Zellbrigen looks to be the Clans formal way of saying "No kill stealing!". If a clan warrior cannot defeat an enemy that he has decided is his and only his then he's not worthy of piloting his Mech. Kill stealing is outright rudeness when done with malice and forethought.
Another reason why I'm hoping that kills are not a large part of the reward equation; There are many ways to defeat your opponent without "the kill". Would be frustrating to be the only Mech left on your side and know that the game will not end until someone "kills" you. Would rather have an option to transmit a surrender and have it accepted.
5
Possible solution to in-game Zellbrigen - force in software.
Started by Xarg Talasko, Feb 19 2012 08:42 PM
52 replies to this topic
#42
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:52 AM
Interesting idea but I dont personally agree with making everyone who wants to play a Clan Unit follow a generic form of Zell, since each Clan and even down to each Warrior has their own defenition/version on what they consider what Zell is. 2ndly as shown below Zell is considered a ritualistic from of honor dueling practiced by the warrior caste of the Clans.Clan vs Clan, Zellbringen will work because both use that form of ritual combat. Now Clan vs IS, Zellbringen will not work because IS does not fight that way and do not/did not understand that form of combat. You can say to balance out the fights between Clan and IS is 5 vs 8 or what ever number you use, as soon as 2 IS Mechs attack one Clan Mech, Zellbringen is over and the Clan Unit can call Zell null and viod and turn it into a free for all to take out the inferior and dezgra IS mechwarriors for not following Zellbringen. Zellbringen only works if both sides agree to fight that way, Mech vs Mech even numbers, other wise its a moot point.
Overview
Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.[1][2]
[edit]History
The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.[1][2]
[edit]Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.[4]
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.[4]
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.[4]
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.[4]
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.[4]
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.[4]
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.[4]
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.[4]
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.
[edit]Interpretation
How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.[4]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.[4]
[edit]References
[edit]Bibliography
§ Field Manual: Crusader Clans
§ Field Manual: Warden Clans
§ Total Warfare
Overview
Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.[1][2]
[edit]History
The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.[1][2]
[edit]Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.[4]
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.[4]
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.[4]
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.[4]
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.[4]
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.[4]
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.[4]
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.[4]
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.
[edit]Interpretation
How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.[4]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.[4]
[edit]References
1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17
2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15
3. ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40
4. ↑ 4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12 Total Warfare, p. 275
[edit]Bibliography
§ Field Manual: Crusader Clans
§ Field Manual: Warden Clans
§ Total Warfare
Edited by Cyber Carns, 27 February 2012 - 12:56 AM.
#43
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:46 AM
RogueSpear, on 20 February 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:
The clans canonically used Zellbrigen against the IS despite the Inner Sphere not conforming to Zell. Remember they were trying to liberate the Inner Sphere and civilize the barbarians. Some individual commanders would remove Zell, others would not. There are multiple stories of such things as Inner Sphere pilots harassing a clan 'mech that cannot engage because their commander has claimed the IS 'mech as their kill. It was only after Tukayyid that the clans began to fully throw out Zell against IS forces that did not conform to it in equal force matches. Zell was often thrown out when a binary faced a battalion for example, but in relatively equal matches they would insist on Zell because it was their fighting philosophy and is the system by which clan warriors gain honour and thus advancement. There is no honour gained when Zell is thrown out the window.
incorrect. Many commanders and sub-commanders forfeit their own honor for the over all win. Which would have netted more honor than a honorable loss. (example: Battle for glory in "Blood Name")
Fugu, on 20 February 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:
To implement anything like that in the game would be an awful thing to do.
Players can very well regulate themselfs. To hinder one disobeying, largely artificial, rules would prevent those who wish to follow those rules from actually feeling honourable.
Where is the honour in following honour driven rules if you couldn't disobey them even if you wanted to?
Players can very well regulate themselfs. To hinder one disobeying, largely artificial, rules would prevent those who wish to follow those rules from actually feeling honourable.
Where is the honour in following honour driven rules if you couldn't disobey them even if you wanted to?
Agreed. Whats the point when the game decides when I can't be a ******* and shin you when no one is looking.
Longsword, on 21 February 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:
and some people dont like to be ganged up on by a group of mechs that are superior in every way, its a balance thing.
I'd be fine fighting 5v8. Since when has a clan player ever asked to be even on numbers? Its likely going to be the other way around. And finally...
CoffiNail, on 21 February 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:
They have already stated they are trying to work a Zellbrigen reward system.
What he said. Good to see the devs seem to have good sense.
Edited by geck0 icaza, 27 February 2012 - 01:47 AM.
#44
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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:22 AM
I can't even begin to follow your point in that post, and I'm not sure you followed ours...
It is canon that the clans attempted to follow Zell against the IS. Yes, there were exceptions - but overall, they did use it during the invasion. There is no way of 'hardcoding' your in game player actions into a game. You will always be able to break Zell, but you should be punished for it. Obviously a reward system for following it will need to be added and the standard point scoring system should apply anyway.
Example:
Mechwarrior A is engaging an Atlas in his Puma. Mechwarrior B notices A is getting into a losing fight, and engages with his Thor. He loses 10 points immediately, but over the course of the battle keeps his ally alive, does much damage to the Atlas and kills it, gaining 5 points for the kill and a live ally with 2 CERPPCs. In the remainder of the battle this will either pay benefits or loss - using only the kill examples here, if he kills another mech he has broken even, and the team as a whole benefits from the live Puma (not to mention the puma player). If he doesn't, then he takes a loss. Such a system encourages Zell and punishes breaking Zell arbitrarily. As a reward, let's say there's a x2 multiplier on any kill he takes down solo (Or when the previous engager has died/disengaged in dishonour) - that second mech he might kill later will immediately bring him back into the positives.
As for the 'I'm fine playing 5v8' comment, I'm sure you are. In your Mad Cat. Fighting, say the Black Knight, since that's an IS 75 tonner. You with 12 tonnes of ferro fibrous armour, twin CLRM 20s, 2 CER Large Lasers, 2 CER Medium Lasers, CER Medium Pulse Laser, and 2 CMGs.
Against a Black Knight with 11 tonnes of standard armour, a standard PPC, 2 Large Lasers, 4 Mediums and a small laser. It's also 20 KP/H slower than you.
5 Mad Cats will easy decimate a force of 8 Black Knights if allowed to engage indiscriminately and pulverize one at a time, able to out manoeuvre, out range, out gun and out tank with ease. Speaking as someone who will nearly definitely be playing Inner Sphere (I prefer the looks and feel of a lot of Clan 'Mechs, the MW4 interpretations of the Behemoth (Specifically the purely inventer Mk I variant) and Hellhound are easily my two favourite 'Mechs, but I prefer the atmosphere and background of the Inner Sphere) I do not want to walk my inferior mech into battle and immediately get dogpiled and brought down in seconds every time I fight the clans. That's simply not fun. Nor do I want to have to camp all game every game in a city and hope to do the same to a clanner in ambushes to hope to stand a chance. That's also not fun.
The designers will need to implement a system that allows superior clan 'mechs, for Inner Sphere players not to get demolished in seconds, and for noobs to not immediately jump in the clans without a clue how to play the game and still spray IS 'mech parts all over the map. It'll be tough. But implementing a Zell 'carrot and stick' system that will add or subtract from C-Bills(/Faction/Clan equivalent) and XP gained should allow this - even if it does take a few iterations to balance. I do get the 'I don't want to be straight jacketed' complaint, and I agree - but there has to be a penalty for taking any action or there is no balance. This is why assaults have movement and large profiles and lights have low armour and firepower.
It is canon that the clans attempted to follow Zell against the IS. Yes, there were exceptions - but overall, they did use it during the invasion. There is no way of 'hardcoding' your in game player actions into a game. You will always be able to break Zell, but you should be punished for it. Obviously a reward system for following it will need to be added and the standard point scoring system should apply anyway.
Example:
Mechwarrior A is engaging an Atlas in his Puma. Mechwarrior B notices A is getting into a losing fight, and engages with his Thor. He loses 10 points immediately, but over the course of the battle keeps his ally alive, does much damage to the Atlas and kills it, gaining 5 points for the kill and a live ally with 2 CERPPCs. In the remainder of the battle this will either pay benefits or loss - using only the kill examples here, if he kills another mech he has broken even, and the team as a whole benefits from the live Puma (not to mention the puma player). If he doesn't, then he takes a loss. Such a system encourages Zell and punishes breaking Zell arbitrarily. As a reward, let's say there's a x2 multiplier on any kill he takes down solo (Or when the previous engager has died/disengaged in dishonour) - that second mech he might kill later will immediately bring him back into the positives.
As for the 'I'm fine playing 5v8' comment, I'm sure you are. In your Mad Cat. Fighting, say the Black Knight, since that's an IS 75 tonner. You with 12 tonnes of ferro fibrous armour, twin CLRM 20s, 2 CER Large Lasers, 2 CER Medium Lasers, CER Medium Pulse Laser, and 2 CMGs.
Against a Black Knight with 11 tonnes of standard armour, a standard PPC, 2 Large Lasers, 4 Mediums and a small laser. It's also 20 KP/H slower than you.
5 Mad Cats will easy decimate a force of 8 Black Knights if allowed to engage indiscriminately and pulverize one at a time, able to out manoeuvre, out range, out gun and out tank with ease. Speaking as someone who will nearly definitely be playing Inner Sphere (I prefer the looks and feel of a lot of Clan 'Mechs, the MW4 interpretations of the Behemoth (Specifically the purely inventer Mk I variant) and Hellhound are easily my two favourite 'Mechs, but I prefer the atmosphere and background of the Inner Sphere) I do not want to walk my inferior mech into battle and immediately get dogpiled and brought down in seconds every time I fight the clans. That's simply not fun. Nor do I want to have to camp all game every game in a city and hope to do the same to a clanner in ambushes to hope to stand a chance. That's also not fun.
The designers will need to implement a system that allows superior clan 'mechs, for Inner Sphere players not to get demolished in seconds, and for noobs to not immediately jump in the clans without a clue how to play the game and still spray IS 'mech parts all over the map. It'll be tough. But implementing a Zell 'carrot and stick' system that will add or subtract from C-Bills(/Faction/Clan equivalent) and XP gained should allow this - even if it does take a few iterations to balance. I do get the 'I don't want to be straight jacketed' complaint, and I agree - but there has to be a penalty for taking any action or there is no balance. This is why assaults have movement and large profiles and lights have low armour and firepower.
#45
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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:15 AM
Nathan K, on 21 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:
Neg. I don't like to be forced to ignore someone shooting at me.
Obviously you don't know Zell very well, or maybe forgot, but you can attack anyone that attacks you, and in the OP part of the implementation was to have some kind of indicator for those enemies that attack you or gang up on mechs.
For balance there will need to be some sort of reward system.
#46
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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:18 AM
Bare in mind the example i gave (Battle for glory) was against ANOTHER CLAN. The point is not all clanners care about personal honor ALL of the time. The carrot and stick idea you have isn't bad. But the game shouldn't force it on you. The dev's have consistently talked about all carrot. So having great benefits for following is more of an incentive to follow it rather than ok perks for doing it and some down side for not. I can definitely see some meta for riding the mid point happening.
Of course when you take 5 Timberwolfs against anything its going to be rough. Epecially if all you bring is 8 blackknights. But Did the IS beat the clans by fighting straight up? Even with the numbers they don't win. The idea is to use tactics: take a scout, some assaults and mix others in there. Scout out the clanners, gaul them into bad position and single them out with as much fire power as you can.
As Clanner I have the luxury of not needed to use my brain let me firepower carry the day (not saying thats all we do just keep reading) as an IS pilot you do not. Use the tactics and strategy the IS uses. It wasn't easy fighting the clans even when they did follow zellbrigan.
PS: I would take no joy in face rolling an IS team if they had no real chance. Thus I don't think fighting clanners should be easy. Otherwise there wouldn't be any satisfaction in winning.
RogueSpear, on 27 February 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:
As for the 'I'm fine playing 5v8' comment, I'm sure you are. In your Mad Cat. Fighting, say the Black Knight, since that's an IS 75 tonner. You with 12 tonnes of ferro fibrous armour, twin CLRM 20s, 2 CER Large Lasers, 2 CER Medium Lasers, CER Medium Pulse Laser, and 2 CMGs.
Against a Black Knight with 11 tonnes of standard armour, a standard PPC, 2 Large Lasers, 4 Mediums and a small laser. It's also 20 KP/H slower than you.
5 Mad Cats will easy decimate a force of 8 Black Knights if allowed to engage indiscriminately and pulverize one at a time, able to out
Against a Black Knight with 11 tonnes of standard armour, a standard PPC, 2 Large Lasers, 4 Mediums and a small laser. It's also 20 KP/H slower than you.
5 Mad Cats will easy decimate a force of 8 Black Knights if allowed to engage indiscriminately and pulverize one at a time, able to out
Of course when you take 5 Timberwolfs against anything its going to be rough. Epecially if all you bring is 8 blackknights. But Did the IS beat the clans by fighting straight up? Even with the numbers they don't win. The idea is to use tactics: take a scout, some assaults and mix others in there. Scout out the clanners, gaul them into bad position and single them out with as much fire power as you can.
As Clanner I have the luxury of not needed to use my brain let me firepower carry the day (not saying thats all we do just keep reading) as an IS pilot you do not. Use the tactics and strategy the IS uses. It wasn't easy fighting the clans even when they did follow zellbrigan.
PS: I would take no joy in face rolling an IS team if they had no real chance. Thus I don't think fighting clanners should be easy. Otherwise there wouldn't be any satisfaction in winning.
#47
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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:52 AM
So you don't take any joy in facing an IS team if they don't stand a chance, yet you want to be able to just show up and brute force your way through without brains? There is no way to achieve that and achieve any game balance - because someone will show up and use their brain and they will never lose again.
As for the 'all carrot' approach, that does not now, nor has it ever worked. Rewards are optional achievements - a punishment is something to be avoided. There must be both, or you get people settling for the lower xp and the constant wins. As for fighting the clans straight up, the Inner Sphere did - and it won. It wasn't all treachery and backstabbing. The clans should have a reward and a punishment for following Zell - if you want a totally free playstyle, forfeit your fancy toys and play Inner Sphere. It's pretty much that simple - clans get better stuff, but they have to play by Zell. Otherwise, no balance. Yes the clans steamrolled the 'Sphere, but this is a game. If the IS show up and lose every match, no one will play IS.
And the game dies.
As for the 'all carrot' approach, that does not now, nor has it ever worked. Rewards are optional achievements - a punishment is something to be avoided. There must be both, or you get people settling for the lower xp and the constant wins. As for fighting the clans straight up, the Inner Sphere did - and it won. It wasn't all treachery and backstabbing. The clans should have a reward and a punishment for following Zell - if you want a totally free playstyle, forfeit your fancy toys and play Inner Sphere. It's pretty much that simple - clans get better stuff, but they have to play by Zell. Otherwise, no balance. Yes the clans steamrolled the 'Sphere, but this is a game. If the IS show up and lose every match, no one will play IS.
And the game dies.
#48
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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:18 PM
RogueSpear, on 28 February 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:
So you don't take any joy in facing an IS team if they don't stand a chance, yet you want to be able to just show up and brute force your way through without brains?
because that's totally what I meant -.-
#49
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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:30 AM
Well please, enlighten me as to what you did mean - when I see a comment saying:
I read that as the poster expecting and wanting that situation. I do note the 'Not saying that's all we do please keep reading' and I know you personally will be using your brain in combat - but if you're using tactics and strategy in 'mechs that are able to bull their way to victory regardless, then the IS pilots who are having to do their utmost best to outwit you anyway, you'll win every battle. Without fail. That isn't balance.
Hence something needs to be done to balance the sides. Having the IS outnumber the clans is canonically valid, but very hard to balance right, especially in a small scale game. A company vs a binary is too small a gap, two lances vs a star will horribly imbalance the maps (Designed for 12 v 12 games). Toning down the clan 'mechs (Which will most likely happen anyway to a small degree) won't make anyone who's been playing anything battletech for long happy (I was playing Mechcommander 2 last night and had a Mad Cat tank it's way through my force of 2 Zeus, a Cyclops and a Thor with ease, despite getting focussed by all four it dropped a Zeus. As it should be). Clan 'mechs that can simply wander over anything the Inner Sphere can throw at them is horribly imbalanced, but kind of the feel we're looking for. Ideally, the clans should be winning a little more than half of their games - when they arrive, and be fully balanced later. Implementing some sort of carrot and stick Zell system should allow that (And at least slow the inevitable horde of griefers, noobs and power gamers who'll flock to the clan banners). You can ignore it, but it might not actually be in your favour - as often happens in the fluff.
If you've got a better suggestion for balancing the clans I'd genuinely love to hear it, but this is the best I've seen so far and I don't have a better one. But the argument of 'You can't limit a player's playstyle' is an invalid argument - nearly every game does so in some manner. As things are shaping up, even with this Zell system implemented for clans, I think MW:O will be a very open game. And if you dislike having to play by Zell or taking a penalty, join the IS.
geck0 icaza, on 28 February 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:
As Clanner I have the luxury of not needed to use my brain let me firepower carry the day
I read that as the poster expecting and wanting that situation. I do note the 'Not saying that's all we do please keep reading' and I know you personally will be using your brain in combat - but if you're using tactics and strategy in 'mechs that are able to bull their way to victory regardless, then the IS pilots who are having to do their utmost best to outwit you anyway, you'll win every battle. Without fail. That isn't balance.
Hence something needs to be done to balance the sides. Having the IS outnumber the clans is canonically valid, but very hard to balance right, especially in a small scale game. A company vs a binary is too small a gap, two lances vs a star will horribly imbalance the maps (Designed for 12 v 12 games). Toning down the clan 'mechs (Which will most likely happen anyway to a small degree) won't make anyone who's been playing anything battletech for long happy (I was playing Mechcommander 2 last night and had a Mad Cat tank it's way through my force of 2 Zeus, a Cyclops and a Thor with ease, despite getting focussed by all four it dropped a Zeus. As it should be). Clan 'mechs that can simply wander over anything the Inner Sphere can throw at them is horribly imbalanced, but kind of the feel we're looking for. Ideally, the clans should be winning a little more than half of their games - when they arrive, and be fully balanced later. Implementing some sort of carrot and stick Zell system should allow that (And at least slow the inevitable horde of griefers, noobs and power gamers who'll flock to the clan banners). You can ignore it, but it might not actually be in your favour - as often happens in the fluff.
If you've got a better suggestion for balancing the clans I'd genuinely love to hear it, but this is the best I've seen so far and I don't have a better one. But the argument of 'You can't limit a player's playstyle' is an invalid argument - nearly every game does so in some manner. As things are shaping up, even with this Zell system implemented for clans, I think MW:O will be a very open game. And if you dislike having to play by Zell or taking a penalty, join the IS.
#50
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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:50 AM
Honor is currency. Currency that can be spent.
I propose instead of an elaborate system of tags and flags and forced rules of engagement - why not reward the players who skillfully engage in honorable combat? Some bonus C-Bills for successfully downing a mech without the aid of your star mates will encourage people to go for it. No need to overcomplicate things.
I propose instead of an elaborate system of tags and flags and forced rules of engagement - why not reward the players who skillfully engage in honorable combat? Some bonus C-Bills for successfully downing a mech without the aid of your star mates will encourage people to go for it. No need to overcomplicate things.
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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:17 AM
RogueSpear, on 29 February 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:
I read that as the poster expecting and wanting that situation. I do note the 'Not saying that's all we do please keep reading' and I know you personally will be using your brain in combat - but if you're using tactics and strategy in 'mechs that are able to bull their way to victory regardless, then the IS pilots who are having to do their utmost best to outwit you anyway, you'll win every battle. Without fail. That isn't balance.
The game is building a system that can be used to help begin to balance that out. The mods. The IS has always had an advantage when it came to munition types and electronic options. Since the the current talked about communcations system is very similar to C3. (that makes me curious on how they'll do C3, but I digress) Since clanners don't like to "share" the mods availible can be different in that they have mods that (insert benefit to firing at a single target but not share the info you normally would or something). This is just an example mind you. But that can be a way to refrane from changing the mech/weapons themselves and balancing
GreyGriffin, on 29 February 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:
Honor is currency. Currency that can be spent.
I propose instead of an elaborate system of tags and flags and forced rules of engagement - why not reward the players who skillfully engage in honorable combat? Some bonus C-Bills for successfully downing a mech without the aid of your star mates will encourage people to go for it. No need to overcomplicate things.
I propose instead of an elaborate system of tags and flags and forced rules of engagement - why not reward the players who skillfully engage in honorable combat? Some bonus C-Bills for successfully downing a mech without the aid of your star mates will encourage people to go for it. No need to overcomplicate things.
Sounds like a good idea, and what the devs have talked about. Since the F2P model will allow for quick updates this can allow for adjustments to be made.
RogueSpear, on 29 February 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:
Ideally, the clans should be winning a little more than half of their games - when they arrive, and be fully balanced later. Implementing some sort of carrot and stick Zell system should allow that (And at least slow the inevitable horde of griefers, noobs and power gamers who'll flock to the clan banners). You can ignore it, but it might not actually be in your favour - as often happens in the fluff.
I agree with the disdain for people moving to the Clans simply cause "they gots cooler stuf". But I think the real fear Clan players have is being told how clans fight by someone who doesn't understand them. I had way too many face palm moments in MW4 when I had "Clanners" (power gamers) tell me it wasn't honorable to leg someone or hit them in the back if they turned it to me. (had to tell them to read a book) I remember a funny case of a league that actually had clanners line up and send the fighters out one at a time in some rediculous take a number and wait to be mobbed scenario. I had some good laughs after the reading that Zell system. But anyways, I think if you create great synergy between the mechs on the IS side and increase the numbers gap to something appropriate it should be fine. After all every time I play IS on the TT synergy is always my main killer. Might work for this.
Edited by geck0 icaza, 01 March 2012 - 09:46 AM.
#52
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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:27 AM
why handicap yourself to a system that the clans themselves dont even follow in the lore books. there are tons of reports of clans not being able to win and calling in support. smoke jaguar were an evil lot and singled out for destruction because of it, jade falcon is a close second. if clans got put into the game...and thats a huge IF imo. i wouldnt worry about trying to be honorable and 1v1 in a game that is being designed for multiple tactics to be introduced into the battlefield.
#53
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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:31 AM
Not sure i can quit understand this Zellbrigen concept as a matter of 1-vs-1 considering it would sure become an unfair match if a jennr or any light mech should come face to face with an asslt class mech i know that 2 to 3 lights working together can ear down an asslt mech eventually but not in a 1-vs-1 scenario 
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