55 replies to this topic

[Applejack]

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

The invasion was start in 3051, and Wolf exile happens in 3057.
The only one in IS who had access to clan tech was Wolf Dragoons, and they wasnt share that technology with anyone, even though betray clans.

Sorry, your right (contradicting the wrong point though, as I'm talking about Star League tech not Clan tech)... but the fact remains: Star League (not Clan, like you said) tech was in the Inner Sphere. One way or another, units got a hold of them and merchants sold them.

also: didn't the Eridani Light Horse have some Star League tech?

Edited by Applejack, 02 November 2011 - 11:27 AM.

[SnagaDance]

It was the Helm memory core that contained the information on all those lost (weapon) systems. Around 3035 the Inner Sphere was finally able to recreate some of that tech in limited numbers for the first time since the fall of the Star League.

The Draconis Combine got the Helm data rather late (Duke Ricol held it back to wait for an opportune moment) but luckily for House Kurita the made a deal with Comstar who supplied them with Star League era mechs before the War of 3038. Supposedly stripped, though through the machinations of the Kurita spy Sharilar Mori quite number were handed over with their advanced tech.

Helm memory core + reverse engineering Star League tech = The Draconis combine quickly catching up.

The Clans didn't face this weaponry in the beginning because the came in on a weak spot, centered on the Free Rasalhague Republic (which did not have this advanced tech). The FRR seperated the Federated Commonwealth and their enemies from the Draconis combine in that part of the universe. Consequently, the advanced tech was with units at the borders of their traditional enemies. At the soon to be Clan front were only units with old tech. Nothing more was needed, or so they thought....

[TheRulesLawyer]

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Only if you using gamepad :trollface:

Eh? Pin point accuracy enables a great many techniques in MW that aren't options in the board game. Options that have never been sufficiently dealt with. Or do you like people going around and legging all the time? 'cause that's not really an option in the board game.

[Paladin1]

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Pulses was invented by clans, and before invasion wasnt knowed by IS at all.
Speaking of classic BT yes, in board game it was "absolute" weapon, best mechs was counted on amount pulses they've had.
Speaking of simulator though, in MW3 pulses was probably worst example of weapon, as ability to putt all you damage instantly at the point you aiming, was much more important rather then doing 1/2 damage of your pulse laser all other the mech you targeting.

What was the most awsome mech in MW3? Thats right, Blackhawk Prime. With his 12 EM medium Lasers he was able to rip off the leg almost instantly out of any heavy mechs, and assault mech was able to stand against Blackhwak just a few second longer.

So speaking of pulse lasers in sim, they actualy should do even more damage then standard lasers, but only if you able to keep the pulsing beem on the target. So then it will be somewhat more preferable weapon against slow huge assault mechs, but almost useless against light and med mechs.

Actually, pulse lasers were invented by the Star League. The Clans refined them, but the weapon themselves are actually very old and were in use by all six Houses before the fall of the Star League and Kerensky's cowardice Exodus. Since then they have become lostech, only existing within the ranks of ComStar, but as others have noted they have recently been rediscovered but are not very wide spread at this point.

[Frantic Pryde]

Yea, it think mw3...although probably the best MW game so far...had the worst pulse lasers.

The clans didn't invent pulse lasers. Pulse lasers where invented by the star league. The clans simply improved them. In 3049 pulse lasers where already poping up here and there but not much.

According to the battletech rulebook a pulse laser fires 3 times in a 10 second battletech game turn. In fact, the old maximum tech book had a rule that you could negate the accuracy bonus and fire all 3 bolts at your target. I think this simple increased rate of fire might be a good solution depending on how they balance rate of fires and such.

[Paladin1]

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

The invasion was start in 3051, and Wolf exile happens in 3057.
The only one in IS who had access to clan tech was Wolf Dragoons, and they wasnt share that technology with anyone, even though betray clans.

One point here, the Clan Invasion officially began on August 1st, 3049. Coincidentally, August 1st 2012 was mentioned as being the same as August 1st, 3049 in game terms by the Devs, so I suspect that we've just been given a hint as to the release date.

You're right about the Wolf-Falcon war, but you're wrong again about the only ones having Clan tech in the Inner Sphere prior to the Invasion. There's the matter of Cranston Snord, formerly of Clan Goliath Scorpion, as well as the matter of The Blood, aka Clan Wolverine, who were hiding within ComStar at the time.

[pbiggz]

In battletech the reason pulse lasers are so accurate is rather complex.
Many think that the reticule in the cockpit is used to aim, and in many respects, it is, but one must understand, it isnt the pilot that shoots, its the mech. The pilot uses the reticule to essentially designate the target, and then the mech's computer does it's best to fire the weapons and hit the target.
When this is applied to the pulse laser, those fractions of a second when the laser stops firing allow the computer to re-compensate for the enemy target's movement before the laser fires the next pulse. THIS is why it is so accurate.

[ironhammer]

I like the cone of fire effect of World of Tanks and this seems fairly familiar. It allows you to aim, without complete certainty that you will hit. As long as it's a nice gaussian distribution I feel that this would be the best method. Having multiple overlapping colored circles for weapon systems, to represent different accuracies would also make for a wonderful chaotic twist. SRM / LRM splatter due to wide cone, AC shots start good but have big recoil that takes a long time to go back to center, Lasers have a good tight cone that doesn't change too much per shot, etc.

I'd still love for some game to get physical attacks right beyond the ram. Mmm... Hatchetman.

@pbiggz: So what if pulse lasers started with a standard laser reticule for their type and then -shrunk- during firing unlike a recoil weapon that grows?

Edited by ironhammer, 02 November 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[Wyrm]

VYCanis, on 02 November 2011 - 11:12 AM, said:

i don't really like the idea of lasers having a cone of fire. just makes it seem like someone mounted the weapon with bungee cords instead of bolts. Lasers should be laser accurate. Getting them lined up properly and keeping them on target should be the hard part. If i fire a laser 3 times in a row, and i haven't moved, i want that laser to go to the same place, its the expectation of using a laser, wiff factor of the tabletop not withstanding.

Any weapons mounted at the arms should be able co-aimed besides of torso possition. Thats why mechs do have arms after all.

Edited by Wyrm, 02 November 2011 - 12:09 PM.

[VYCanis]

tabletop had random distribution of hits because it is dice based. It has to be that way.

but this is a real time game with the goal to simulate the effect of piloting this fancy shamncy sci fi vehicle, and skill really needs to matter, but also expectation of the player.

just having cone of fire to the extent that you are missing as often as on tabletop, and unable to actually target anything in particular would be ludicrous.

Here you have this advanced vehicle from the year 3000+ and it can't even shoot straight, who would want to play that? I agree that ease of focus fire has been a problem, but just making everything inaccurate is not the way to go.

[Wyrm]

Applejack, on 02 November 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

Sorry, your right (contradicting the wrong point though, as I'm talking about Star League tech not Clan tech)... but the fact remains: Star League (not Clan, like you said) tech was in the Inner Sphere. One way or another, units got a hold of them and merchants sold them.

also: didn't the Eridani Light Horse have some Star League tech?

The only thing lS had before invasion, was thermonuclear reactors. Not even XL engine. And IS wasnt been able to reverse engineered them. So those very few Atlases they've had left, was like an elite mech for them. As would be one destroyed complitely, they wouldnt be able rebuild it again. Other IS mechs had simple nucrear reactors.
They was able to rebuild most of other tech, like lasers, LRMs, ACs, and so on, and yes, they was the same as it was in SL time. But, all improvements of lasers, engines, PPCs and so on was invented in clans, about 70-100 years after Kerenski leave the IS.
And so IS not just couldn't build anything based on those technologies, they couldn't even get them at all, as they simply wasnt aware of Clans.

BTW IS also wasnt been able to to build new jumpships, as technology was lost too all but COMSTAR. And warships (jumpships with weapons) also was invention of clans. As they not only had the technology of jumpships, but upgraded this technology dramaticly.

Edited by Wyrm, 02 November 2011 - 12:27 PM.

[Wyrm]

SnagaDance, on 02 November 2011 - 11:26 AM, said:

At the soon to be Clan front were only units with old tech. Nothing more was needed, or so they thought....

And thats how it was.
Clans had 'lost' first invasion because of 'political failure' on Tokkaido. It was realy stupid for the clans to expect honor and absens of cheating from COMSTAR during the Trial.
Before that invasion was like an 'heated knife through the butter'. Clans had thier losses, but they was nothing compared to losses of IS.

[SquareSphere]

My suggestion would be it takes ER and Standard Lasers 1 full second of discharge to deliver full damage. Pulse can fully discharge full damage in .5 seconds. Less time having to be on target = more accuracy

[Skoll]

Pulse lasers will be more trouble than they're worth in this game, unless they're extremely costly or hard to obtain.

[Owl Cutter]

I am hoping standard lasers are either continuous fire or short bursts, and pulse lasers fire pulses. It makes sense to me, since then you'd get better damage concentration and effective accuracy with pulse lasers- besides, you know, the whole thing with them being called pulse lasers.

[Wyrm]

SquareSphere, on 02 November 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

My suggestion would be it takes ER and Standard Lasers 1 full second of discharge to deliver full damage. Pulse can fully discharge full damage in .5 seconds. Less time having to be on target = more accuracy

I will vote for ERs having isntant damage in one shot, while pulses having like 5 quick shots in 0.5s burst. The full pulse laser burst should outdamage the ERs in about 20%.
Thus ERs will be more of the sniper choise, delivering all of it damage to aiming point... or miss complitely
While pulses will be used both for hiting small very fast targets, probably not even fully damaging it (as some of the burst shots could miss). Or for outdamaging large slower targets at short-medium range, by delivering full burst in single location, whould that be an leg, or left/right torso.

You might say of course that it'll be the same as autocannons, but i'll say that ACs should have another tactical feature - the stoping power. Which on hiting should be able both slow down the mech (if hited in front of him), disrupting the aim, or even make mech fall on the ground.

[fearfactory]

I'm honestly hoping that all beam weapons function like they did in MechWarrior 2 (obviously with damage and heat balance). In MechWarrior 4 beam weapons are horrible. Not enough damage for heat output... unless you're in an assault spamming PPC's and Large Lasers.

[IS Wolf]

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Pulses was invented by clans, and before invasion wasnt knowed by IS at all.

*Buzzer sound*
Wrong, invented by the Star League in 2450.
The technology to make them was lost during the Succession Wars, till the discovery of the Helm Memory Core.

The Clans have simply perfected them.

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Speaking of classic BT yes, in board game it was "absolute" weapon, best mechs was counted on amount pulses they've had.

Again not true. The Clan ones, yeah they were good. The Inner Sphere ones? Not so much.
And then there was the small pulse laser. Only really good for dealing with PBI imnsho. Otherwise, you might as well install two ER Small Lasers for twice the punch.

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

The only thing lS had before invasion, was thermonuclear reactors. Not even XL engine. And IS wasnt been able to reverse engineered them. So those very few Atlases they've had left, was like an elite mech for them. As would be one destroyed complitely, they wouldnt be able rebuild it again. Other IS mechs had simple nucrear reactors.
They was able to rebuild most of other tech, like lasers, LRMs, ACs, and so on, and yes, they was the same as it was in SL time. But, all improvements of lasers, engines, PPCs and so on was invented in clans, about 70-100 years after Kerenski leave the IS.
And so IS not just couldn't build anything based on those technologies, they couldn't even get them at all, as they simply wasnt aware of Clans.

BTW IS also wasnt been able to to build new jumpships, as technology was lost too all but COMSTAR. And warships (jumpships with weapons) also was invention of clans. As they not only had the technology of jumpships, but upgraded this technology dramaticly.

Again, incorrect. XL engines were rediscovered by the Lyrans in 3035. That's from the CBT Techmanuel published in 2007.

The Dragoons also knew how to make Clan style XL engines, till they ran out of resources, and it's also the reason why they invented the Light Fusion Reactor to compensate for this and not be stuck with the inferior regular XL versions.

The ER PPC was invented by the Terran Hegemony in 2760, and they were reintroduced to the IS by the DC in 3037. ER Large Laser? Also invented by the Terran Hegemony in 2620, rediscovered by the DC in 3037 as well. Same goes for the Small, Medium and Large Pulse Lasers.

Warships? Try the Fox Corvette. Designed in 3050/3051, and the first IS warship in over 200y. Only reason why it wasn't done till 3058, was because of Terrorist attacks upon the Shipyards, and delays of the parts by Comstar, who probably also had a hand in the terrorist attacks, and if not them than the Wobblies..

Also again, the Clans didn't invent warships. The Terran Alliance did way back in 2300 with the Dreadnought. The Alliance eventually became the Hegemony, which would eventually lead to the Star League.

And even then the various Successor States did field their own warships during the SL Era. The New Syrtis carrier of the FS, the DC had the Samarkand, the Lyrans had the Tharkad and the list just goes on and on.

[Paladin1]

Wyrm, on 02 November 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

The only thing lS had before invasion, was thermonuclear reactors. Not even XL engine. And IS wasnt been able to reverse engineered them. So those very few Atlases they've had left, was like an elite mech for them. As would be one destroyed complitely, they wouldnt be able rebuild it again. Other IS mechs had simple nucrear reactors.
They was able to rebuild most of other tech, like lasers, LRMs, ACs, and so on, and yes, they was the same as it was in SL time. But, all improvements of lasers, engines, PPCs and so on was invented in clans, about 70-100 years after Kerenski leave the IS.
And so IS not just couldn't build anything based on those technologies, they couldn't even get them at all, as they simply wasnt aware of Clans.

BTW IS also wasnt been able to to build new jumpships, as technology was lost too all but COMSTAR. And warships (jumpships with weapons) also was invention of clans. As they not only had the technology of jumpships, but upgraded this technology dramaticly.

Ummm, no. This entire post is completely wrong. Please, go read up on the actual canon history of the Star League era, Kerensky's Exodus and the Succession Wars. As it stands now, I'm not even sure where to start with your post other than to say it's wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

[Havoc2]

fearfactory, on 02 November 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'm honestly hoping that all beam weapons function like they did in MechWarrior 2 (obviously with damage and heat balance). In MechWarrior 4 beam weapons are horrible. Not enough damage for heat output... unless you're in an assault spamming PPC's and Large Lasers.

This.

Except hopefully without the bugs of the pulse lasers in MW2 and MW2: Mercs.