49 replies to this topic

[Immitem]

TROWAHC, on 05 September 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok so first off you state that mechs are ment to have superior maneuverability. Have you ever seen a tank with jump jets? Or move up the inclines that are in the game maps? Or turned quickly while still at full speed? Don't worry, I'll answer for you. It's NO. And more importantly the video you showed is for Heavy Gear. A completely different sci-fi universe to Mechwarrior. So don't think you can prove an argument by showing something that has no relevence to the universe in question. And secondly. most tanks carry two weapons a cannon of some description, and a mounted chain gun. How many weapons can you carry on a Atlas for example? A **** ton more. In conclusion if you think tanks are better then whats on offer here in MWO then go play that game.

OK first off I will address your attack, yes your writing empirically denotes a written attack against my statement. The first thing is that tanks can indeed climb the same inclines and not only that can do a 180 at full speed simply by using brakes on only one of the treads. So I will answer that for you, yes.

Second whether or not I used Heavy Gear is completely irrelevant as I specifically pointed out a single maneuver I found it hard to explain that GIVEN WHAT MECHS CAN ALREADY DO would not be out of their league.

Lastly tanks can still carry more than two weapons but even that is irrelevant when in real life they could engage them far beyond the range of any of the mechs weapons with the accuracy to specifically target the center torso. When reading the books or watching prerendered trailers you get to observe how the weapons of mechs work or are hindered by conventional building materials and thus this give a good gauge of their weapon strengths which means that today's weapons would not be useless against the mechs ablative armour.

The tanks additionally are still easier to build and maintain.

[Strum Wealh]

TROWAHC, on 05 September 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Have you ever seen a tank with jump jets?

In terms of BT/MW: the Kanga (links here and here) is a 50-ton Star League era hovertank equipped with Jump Jets.
The latter link even describes how a few surviving examples "have lost their ability to hover but have kept their jump jets operational", thus becoming "pure 'jump tanks'".

However, TechManual states, "Combat Vehicles built under these rules may not possess jump capability as BattleMechs do, and therefore may not mount jump jets."
So, the reason for not seeing more jump-capable Combat Vehicles in-universe is less a matter of technical feasibility, and more that the current TT rules gimp Combat Vehicles in order to (over)emphasize the battlefield superiority of BattleMechs.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 September 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Immitem]

Strum Wealh, on 05 September 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

So, the reason for not seeing more jump-capable Combat Vehicles in-universe is less a matter of technical feasibility, and more that the TT rules gimp Combat Vehicles in order to (over)emphasize the battlefield superiority of BattleMechs.

So there is no technical reason stated for this? It is merely an artificial handicap?

Edited by Immitem, 05 September 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Immitem, on 05 September 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

So there is no technical reason stated for this? It is merely an artificial handicap?

Well, the fluff-reason is that it's apparently much more difficult to balance a low-profile, wide-planform platform (like a tank) through a jump than it is to do the same for a tall (read: high center of gravity) bipedal walker (like a BattleMech) with identical technologies...
So much so that the former apparently requires an incredibly complex control system (that includes a fairly high-level AI)that has been all but lost to history (save for the surviving "jump-tank" Kangas).

Fluff-wise, even Clan ****'s Horses, for all their vaunted Clan-tech and love of Combat Vehicles over BattleMechs, failed to create their own "viable" jump-capable Combat Vehicle; the end-result of their attempt was the 30-ton Hephaestus hovertank.

IS BattleMechs can canonically play baseball and do handstands at the 3047 Noisiel Summer Games (see my previous, longer post), but 3062 Clan tech can't make a tank hop the length of a soccer field (90 to 120 meters)...?

-----

Also, other fun things Combat vehicles are not allowed to do (by TT rules):

• use Endo-Steel internal structures (TechManual, pg. 98)
  
• use XL engines at normal weight; weight must be increased by 50% (rounded up to the nearest half-ton) "to represent additional shielding" (TechManual, pg. 101)
  
• use MASC or Triple-Strength Myomer (TechManual, pg. 103)
  
• use Double Heat Sinks (TechManual, pg. 104)

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 September 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Immitem]

Strum Wealh, on 05 September 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well, the fluff-reason is that it's apparently much more difficult to balance a low-profile, wide-planform platform (like a tank) through a jump than it is to do the same for a tall (read: high center of gravity) bipedal walker (like a BattleMech) with identical technologies...

I read that in Sheldon Cooper's voice.

A point I have made about certain advantages of the tank are its low profile and you inadvertently added another one. A more stable jump jet platform.

[Capp]

AlexEss, on 05 September 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Also tumbling and leaps were common in the early novels too so it is sort of in the canon... Even if i have a hard time seeing how a handful of warheads could do more damage to a armour panel then a 30 ton warmachine travelling a 40-50 Kmph suddenly place all of it's weight and momentum on it.

I started reading the novels in the middle, by then falling over and hitting the ground could cost tons of armor... then I read the earlier novels and saw a mech do a barrel roll somersault, to avoid like... an SRM-2 volley and I was like... the damage from that can't possibly be better.

Punching and kicking I can see, (I'd love to kick a Jenner when they're humping my Atlas's leg so I can't shoot them) but no acrobatics.

Crouching, yes.

[prozender]

I vote just to return movements from the old Mechwarrior games - crouch, pivot legs to where you're facing (correct me if this is in the game, i just havent been able to do it). Reticule-zoom (hate the new zoom), well thats not movement but still. Mechs dont strafe, the first video is from heavy gear, i different universe, i think

[Immitem]

prozender, on 05 September 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

, the first video is from heavy gear, i different universe, i think

Yes it is a different universe but the pivoting on the foot should not conceivably be something that a mech cannot do.

Capp, on 05 September 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

but no acrobatics.

I agree with that but for some reason people keep coming back to acrobatics as if it were something that I at any point implied.

[Capp]

Immitem, on 05 September 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

I agree with that but for some reason people keep coming back to acrobatics as if it were something that I at any point implied.

It was in the fluff, and other people brought it up, so I mention it just for clarity. Even the later novels seem to have shied away from it, if memory serves.

My theory is it was easy to say they played mech-size sports and stuff in a little snippet from the TT fluff (as in a previous example) but once you try to visualize how that could ever happen, like an actual novel writer would be doing because they actually have to describe it occurring, then you end up realizing how impossible that would be without resorting to Anime physics.

Edited by Capp, 05 September 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Capp, on 05 September 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

It was in the fluff, and other people brought it up, so I mention it just for clarity. Even the later novels seem to have shied away from it, if memory serves.

My theory is it was easy to say they played mech-size sports and stuff in a little snippet from the TT fluff (as in a previous example) but once you try to visualize how that could ever happen, like an actual novel writer would be doing because they actually have to describe it occurring, then you end up realizing how impossible that would be without resorting to Anime physics.

Not necessarily.

Consider how capable modern humanoid robots are:

• Use of sign language at the 3:30 mark.
  
• Opening a sealed container and pouring liquid at the 4:57 mark.
  
• Hopping on one foot and remaining upright at the 7:00 mark (includes transitions from walk to run to hop, and back).
  
• Hopping on one foot while turning in place at the 7:45 mark.

Granted, ASIMO and its ilk won't be delivering roundhouse kicks to anyone's face anytime soon, but they're highly capable without having to "resort to anime physics".

I believe that the OP's point was that BattleMechs (especially the more humanoid models, like the Atlas or the Centurion), essentially being scaled-up and futuristic versions of the same technology, would be easily likewise capable of human-like movements and operations - even if they are slower and more cumbersome in the execution of said movements and operations due to their much greater mass and bulk.

Given the above video, the "BattleMech calisthenics drill" scene in Falcon Guard becomes more believable, does it not?