much as possible, just to cull some of the "d00d, j00 beatz me, j00 iz hax0r, me go suck thumb, never play j00 againz!!" When someone beats the crap out of another, constantly having its legitimacy questioned will push good players away fast since people willing to play them dwindles fast.

Ok, back to the point of the thread, lol. From what I can tell, ALL BT based video/cpu games are: Apocryphal Product

Although it is an official BattleTech product, the subject of this article may not meet the criteria for Canon for the BattleTech universe.
See the article's section on Canonicity for details.



So that means, try to stick to canon but not by putting that stick up your backside. I'd encourage the Dev's to employ creativity and invent some history and mechs on your own. Don't be afraid to add anything to the game if it is "cooler than canon". I have yet to read BT book one, probably never will, no appeal to me at all. I say, move the entire genre to video/cpu games, call the TT stuff Apocryphal, and let the dev's have the creativity to call the shots as to what the universe should be. With all the whinging from the Dark Age stuff from the TT boiz in the past sounds like the board game and pen/paper side of things is winding down in popularity, while the video game side of things has pulled in more new recruits to the genre for years anyways. Long live the video gamers, the new masters of the genre! The TT stuff only keeps the genre on life support between video games anyways, imho. Oh, yeah, I'd like TT Human Shield armor type as one of the armor options in MWO.

[El Loco]

To Omigir and Azantia:
You're both right. Thing is, when all this fluff was created back in the 80's, our data back-ups were mostly analog, i.e. in print outs. These are 1) harder to distribute (shipping costs, printing costs... blabla), 2) more difficult to store (they take away space, you need some sort of analog data bank which is a royal pain in the arse to manage), and 3) easy to destroy. But, our modern society not only stores knowledge in books and papers, but to tremendous amounts in digital copies as well, and it has the internet at hand. This makes knowledge indestructable and almost omnipresent, ideas can be interchanged easily and damn fast, our scientific progress therefore has expedited exponentially. Scientists carry their entire research in as little as a 2.5" HDD, having entire bookshelves filled with their research notes, papers, and books as well. We have entire libraries stored on our computers.
BUT: This developed over the last 20 years... i.e. after the downfall in knowledge was written into the BT universe! If BT were created in 2000 or later, nobody would've thought of loss of knowledge to such extent. Therefore, from a modern point of view it makes perfectly sense to argue for the inclusion of stuff that, according to lore, was developed several years later. But that's not the point of this thread, I guess.

BTT:
So far, I've seen a couple of definitions of 'non-canonical'. I like to think of 'non-canonical' not as a strong antonym to 'canonical'. This means, I don't think a 'Mech becomes non-canonical as soon as you redesign it... because the 'Mech is defined by its weapons loadout and internal structure. I can see several economical benefits from implementing non-canonical 'Mechs into the game. It's good publicity, e.g. have people send in their own creations, including a short description of the looks (or a sketch). This could be done via social networks or at conventions. Nevertheless, I still hold on to my earlier statement, that the devs most likely will receive tons of ideas for new 'Mechs, which not only can distract them from their real work on the game, but also be quite an annoyance. And we as players have to ask ourselves, do such designs really add to the depth of the game? Or do we already have most of the tactical and strategical roles filled by an adequate number of chassis? I'd say, yes, we have. At least for the moment... and the technological breakthroughs both in 'Mech designs and in weaponry following the Clan invasion lie ahead.

[Outlaw2]

I'd rather they tap into one of the many canon mechs first. Have FD touch up a fugly oldie, and bam new mech.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 17 February 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

I'm the kind of guy that says "stick to canon," especially where MechWarrior is concerned. However, we do see a trend here: MechCommander variants have since reached canon status, MW4 'Mechs were made canon, hell even some of the garbage we saw in MechAssault was canonized, after being hit hard with a common sense bat.

What I'd love to see is one(1) non-canon mech, of very limited production. Attainable only at the highest levels, or(preferably) as a buy-only 'Mech(similar to gol... er, premium tracked vehicles in another game, only costing more here). I'd like to see it designed with input from CGL, with a clear story to it, and all that jazz. IF CGL chooses, they could choose to make it canon, and perhaps a mini of it would be released.

MC got canonization.
MW4 got canonization of an entire range of 'mechs, including minis.
MA... you get the idea.
I'd like to see MWO also get the same treatment, only done right this time.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I voted no on this poll for many of the reasons already given. I enjoyed creating my own "designs" in MW3 purely for the fun of it. That however was not competitive MP. People will always create their own mechs http://mwomercs.com/...ts-for-winners/ - why not add some here. If the dev's do decide to add non-canon they may choose your design, assuming that Paul wont have his PNK TDR in first
Unless you played TT most of you would have never played "standard" 3025 mechs as they were not in the video games which were set in the future of this game. The original mechs were not designed to be perfect mech killers, which is what happens with player designed mechs.
To be honest I don't think they have the time and effort available to put in new mechs to start with. What happens when the Clan's arrive and they have an established and hopefully successful game is another matter.

[Stone Profit]

Opus, on 17 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yeah, I got lynched for saying something to that nature earlier...
L
it felt something like this




another thing to bring up about new mechs vs Canon: the Gray death legion found the Helm Memory core about 20 years previous to this launch, that launched a whole new wave of development.....

but there I go again speculating on what the devs can do vs Canon

You didn't get "lynched", you got called out, and that's not why you got called out. It was because you presumed to speak for everyone.

And the helm memory core brought you improvement likes CASE, ultra ac 5, lb 10 x, artemis IV, streak srms, and xl engines and other components.

Edited by Stone Profit, 17 February 2012 - 09:22 PM.