26 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

I would suggest we consider the idea of giving Scouts a manual radar ping capability so they can run around in passive radar-mode and manually send out a "radar ping" every once-in-a-while to probe for enemy Mechs. This would put a Scout in less danger compared to continuously broadcasting on active radar-mode, yet would require the Scout to plan their pings wisely in order to both avoid giving themselves away, and avoid missing the enemy forces entierly.

This mechanism would fit very well into the "information decay" theme of Information Warfare. Scouts can send out a Ping, get rough positional data, relay it to their commander, and move out. Of course, it's just a ping so it would decay quickly. All the while, the hostile forces have only that one, brief burst of target-signature to follow before the fleeing Scout disappears from their scopes.


Maybe it would be neat to create a Ping Module or a Ping Skill to offer a Ping feature to your radar at the expense of making yourself more detectable when you use it. Thusly, the Ping Module or Ping Skill gives you some of the benefits of ECM (for example: you are dectable only to 500-700 meters when you broadcast a Ping compared to a Mech that's detectable to 1000m with active radar, but you can't reap this benefit once you go radar-active for combat), and it gives you some of the benefits of a Beagle Active Probe (as in you have a better ratio of detection/detectability you can ping out to 1200m, but again you lose this advantage once you go radar-active).

Possibly, pending discussion, you could include some kind of ability to detect hostiles (and be detectable by hostiles) through certain environmental features to a degree.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 February 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

By no means would a ping leave a Scout with the reduced detectability that running around passive normally grants you - that Ping is a double-edged Ping.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 February 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Starne]

I hate to ask, but in that case, what's the real point of 'pingning'? What does it do that running active or passive mode doesn't? If you want to detect stuff, run active, and risk being detected. If you want to run silent, run in passive and risk running around that corner and being face to face with an Atlas. From what you're describing, 'Pinging' is pretty much the same as just quickly toggling between Active and Passive modes.

Sorry, I'm just failing to see what functionality it would have that is'nt already there.

[Orcinus]

The thing is, if your radar is active all-day every-day, you're running around in your light mech for all the world to see and all of a sudden you have a bunch of their lights or mediums (and even fast heavies sometimes) chasing you all over the place. It may become difficult to get into a good position to get a good read on the enemy's location if you're busy trying not to get blasted to smithereens.

On the other hand, detection range is severely limited in passive, but you should know that already...

Radar pings are a way of getting a general idea of where the enemy is while minimizing your risk of being seen and (possibly) killed. Imagine it this way:
While passive, you remain unseen while you maneuver your way into a position where you can get the widest range of view. Then, in the moment you activate the ping, you take a look (through radar and other such devices) at any enemy forces in the area. You send the info (if any) to your commander, and then immediately (if not sooner) go to passive. In going back to passive, you allow yourself the chance to get away while possibly remaining undetected. Since the enemy only has a single point marking your location to work with, it can become difficult to pinpoint where you are and (more importantly) where you are going.

From my interpretation, a logical equivalent would be switching from passive to active and back to passive.
The advantage of pinging vs. switching? Speed.
You can only move your fingers so quickly. If a single button is devoted to a single ping, you further minimize the time in which you expose yourself. Sure you have less time to take a look at what's there, but if you have good enough memory skills, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. The less the enemy has to work with, the better your chances of survival.

Bear in mind, this is all based off my interpretation of "pinging" as described by the OP.

EDIT: As for putting this feature in MWO, my opinions are still TBD.

Edited by Orcinus, 20 February 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Effectively, what is the difference between what you propose and toggling the radar from off to on for 1 second with a c3 on board?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Insidious Johnson, on 20 February 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Effectively, what is the difference between what you propose and toggling the radar from off to on for 1 second with a c3 on board?

Response:

Prosperity Park, on 20 February 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Thusly, the Ping Module or Ping Skill gives you some of the benefits of ECM (for example: you are dectable only to 500-700 meters when you broadcast a Ping compared to a Mech that's detectable to 1000m with active radar, but you can't reap this benefit once you go radar-active for combat), and it gives you some of the benefits of a Beagle Active Probe (as in you have a better ratio of detection/detectability you can ping out to 1200m, but again you lose this advantage once you go radar-active).

I edited my numbers above.

A Ping Module/Skill would give you a *brief* moment of broadcasting further than you can be detected like having a BAP or ECM, but it become useless whenever you use Active Radar for combat [whereas the BAP and ECM are always active], so that balances the benefits you get.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 February 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Insidious Johnson]

One thing I loved about scouting in MW4, you get a range reading from a reticle. You know the effective ranges of your ECM with radar on and off. You should know which mechs are bap capable and adjust your position based on visual contact alone. Your proposal would remove an element of skill, instantly negating lessons learned from many trial and error engagements. It would, however, mean any uninitiated could effectively scout well following a simple dictum of stand off observation with few if any counters. If I could see a place for it, it would be very very very late game.

[Vernius Ix]

I think many of you are not realizing what a "Passive" radar system is capable of.

A "Passive" radar suite is capable of reading the electronic signals sent out from other active radars and plotting their bearing relative to the Mechs position. While this may not give an exact position on the enemy in and of itself, multiple Mechs can be used to triangulate and pinpoint the source of the signal.

A "Active" radar suite sends out an electronic signal that when it hits a solid object bounces the signal back.

This is just a very simple breakdown, but I think it conveys the difference.

[Mautty the Bobcat]

Yea...I was always kinda annoyed that the 'passive' radar was actually turning your radar off, not making it passive.

The passive radar should allow you to detect a general direction of the enemy, not a specific point. Using either just movement (less accurate) or multiple passive mechs, you could obtain a relative idea of where the mech is by pointing toward the center of a 3 mech tipped triangle.

[HATER 1]

i understand what the OP is saying, and a manual radar ping would add a lot of depth to the information warfare part of the game. to expand upon it, allowing the pilot to decipher and analyze the ping's return to determine basic info (approx location, mass) would be as neat and challenging as avoiding the heavy pilot that wants to play whack-a-scout after catching you pinging

the only part i have in disagreeing with this is the notion that EVERY mech should have the capability to ping while passive, and the fact that information gained in such a way would have less detail and greater decay than information obtained normally. ideally, this would be a seek/search function only, and only help the player in obtaining tactical and strategic intel, as opposed to providing it. ("he's somewhere over in that general direction, i think in a medium chassis, probably not far away.")

EDIT: the difference between pinging and active sensors is that a ping is just a short burst transmission, like flipping the light on and off real quick in a pitch black room, and you have the light on your head. this is compared to the regular transmitting of an active sensor cluster, which would be more like just flipping the light on and looking around. (yes, the light is still on your head for that exercise)

Edited by HATER-1, 21 February 2012 - 03:10 AM.

[guardian wolf]

We had a similar tactic in the Wolf's Dragoon online units, you take three pings, spaced apart to get a bearing and general direction, then move accordingly, it was what we did, and we would do this off and on for the entire battle, and it made it pretty interesting, especially when the other side was pinging as well, which would make what we call a "blind" match.

[MaddMaxx]

guardian wolf, on 21 February 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

We had a similar tactic in the Wolf's Dragoon online units, you take three pings, spaced apart to get a bearing and general direction, then move accordingly, it was what we did, and we would do this off and on for the entire battle, and it made it pretty interesting, especially when the other side was pinging as well, which would make what we call a "blind" match.

What your describing is Active/Passive/Active/Passive/Active Passive, thus enlarging your capable Radar range temporarily in order to gain quick Intel. The other Team, doing the same thing also gave them the same info right?

How is a Ping different, unless the other guy doesn't get your location when you Ping, but that can't be right, otherwise the only way to ever Scout would be via Pinging and Passive would become the default unless you required a hard Target lock.

Is this Ping a 360 degree signal, or is it more forward looking?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 21 February 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Vernius Ix, on 20 February 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

I think many of you are not realizing what a "Passive" radar system is capable of.

A "Passive" radar suite is capable of reading the electronic signals sent out from other active radars and plotting their bearing relative to the Mechs position. While this may not give an exact position on the enemy in and of itself, multiple Mechs can be used to triangulate and pinpoint the source of the signal.

A "Active" radar suite sends out an electronic signal that when it hits a solid object bounces the signal back.

This is just a very simple breakdown, but I think it conveys the difference.

Are you talking "Real" ,as in modern, passive radar systems or MW (the game) Radar systems. Think Umbrella for MW.

In MW a Passive radar was a shrinking of your radar profile (Hit R on keyboard) down to +/- 400m (don't remember right off) with Active out to 1000m without system add-ons. You could turn off your radar (Ctrl-R on keyboard) and still get 250m radar signal pick up but no hard Locking for missiles.

Sorry, I am not entirely clear about what radar system is being discussed.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 21 February 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[guardian wolf]

MaddMaxx, on 21 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

What your describing is Active/Passive/Active/Passive/Active Passive, thus enlarging your capable Radar range temporarily in order to gain quick Intel. The other Team, doing the same thing also gave them the same info right?

How is a Ping different, unless the other guy doesn't get your location when you Ping, but that can't be right, otherwise the only way to ever Scout would be via Pinging and Passive would become the default unless you required a hard Target lock.

Is this Ping a 360 degree signal, or is it more forward looking?

Yes that is what I was referring to the sequence of Active/Passive, we just called it a Ping. And yes the enemy could do the same thing, but what would happen sometimes is that we'd ping at different times, and then, get no reading, so it turned into a deadly game of cat and mouse.

[MaddMaxx]

guardian wolf, on 21 February 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yes that is what I was referring to the sequence of Active/Passive, we just called it a Ping. And yes the enemy could do the same thing, but what would happen sometimes is that we'd ping at different times, and then, get no reading, so it turned into a deadly game of cat and mouse.

Been there done that and it was cool. Get the enemy chasing the little red dot(s).

This Ping the OP speaks of seems to want to do the same sort of thing but it is not overly clear who sees what when the Ping goes active.

Got it.

Quote

"All the while, the hostile forces have only that one, brief burst of target-signature to follow before the fleeing Scout disappears from their scopes."

So same as active/passive but with a quicker method to achieve I guess.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 21 February 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[guardian wolf]

It was, it got to the point where the first ten minutes of a match, was just finding the ******s. Though I will admit, sometimes we'd drag it on, on purpose because we had finally found them, and they didn't realize it yet.... oh, good times.

[Kenyon Burguess]

passive radar just detects incoming radar. pinging is for sonar

[guardian wolf]

He's talking about a radar "Ping"

Edited by guardian wolf, 21 February 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Kaemon]

Can I Pong an enemies Ping?

Can I spoof this Pong so without LOS or active Radar, I may seem to be emitting a much larger ping than a scout should be?

Then the only way he can be sure is to go active, then I have 'mail' sent his way.

That I like, hiding sometimes is nothing more than convincing the other mech you're a very nasty heavy mech so he'll wait for backup before engaging (which allows me to continue scouting).

And yes, you should have to activate Active rather than activate Passive (except for Heavy/Assault, just to play into their role a bit more).

Edited by Kaemon, 21 February 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Gorith]

Orcinus, on 20 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

The thing is, if your radar is active all-day every-day, you're running around in your light mech for all the world to see and all of a sudden you have a bunch of their lights or mediums (and even fast heavies sometimes) chasing you all over the place. It may become difficult to get into a good position to get a good read on the enemy's location if you're busy trying not to get blasted to smithereens.

picture being the last mech running around the bounderies to avoid dieing while listening to benny hill opening theme... sorry couldnt resist