34 replies to this topic

[Suskis]

As I have stated already, I think that only Level 1 technology is balanced enough to be almost perfect, IMHO. The arrival of OP weapon like Gauss Rifles or, even worse, ER PPCS (Clan's version are almost a joke for someone that plays only Level 1 rules) changed the game from careful tactics to "EAT THIS 4 ERPPCS FROM 4 MILES AWAY" games.
However, as it seems this has already been decided, we'll have Level 2 stuff.


But what about even more questionable stuff in Level 3 technology? Mechanical Jump Jets, for example. Or center torso cockpits and so on. Do you think we'll see this freakish stuff sooner or later?

(I'd like to see 1 to 9 tons mech, though. I liked that insane idea)

Edited by Suskis, 04 April 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Stormwolf]

People already got spoiled with LAMS and whatnot in MW4, I hope we won't be seeing it.

[Morashtak]

With the current plan for the time line to proceed on a 1:1 scale (1 real day equals one BTU day) "OP" items are not going to be popping up for years even if future expansion packs take on a time jump or two.

Seems to me we should worry about tech in the pre-3050 time frame and getting that balanced during beta. The MVP (minimum viable product) at launch will not have the entire BTU equipment list. Just most that is found in 3049 and prior (if available by being common, cache find, etc).

Going to be tough enough to get what we have balanced.

[Tadakuma]

Suskis, on 04 April 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

As I have stated already, I think that only Level 1 technology is balanced enough to be almost perfect, IMHO. The arrival of OP weapon like Gauss Rifles or, even worse, ER PPCS (Clan's version are almost a joke for someone that plays only Level 1 rules) changed the game from careful tactics to "EAT THIS 4 ERPPCS FROM 4 MILES AWAY" games.
However, as it seems this has already been decided, we'll have Level 2 stuff.


But what about even more questionable stuff in Level 3 technology? Mechanical Jump Jets, for example. Or center torso cockpits and so on. Do you think we'll see this freakish stuff sooner or later?

(I'd like to see 1 to 9 tons mech, though. I liked that insane idea)

You think the clan ER PPC is bad, how about the clan ER large laser, 4 Tonnes, 1 Critical spot, 10 damage, 12 heat and a longer range then a Gauss rife.

In regards to level 3 gear, there is enough variety and bizarreness in the level 2 rules that I really don't see the need. On a personal level if level 3 is introduced I'll probably lose interest in the game, I'm not a huge fan of the level 3 settings or rules.

[Mason Ventris]

Really? Really?

Seriously, cmon this is what I'm talking about. If ya don't like the "ridiculous" things of level 2 and 3 then just play on servers that doesnt allow it. If that's not possible.....I guess that's your problem. In a game set in the FAR distant future some people seem to think that innovation and invention are ridiculous. Really? Do you think that things should sit still and stagnate? Things must move forward. Adapt to change.

[WithSilentWings]

Mason Ventris, on 04 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Really? Really?

Seriously, cmon this is what I'm talking about. If ya don't like the "ridiculous" things of level 2 and 3 then just play on servers that doesnt allow it. If that's not possible.....I guess that's your problem. In a game set in the FAR distant future some people seem to think that innovation and invention are ridiculous. Really? Do you think that things should sit still and stagnate? Things must move forward. Adapt to change.

You're missing the point. It's not that we can't adapt to change, it's that everyone standing as far away from each other as possible, popping up and shooting a giant volley that kills in one shot is INCREDIBLY BORING compared to the way the game could work if we don't introduce such technology. I am not sure if you played Battletech in the years before the Mechwarrior games, but the Clans and the later tech did not exist, which lead to more drawn out battles with more "in your face" fighting. I can totally understand why that would make a better "Mechwarrior" experience vs essentially turning it in to any other FPS game out there.

[EDMW CSN]

Bear in mind there is no more Levels / Tiers for tech.
Just introductory, Tournie Legal, Advanced and Experimental for the truly wonky stuff.

Personally I hope we won't reach Experimental tech, that involves stuff like Blue Shield (yes a working energy shield), Void Signature Systems, Null + Chameleon etc. However tournie legal tech have will have the IS getting the Heavy PPCs and the Clans.... The HAG40.

[Gigaton]

Mason Ventris, on 04 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Seriously, cmon this is what I'm talking about. If ya don't like the "ridiculous" things of level 2 and 3 then just play on servers that doesnt allow it. If that's not possible.....I guess that's your problem. In a game set in the FAR distant future some people seem to think that innovation and invention are ridiculous. Really?

Actually, if you look at the technological advancement of 2500-2780 (slow advancement) and 2780-3025 (slow advancement for Clans, heavy stagnation for IS) then the tech boom especially during the '60s starts to border on ridiculous. The need to cram new shiny stuff and new rules in the game without taking liberty to time skip few generations was one of the reasons for the later fluff stagnation IMO.

Edited by Gigaton, 04 April 2012 - 06:07 AM.

[Felbombling]

And it would all come out in one book... BOOM... new tech... deal with it.

[00dlez]

Mason Ventris, on 04 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Really? Really?

Seriously, cmon this is what I'm talking about. If ya don't like the "ridiculous" things of level 2 and 3 then just play on servers that doesnt allow it. If that's not possible.....I guess that's your problem. In a game set in the FAR distant future some people seem to think that innovation and invention are ridiculous. Really? Do you think that things should sit still and stagnate? Things must move forward. Adapt to change.

Maybe it is you who should play on servers that allow advanced tech, and if not... I guess that's your problem. MW4 was ruined by having jump sniping boats of advanced tech. It drained the fun, engaging tactics for more than just a few people and killed the game. If you want extreme tech, MW4 has everything imaginable already, go play that.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Well we now know we have a version of the MW4 mechlab with hardpoints. JJ's are only allowed on chassis/variants that have them, so the Katapult can be a jump sniper.

[Exilyth]

As long as there's no techmix (clan weapons on IS mechs or vice versa), I'm ok with advanced tech. I'm just hoping we don't get arrow IV nukes.

[Garth Erlam]

I can tell you right now that David is a master of balance, and there's no way we'll have the hilarious stand-off wars of yesteryear. Except for Jenner bait Catapults firing from afar.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree with keeping to puretech. As for advanced tech - some Level 2 (it's easier to say) is theoretically available now. Would people accept its house specific distribution if they really want to stick to canon. IMHO we won't get Level 2 until sometime after launch.

[Listless Nomad]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 04 April 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Would people accept its house specific distribution if they really want to stick to canon?

I think that raises an interesting point. The Devs haven't really expounded upon what the differences in joining the various factions would mean. Having access to only certain types of tech/variants, if they join that house would make choosing a faction more interesting for new players. I hope there is more to it that different color flags and 10% off certain mech chassis'

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Garth Erlam, on 04 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I can tell you right now that David is a master of balance, and there's no way we'll have the hilarious stand-off wars of yesteryear. Except for Jenner bait Catapults firing from afar.

Only somewhat hilarious in retrospect Garth. I have every confidence that it will be well balanced when it comes to open Beta. Just as I am certain that someone will find a way to beat it (if only slightly) within the first day or so. After all there will be an awful lot of us trying to do so

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Listless Nomad, on 04 April 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

I think that raises an interesting point. The Devs haven't really expounded upon what the differences in joining the various factions would mean. Having access to only certain types of tech/variants, if they join that house would make choosing a faction more interesting for new players. I hope there is more to it that different color flags and 10% off certain mech chassis'

Can you imagine the outcry if they did though? After all practically no one but the Capellans have the Raven- which is why I don't think we'll see it in at the start. More to the point although the tech was there, it was only available to a limited extent - and certainly not to any jobbing mechwarrior. Retrofitting didn't really happen until well after the Clan's invaded. It was Comstars SDLF tech and combined arms tactics that stopped theClan's.

[warner2]

I'm curious, what do people think was wrong with the long range weapons available to you in Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries? I have to say, I only joined the on-line scene in time for Mercenaries, I didn't play the earlier MW4 games on-line.

In my experience of MW4 Mercenaries, which was a good couple of years in the MWL and NBT leagues, I don't remember being involved in any "hilarious stand-off wars".

I was involved in games that were played at long, medium or short-range depending on conditions (the map, open or with cover, total tonnage, and so on) or the inclination of the people playing (I was in a unit in NBT that often liked to try to force a fast, mid-range fight even on open maps more suited to range).

So long range, mid-range, short-range were all viable given the right conditions in my experience. In-particular, if it was an open map and you took short-range weapons you got toasted if the other team had long-range and the ability to use it, and rightly so. Likewise if it was urban and you too all long-range weapons and the other team had short-range and the ability to use them, you got toasted and rightly so.

So what's wrong with different ranges being viable under different circumstances?

[Listless Nomad]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 04 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Can you imagine the outcry if they did though? After all practically no one but the Capellans have the Raven- which is why I don't think we'll see it in at the start. More to the point although the tech was there, it was only available to a limited extent - and certainly not to any jobbing mechwarrior. Retrofitting didn't really happen until well after the Clan's invaded. It was Comstars SDLF tech and combined arms tactics that stopped theClan's.

That's part of what makes choosing hard - and makes the Capellans actually attractive for a change. It could be done on a much broader scale however. Say for example if you wanted LBX autocannons - you had to be Davion, and if you wanted Gauss rifles you had to be Kurita. Maybe you could make them available to other houses but at +200% cost in c-bills. I'd just like to see individuality in the houses, and not just the same mechs/weapons everywhere with different paintjobs. If at release we don't have enough house specific mechs to do the job, perhaps limiting tech could make them distinctive for a time.

warner__, on 04 April 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm curious, what do people think was wrong with the long range weapons available to you in Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries? I have to say, I only joined the on-line scene in time for Mercenaries, I didn't play the earlier MW4 games on-line.

In my experience of MW4 Mercenaries, which was a good couple of years in the MWL and NBT leagues, I don't remember being involved in any "hilarious stand-off wars".

I was involved in games that were played at long, medium or short-range depending on conditions (the map, open or with cover, total tonnage, and so on) or the inclination of the people playing (I was in a unit in NBT that often liked to try to force a fast, mid-range fight even on open maps more suited to range).

So long range, mid-range, short-range were all viable given the right conditions in my experience. In-particular, if it was an open map and you took short-range weapons you got toasted if the other team had long-range and the ability to use it, and rightly so. Likewise if it was urban and you too all long-range weapons and the other team had short-range and the ability to use them, you got toasted and rightly so.

So what's wrong with different ranges being viable under different circumstances?

I think what was being discussed would be Arrow IV wars where both sides were lined up with nothing but Arrow IV missiles or Long Tom artillery and would just pound one another, making the game boring and one dimensional. I've experienced those situations myself and they sucked - but I can only guess as to what they were referring to here.

Edited by Listless Nomad, 04 April 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

warner__, on 04 April 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

In my experience of MW4 Mercenaries, which was a good couple of years in the MWL and NBT leagues, I don't remember being involved in any "hilarious stand-off wars".

I was alluding to 'Pop-tarting' being an matter of not inconsequential anger.