149 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Aegis Kleais™, on 27 February 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

I kind of find these threads a bit humorous as I do unsettling.

It basically comes down to the community having so little finite or tangible "goods" from the developers, that you start to see a lot of "what is your fave" or "what would you do" scenarios get played out which go into confined options rather than utilize the open-nature of the topic.

In short, it means the community is bored. I hope GDC KO's us out of our stupor with a nice 1-2 punch of new Mech goodness.

I am with Aegis on this one. I vote we close the Forums between Reveal Wednesdays, and only open again during the GDC. No point in keeping them open in between really. The "Chatty Cathies" have had their day in the sun.

[Aegis Kleais]

MaddMaxx, on 27 February 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I am with Aegis on this one. I vote we close the Forums between Reveal Wednesdays, and only open again during the GDC. No point in keeping them open in between really. The "Chatty Cathies" have had their day in the sun.

lol. Smart-arse.

[MaddMaxx]

Aegis Kleais™, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

lol. Smart-arse.

thanks, I resemble that remark.

[Kip Wilson]

autogyro, on 27 February 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

You are assuming, of course, that a light 'Mech has less value than an Assault mech. The whole concept and promotion of role warfare is that a any class of 'Mech is just as useful, and implicitly, the loss of one class is not necessarily weighted towards tonnage or tier as in other games and can be overcome by the cunning and strategy of the surviving Mechwarriors.

In other words, if you are down an Atlas in a game it shouldn't cripple you as much as if you lost a top MM Lowe.

Secondly, playing higher tier tanks in WoT is not substantially different than in lower tiers except for light scouts. Role considerations play a much greater influence on playing style in MWO, and I would expect that the play style will vary so greatly that there will always be a learning curve when piloting an Assault over say, a Light.

The positive of allowing anyone to start on any 'Mech is that, very quickly, a player can learn the nuances on his/her favourite 'Mech and be a much greater use on the battlefield in subsequent games.

I'm not discounting lighter 'mech's at all. If fact I make mention of them in an earlier post. They have great value and a good driver of a light or medium has full potential to be OP. What I am saying is that every 'mech is good within its role. But the role of the assault 'mechs is Assault. To get in there and do the heaviest fighting, Swapping out a 100 ton Atlas for a 25 ton Commando and expect it to do the same amount of carnage isn't going to work.

If you have an Altas on your team and it gets killed, it really should cripple the team because that's its job, to bring forth mass amounts of firepower. If the devs start making lights/mediums/heavies that can take on an assault class 'mech with better than a snowball's chance in hades, then the whole role of the assault class has just been nerfed.

If every player has the option for an assault class mech right out of the gate, two things are going to happen. First, we will see games that are mostly assault class. New players will take an assault just because they can and also because they dont understand the aspect of roll warfare in the game. They just want the biggest badest mech to kill things with.

Secondly, with being able to get into any mech you want, there's no chance a player might realize they are good at something. If you can buy an assault mech while skipping the other 'mechs entirely, there's little chance where you find you really enjoy playing lights or mediums or heavies or that their rolls better suit your playing style.

Even if you go by the poll numbers on this thread, the people that want this option are the ones that want to start in heavy/assaults. Which means we will have teams consisting of 45.24% heavies/assaults (the yes vote at the time of this posting). That many big 'mechs on a team will nerf the whole role warfare aspect of the game because there wont be enough room on the team for scouts, strikers, arty and so forth.

Ill post more later but got to drop the kiddo of at school.

[Mautty the Bobcat]

Corsair114, on 27 February 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

1 requisition form (gets you 1 'mech of your choice at start up)

and

2-3 million C-bills. Covers expenses, modifications, and whatever other tomfoolery the devs implement.

There, fixed and I support my modified quote. Having a 'voucher' to pick one of the 12 original chassis would be the ideal solution, then you get a couple million C-bills for modifications and early repair costs if needed. The voucher should stay as only being able to pick 1 of the 12 original mechs though, so once new mechs start being added, you'll still have the rookies piloting those same 12 starter mechs right out of the gate.

Kip Wilson, on 27 February 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

If you have an Altas on your team and it gets killed, it really should cripple the team because that's its job, to bring forth mass amounts of firepower. If the devs start making lights/mediums/heavies that can take on an assault class 'mech with better than a snowball's chance in hades, then the whole role of the assault class has just been nerfed.

Incorrect, if you have the skills to pilot a light or medium effectively, even an Atlas can become just another obstacle.

Edited by Mautty the Bobcat, 27 February 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Felix Dante]

Kip Wilson, on 27 February 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

If every player has the option for an assault class mech right out of the gate, two things are going to happen. First, we will see games that are mostly assault class. New players will take an assault just because they can and also because they dont understand the aspect of roll warfare in the game. They just want the biggest badest mech to kill things with.

I disagree entirely...
I for one will avoid Assault entirely if I can, but will want to start in a Heavy (Catapult) then try the Dragon and then try the Jenner.
I would even say the majority of possible players seem to me to want to play Commandos or Jenners anyway (or Urbanmechs!).

Assaults are generally too slow and an easy target for fast mechs...

I can guarantee you those who play Assaults out the gate will be in a severe disadvantage against anything faster (which is everything so far) and the only bonus they will have is the fact they will have enough armor to maybe survive long enough to get a good shot on a faster mech.

Every design has it's bonuses and minuses. The balance will find itself as they perfect the game concept of "Team Warfare" before launch.
Anybody who just uses a company of assaults will find themselves out-distanced and surrounded quickly. I don't even have to mention that if a good company commander who doesn't use artillery against so many slow moving targets multiple times is an idot.

Edited by Felix Dante, 27 February 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Kip Wilson]

Kip Wilson, on 27 February 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I'm not discounting lighter 'mech's at all. If fact I make mention of them in an earlier post. They have great value and a good driver of a light or medium has full potential to be OP.

Im not sure if you are missing this line in my previous post but it pretty much echos what you Maurty and Felix are saying. I don't have a problem with light or mediums and in fact, if they include an Assassin or Phoenix Hawk they would most likely be my main 'mechs. But you guys are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about rookie pilots in assaults and your comparing them to veteren pilots in light/mediums. Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule but I'm not discussing who can kill who, I'm discussing weather or not the average player who signs up for MWO will take an assault class if given the option and how that affects team balance.

IMO I think letting rookie pilots in assault 'mechs a bad idea. Even in canon, rookie pilots very rarely get an assault class 'mech and only then its usually because you're a prince or some other important figure, even then Victor Davion only got a 80 ton assault. They are just to dang valuable and rare. All I am saying though is pilots should have a little experience under their belt before hoping into an atlas. I'm not talking about a lot but just enough to start understanding the game, maps, controls and quirks of a battlemech so they aren't a complete noob when their team needs them the most.

[Morashtak]

Seeing how slow the Assaults are I can see much whining on the forums about how OP everything else is because no one ever gets close enough for the Assault to alpha strike it (which is the winning strategy when going against an Assault with anything smaller, of course).

Once the word gets around players will gradually migrate to a 'Mech that suits their temperament and style. We may even see a shortage of Assaults in the future as players trade off firepower for speed and mobility. 100 tons of slowness isn't fun on every type of map (or I hope not).

[Fluffinator]

Morashtak, on 27 February 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

100 tons of slowness isn't fun on every type of map (or I hope not).

Not every assult class mech is 100 tons and slow
example
BLR-6X - This version uses an experimental XXL Engine to boost ground speed to 86km/h. An Endo Steel skeleton provides enough weight savings to allow this BattleMaster to carry an ER PPC, Heavy PPC, Streak SRM-6, and a pair of ER Medium Lasers. Sixteen Double Heat Sinks keep the temperature manageable. BV (2.0) = 2,029

ZEU-X - The first of what is commonly referred to as the Zeus X, (which types are noted for the distinctive "fins" extending from their shoulders) the ZEU-X was a variant of the Zeus that uses Experimental Technology to push the envelope of the design. The 'Mech was built using a Composite chassis which weighed half as much, but was only half as strong as a normal internal structure. The 'Mech was also armored with both normal armor and Reactive Armor on its limbs. The 'Mech was armed with an LB-X Autocannon/20 as its primary weapon, backed up by an MRM-30 launcher. For close combat, the Zeus had two Medium X-Pulse Lasers. Finally, for added speed, the 'Mech was built using a XXL engine which weighed only seventeen and a half tons, giving the 'Mech a maximum speed of 86.4 kph. BV (1.0) = 1,471, BV (2.0) = 1,902

^{Yes I know the year is a bad example}

Edited by Fluffinator, 27 February 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[Morashtak]

Fluffinator, on 27 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Not every assult class mech is 100 tons and slow
example
BLR-6X - This version uses an experimental XXL Engine to boost ground speed to 86km/h. An Endo Steel skeleton provides enough weight savings to allow this BattleMaster to carry an ER PPC, Heavy PPC, Streak SRM-6, and a pair of ER Medium Lasers. Sixteen Double Heat Sinks keep the temperature manageable. BV (2.0) = 2,029
^{Yes I know the year is a bad example}

Duuurrrrr.......

[AlanEsh]

Toothman, on 27 February 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, and if this was a single player game I would agree with you. But as a team based game, jumping into any Assault class 'mech and not having any idea of how to pilot it or knowing the map you're on or anything else that helps your team is doing a great disservice to your fellow team members. They are counting on the Assaults to hold the line while they can do their jobs. If an Assault pilot is inexperienced or just to selfish to care, it turns a fun game into an unpleasant experience for everybody.


I play WoT also and the insta heavies can be annoying although anyone who's worked their way up can generally beat the insta tanks. Its also quite clear that the player base will be looking for which mechs are "op" and head right for those. With little or no knowlege they will automatically assume that bigger is better giving us fights with a disproportionate number of assault class mechs. I'd have to vote for making people earn them.

Are you Kip Wilson's second account? lol

You're both assuming the Assault mech will be more valuable to the team than other classes, and if you're basing this on your WoT experiences, I can understand the sentiment.

Facts are, however, the devs have stated they will be doing their best to make all mech types valuable to the team, and not let any particular class dominate the field. If they succeed in this, then your worries are for naught. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until something more substantial than World of Tanks misgivings is raised as an argument.

[GD26]

10 mils C-Bills sound reasonable.

I’ve answered “possibly if…” at the second question as I feel that the way of the grinding towards revenue will play a major factor.

I mean, how many C-Bills one gets per victorious battle. What about a defeat? That sort of thing.

Edited by GD26, 28 February 2012 - 09:16 AM.

[Arnold Carns]

GD26, on 28 February 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

10 mils C-Bills sound reasonable.

I’ve answered “possibly if…” at the second question as I feel that the way of the grinding towards revenue will play a major factor.

I mean, how many C-Bills one gets per victorious battle. What about a defeat? That sort of thing.

Why do you whisper? Any reason behind that small font size?
You should take into account that some of the guys around witnessed the time period when the BT boardgame first hit the stores.
Some would probably be troubled with shortsightness.

[Wyzak]

I initally voted Catapult in the poll, but based on some of the comments on this thread I now feel it was wrong to vote for a 65 ton mech. I think it would be more appropriate to have the vast majority of the player base start in lights and qualify for other tonnages later. You can buy a heavy mech with your c-bills if you really want to, but the monthly maintenance fee (a-la MW2 mercs) is higher then you are earning when you first start, so it might not have been a good idea.

[MaddMaxx]

Arnold Carns, on 28 February 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Why do you whisper? Any reason behind that small font size?
You should take into account that some of the guys around witnessed the time period when the BT boardgame first hit the stores.
Some would probably be troubled with shortsightness.

Yah! I wish his font was GD 26....

[El Loco]

I can imagine maintenance for a machine like a Raven wouldn't be much cheaper than that for a light assault, if at all. It really depends on how expensive the equipment is you field... not the tonnage of your 'Mech. A widely distributed chassis should always be rather easy and cheap to maintain. Same for weapons and equipment, medium lasers should be really cheap as they are the most frequently used weapon.

Anyways... I strongly disagree with everyone who wants players "earning" their weight class. I know I don't feel comfortable with anything in the assault class, neither with most heavies. If someone thinks he or she needs to pilot an Atlas right from the start, I say let them! If they made a poor choice they'll end up with switching to a different 'Mech eventually, having lost a fair amount of XP on a "useless" 'Mech. To prevent picking the wrong weight class, we need a good tutorial for each of them. Let everyone gain some insights into how it feels to pilot a scout 'Mech or an assault... maybe even have them see how each of the differrent roles might work for them. Who knows how many defenders to be are actually amazing scouts or commanders? Or how many of those Atlas junkies would tear apart anything presented to them when piloting a Centurion.

[Mondo Mondo]

Doesn't seem like a fair system.

I'd pick the Jenner since it's the fastest of the bunch.

[Benjamin SteinerDavion]

I like this whole ideal, BUT nobody should be able to start with an Assault class at the start. I believe that it should be limited for new players, to say the first twenty games/twenty kills. Then, the choice can open up to every mech.

[Gwenaelle Focht]

Aegis Kleais™, on 27 February 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Well, it would have to be understood by the community that EVERYONE (Assault, Heavies, etc.) are all starting this game from the ground-floor. We're gaining experience in the game with every passing moment, so there will be a lot of Assaults who can't fight worth a lick and Scouts out there (un)successfully taking on 4 Mechs by themselves.

Exactly, this would guarantee freedom of choice and some people will have to learn the hard way that piloting an Atlas may just not be of much service to them and their respective unit, and at the end of the day they have invested precious experience points, C-bills and lots of time for a game approach that is not up to their liking or talent. I think it would be great if everyone will have to go through a learning process (probably even the hotshots around here or those who think they are such, because the controlling/steering of the mechs may deviate quite a bit from previous Mechwarrior/Battletech games and even the pros may need time to get used to playing MWO, believe or not).

Also, 10,000,000 sounds quite reasonable regarding the long-term game perspective of MWO (for instance, clan invasion and availability of selected Clan mechs at some stage) because a lovely Timber Wolf/Mad Cat is not going to be available for starters at any stage costing 24,233,124 C-bills for a heavy clan mech and even a lighter Nova/Black Hawk medium clan mech falls into the category 'unaffordable' (at 11,586,250 C-bills) for beginners (these will indeed have to be earned, why not leave the earning/grinding principle once the omnimechs get introduced?). Weight is definitely not always an indicator of mech power and this becomes even more of an impact factor the more people/groups get involved in battle at the same time (a one on one battle strategy may work now and then, but it is is often due to despair).

Starting with an Atlas is not realistic as a result of family rank or wealth, part of an inheritance, or discovery of a Star League cache? In addition, I think the poll indicates quite clearly that the majority of players would not want to take the chance of investing their start-up capital entirely in a 'naked' Atlas and rather plan on a cheaper mech model in order to have an easier time paying for repair/maintenance (or even loss as a result of total destruction which is also quite possible in a heavy armoured and armed but slow mech such as the Atlas) and further mech upgrades. Last but not least, I reckon it will add spice and diversity to the game if all types of mechs can be seen on the battlefield, from light to assault.

[Thomas Covenant]

Ha, I thought this was an official staff thread, and I was like, pretty clever Piranah, pretty clever.

If they make role warfare work it will be fine, a noob in an Atlas is still a poorly equipped noob, so it wont break the rpg element.