67 replies to this topic

[TimberJon]

Wait a second. This is not a suggestion, this is a discussion for something that may already be in the game.

I don't know that I would want to "flush" or vent any of my coolant. You wouldn't do that in your vehicle would you? The concept is more like a water mist system for an turbo's intercooler. Is that cheating? Nobody flushed coolant in the novels. And tactically, I don't think you should be given freebie "cooling" tokens. You should be forced to learn to manage your heat and maneuver and fire accordingly. Go stand in water, schedule the attack when it rains. Etc..

[MaddMaxx]

SI The Joker, on 27 February 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

As long as I get the drive the mushroom car... I mean Mech, we're cool.

Leave the repeatable coolant flush out. Design a balanced mech that can function effectively on the battlefield. If you run hot... get to water.

As for a coolant pod... 10 seconds of +200% cooling... Hmmmm...

Cut the time in half to 5 seconds and make it 1 time use, and I could compromise on that, I think.

The Pods weigh 1T, take up 1Crit space, are 1 use units and explode like ammo bins when hit. That is not enough draw back already?

[Strum Wealh]

=Outlaw=, on 27 February 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Coolant pods weren't around during this time period, and were rare technology even when they were FYI

Coolant pods were (canonically) just being put into production by the Federated Commonwealth in 3049, so they would just be becoming available (that is, still rare and expensive) around the point of MWO's game-start.

=Outlaw=, on 27 February 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Any kind of Coolant systems negates much of penalties of using high heat energy weapons and throws the balance in their favor... even if its just a one time deal. Unless we also add "ammo bursts" that replenished ammo for ballistic and missile weapons. Maybe also armor bursts to get more armor, speed bursts, jump bursts, burst bursts...

If implemented in accordance with their canonical equivalents, they come with a host of drawbacks and risks:

• They are single-use, effective for only 10 second intervals (one TT turn), and can only be used one-at-a-time.
  
• Their effectiveness is directly tied to the number of heat sinks installed (so, removing heat sinks to install coolant pods sees the returns of the latter diminish very quickly).
  
• They see diminishing returns on use in conjunction with double heat sinks versus single heat sinks (with the latter removing 2 heat points per 10 second interval, while the former removes only 3 (rather than 4) heat points per 10 second interval).
  
• If struck, they explode just as ammunition does, and each pod has the capability to produce substantial internal damage - which makes expending additional tonnage and space on installing CASE (in place of more weapons or heat sinks, or other equipment) a necessity and an additional (hidden) cost.
  
• If implemented, I would hope that any coolant pods used require incurring some monetary cost to refill (just as refilling an ammunition bin would/should), which increases the maintenance cost of the 'Mechs equipped with them.

Quote

Virtually a self-contained emergency Coolant Truck, the Coolant Pod contain a reserve of compressed freon which can be flushed directly into the attached 'Mechs coolant system, boosting the effectiveness of each Single heat sinks by 200% and each Double Heat Sinks by 150% for 10 seconds.

-----

Each coolant pod weighs one ton and takes up one critical spot. For each turn a coolant pod is active, each heat sink (no matter if single or double) dissipates 1 extra heat point. Only one pod may be used per turn. If a full/unusued pod is struck, the pod causes internal damage (Unbound/Tactical Handbook = 20 point, Maximum Tech/Tactical Operations = 10 points) just like an ammunition explosion.

As such, I would imagine that most reasonable people would find the boating of heat sinks to be generally more effective and efficient than attempting to boat coolant pods... and that the less-reasonable ones discover this after being blown to bits by having their precious pods destroy their 'Mechs from the inside out.

Your thoughts?

(Also, we are in need of an "evil grin/smirk" smiley...)

[Strum Wealh]

MaddMaxx, on 27 February 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

The use of Coolant trucks would be counter productive.

At best, you should shoot any Mech standing still and getting a refill, not the Truck. If you kill the Truck you can't use it, or are these Faction based trucks and the drivers are Union members and won't fill enemy Mechs?

At worst, they become THE targets to hunt down quickly by both sides and detract from any real strategy attempted to be applied to a Map. Truck hunting as a required Map function would suck bones.

If you aren't carrying it on deploy.... it ain't happening.

As far as being able to use the opponent's coolant trucks (assuming coolant trucks are implemented):

Quote

Standard Great House combat doctrine is for well-maintained regiment to have about six trucks, ensuring that an overheating 'Mech will almost always have access to a ready cooler.

As the trucks are part of House regiments (and, presumably, well-equipped Merc units), they would essentially be Faction units and would more likely turn their own weapons (usually flamers) on an enemy 'Mech, yes?

Given that a company (what seems like the largest force one can field in MWO, given the emphasis on 12 vs 12 matches) is roughly 1/6 to 1/10 the size of a regiment (12 'Mechs + support for a company, versus 108-180 'Mechs + support for a regiment), I would imagine that a company would have only one or two coolant trucks (as, canonically, heavy and assault 'Mechs need to be connected to two coolant trucks for the cooling effect to function) available to it (versus the stated "six coolant trucks per regiment" ratio).

So, it's not like every 'Mech is going to be able to stand in water while connected to a coolant truck and become a heavily-armored "turret".
And, even then, the issue of "becoming a turret" could be made moot by requiring the 'Mech(s) in question to completely shut down (and, thus, be unable to fire) before the coolant truck would be able to do its work.

And, it should be possible to hunt down and kill the opposing side's coolant trucks (all 1-2 of them) if one really wants to, but it might be better to focus the attention of one's forces on the far more numerous and far more dangerous enemy 'Mechs, yes?

[Outlaw2]

Strum Wealh, on 27 February 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Coolant pods were (canonically) just being put into production by the Federated Commonwealth in 3049, so they would just be becoming available (that is, still rare and expensive) around the point of MWO's game-start.



If implemented in accordance with their canonical equivalents, they come with a host of drawbacks and risks:

• They are single-use, effective for only 10 second intervals (one TT turn), and can only be used one-at-a-time.
  
• Their effectiveness is directly tied to the number of heat sinks installed (so, removing heat sinks to install coolant pods sees the returns of the latter diminish very quickly).
  
• They see diminishing returns on use in conjunction with double heat sinks versus single heat sinks (with the latter removing 2 heat points per 10 second interval, while the former removes only 3 (rather than 4) heat points per 10 second interval).
  
• If struck, they explode just as ammunition does, and each pod has the capability to produce substantial internal damage - which makes expending additional tonnage and space on installing CASE (in place of more weapons or heat sinks, or other equipment) a necessity and an additional (hidden) cost.
  
• If implemented, I would hope that any coolant pods used require incurring some monetary cost to refill (just as refilling an ammunition bin would/should), which increases the maintenance cost of the 'Mechs equipped with them.

As such, I would imagine that most reasonable people would find the boating of heat sinks to be generally more effective and efficient than attempting to boat coolant pods... and that the less-reasonable ones discover this after being blown to bits by having their precious pods destroy their 'Mechs from the inside out.



Your thoughts?

(Also, we are in need of an "evil grin/smirk" smiley...)

Ahh for some reason I thought they were Jihad era tech. If they were implemented as an equipment piece (instead of an inherent ability all mech have free of cost), then I'd have less problems with them. You can then balance it like any other item and piece of equipment, which is much easier.

Of course it was rare (brand spanking new too) and kinda sucked. So is it something devs should bother at all with? How would the game represent "rare" technology in MWO? Costs more? Maybe a cooldown period before you can buy another? Say hours, days...maybe weeks..

Edited by =Outlaw=, 27 February 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[verybad]

Coolant is mentioned as being used by mechs. Making it a non passive element that can help a mech for a limited tiome makes sense.

Coolant doesnt' negate the effects of high heat weapons, it's a limited use part of gameplay, similiar to ammo and armor. Allowing the player to use it actively makes for more gameply choices, which IMO is a good thing.

[Mautty the Bobcat]

Are there any opinions on my drawback suggested? Since the lore states that using a coolant pod damages the cooling system itself, what if after using the coolant pod (to give a reason for 10 seconds of effectiveness) your cooling system is damaged in the process causing the heatsinks to be less efficient at cooling the mech?

[verybad]

I would have no problem with that (reduced effectiveness at the cost of increased effectiveness while being used. I think it should be a use while it's available kind of thing (ie not single use, but a number of seconds use that can be used as needed.) I like having the decision to use it up to the player, it shouldnt' be too effective, but enough to help in a nasty firefight, at least for a while.

[Strum Wealh]

Mautty the Bobcat, on 27 February 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Are there any opinions on my drawback suggested? Since the lore states that using a coolant pod damages the cooling system itself, what if after using the coolant pod (to give a reason for 10 seconds of effectiveness) your cooling system is damaged in the process causing the heatsinks to be less efficient at cooling the mech?

"To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried."

The damage-to-the-cooling-system aspect is already (canonically) addressed by allowing only one to be used at any time.

[Outlaw2]

verybad, on 27 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Coolant is mentioned as being used by mechs. Making it a non passive element that can help a mech for a limited tiome makes sense.

Coolant doesnt' negate the effects of high heat weapons, it's a limited use part of gameplay, similiar to ammo and armor. Allowing the player to use it actively makes for more gameply choices, which IMO is a good thing.

Where? There is no BT rule that states mechs can use a free active coolant flush. There is a coolant pod equipment that comes with a tonnage cost and other disadvantages, but not an innate free coolant flush system.

Energy weapons drawback is heat. Ballistics weapons drawback is ammo. Coolant flush decrease energy's drawback. What decreases ballistics drawback in a similar fasion? There is nothing similar, since more ammo = more heatsinks. Flush =/= more ammo. Flush shifts balance in favor of high heat generating weapons.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 27 February 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

=Outlaw=, on 27 February 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Where? There is no BT rule that states mechs can use a free active coolant flush. There is a coolant pod equipment that comes with a tonnage cost and other disadvantages, but not an innate free coolant flush system.

Energy weapons drawback is heat. Ballistics weapons drawback is ammo. Coolant flush decrease energy's drawback. What decreases ballistics drawback in a similar fasion? There is nothing similar, and so balance is then shifted towards high generating weapons.

Perhaps verybad meant "making it a non-passive element" by including coolant pods and coolant trucks, rather than a "free" flush (as was the case with previous games)?

"Energy weapons drawback is heat."
Counters to heat drawbacks: heat management (player action), adding more heat sinks and adding coolant pods ('Mech design)

"Ballistics weapons drawback is ammo."
Counters to ammo drawbacks: ammo management (player action), adding more ammo and adding CASE ('Mech design)

Though, as coolant pods can explode, CASE becomes highly recommended for pod-equipped 'Mechs as well...

[Outlaw2]

Strum Wealh, on 27 February 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Perhaps verybad meant "making it a non-passive element" by including coolant pods and coolant trucks, rather than a "free" flush (as was the case with previous games)?

"Energy weapons drawback is heat."
Counters to heat drawbacks: heat management (player action), adding more heat sinks and adding coolant pods ('Mech design)

"Ballistics weapons drawback is ammo."
Counters to ammo drawbacks: ammo management (player action), adding more ammo and adding CASE ('Mech design)

Though, as coolant pods can explode, CASE becomes highly recommended for pod-equipped 'Mechs as well...

If he meant coolant pods (and not MW4 style coolant flush) then yes ignore my previous post

Edited by =Outlaw=, 27 February 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Anvil Dragon]

Using a slot to add flush cooling seems a logical option and an advantage in a head to head pounding fest or if caught by a flamer. Myself I'd prefer that slot had the additional heatsink for most situations, ammo for others.

That one style of mech has to be crippled since it's unfair or doesn't promote game balance seems to always fall back to head to head pounding and someone's personal preference in a mech being the ideal in game balance. Games without tactics I might add.

Tactics, for me that's the sticking point. As long as both apposing groups aren't dumped in a confined space or on flat terrain, tactics can be adapted to whatever mech advantage/disadvantage hits the field.

[SI The Joker]

MaddMaxx, on 27 February 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

The Pods weigh 1T, take up 1Crit space, are 1 use units and explode like ammo bins when hit. That is not enough draw back already?

In TT terms sure... it works. I was pointing at the logistics of the game in real time. Assuming the recylcle times are at least somewhat comparable to MW4 (A couple recycle times below)... my opinion would be that we'd have a the basis for some high-end energy boats right out of the gate if we went with a full 10 seconds of +200% cooling.

In my mind at least, the coolant pod would be a "last ditch effort" thing... you are losing the fight and need to pull a trump card... alpha strike hard, pop the coolant pod and alpha strike again. With 10 seconds on the counter... it's basically an offensive weapon. That's something (in my opinion) to be avoided.

PPC: Clan - 8sec, IS - 6sec
LLAS: Clan - 5sec, IS - 6sec

Edited by SI The Joker, 27 February 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

SI The Joker, on 27 February 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

In TT terms sure... it works. I was pointing at the logistics of the game in real time. Assuming the recylcle times are at least somewhat comparable to MW4 (A couple recycle times below)... my opinion would be that we'd have a the basis for some high-end energy boats right out of the gate if we went with a full 10 seconds of +200% cooling.

In my mind at least, the coolant pod would be a "last ditch effort" thing... you are losing the fight and need to pull a trump card... alpha strike hard, pop the coolant pod and alpha strike again. With 10 seconds on the counter... it's basically an offensive weapon. That's something (in my opinion) to be avoided.

PPC: Clan - 8sec, IS - 6sec
LLAS: Clan - 5sec, IS - 6sec

Can you provide a Build to demonstrate what your driving and how many of those weapons you would be Alpha'ing. We need some proper reference to provide a decent counter argument for the Pods.

[Dlardrageth]

Considering coolant pods are officially albeled as "experimental" and in development, enough leeway there for PGI to balance them properly out. Could go as far as introducing a percentage chance they simply won't work when triggered. Any other "coolant flush" mechanism that someone for god knows what a reason introduced in former MW games is just munchkinism gone wild. Personally I don't need it to promote an "EzMode" gameplay.

[SI The Joker]

MaddMaxx, on 28 February 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Can you provide a Build to demonstrate what your driving and how many of those weapons you would be Alpha'ing. We need some proper reference to provide a decent counter argument for the Pods.

I had to go install the game. I haven't played for years. This isn't something I'm piloting.. it's just a build I tossed together for discussion's sake.

100 Ton Atlas
ECM
LAMS
5 LLAS
2 LRM5
11 Sinks
69kph
full armor except for 1 click in each leg

I dropped myself into instant action here's what I had:
5 alpha strikes before overheat (5 seconds between shots)

So in theory... I could alpha 5 times... use the pod... alpha 2 more times while the pod was active... and then because it's +200% over 10 seconds... I could alpha 5 more times before overheat.

7.5 x 5 = 37.5
37.5 x 12 = 450 damage

450 damage possible in the course of 1 minute.

If I'm off, I apologize... been a while since I've done mech damage calculations.

[TimberJon]

Sounds right to me. I see it like this, Would a ragtag merc group that can barely keep contracts going to pay for mech maintenance splurge on a few crates of disposable coolant pods? How big are they? are they stored in an ammo bin internally? Does a spent canister eject somewhere after use? I don't like considering things that wouldn't make sense IRL. Everything else makes sense. Missiles have ammo, the launchers reload, it takes time to reload. Ammunition fires, the casings blast out and we don't care about them. But coolant pods? If you use it, get your coolant fix, and a blue/greenish canister ejects from the torso somewhere, GO FOR IT!

While I'd rather just manage my heat to better pace the game, I'm all for another expendable component to manage. Because we aren't running out to fire at the other 'Mech anymore. We are deciding where to go, how to spread out, who scouts where, who covers our rear, etc. Slightly slower paced combat.

[Halfinax]

=Outlaw=, on 27 February 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Ahh for some reason I thought they were Jihad era tech. If they were implemented as an equipment piece (instead of an inherent ability all mech have free of cost), then I'd have less problems with them. You can then balance it like any other item and piece of equipment, which is much easier.

Of course it was rare (brand spanking new too) and kinda sucked. So is it something devs should bother at all with? How would the game represent "rare" technology in MWO? Costs more? Maybe a cooldown period before you can buy another? Say hours, days...maybe weeks..

You were partially right. It was introduced in the Jihad era of manuals. Coolant pods didn't exist in the IS until the Jihad, and were then subsequently retconned in.

verybad, on 27 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Coolant is mentioned as being used by mechs. Making it a non passive element that can help a mech for a limited tiome makes sense.

Coolant doesnt' negate the effects of high heat weapons, it's a limited use part of gameplay, similiar to ammo and armor. Allowing the player to use it actively makes for more gameply choices, which IMO is a good thing.

Cannonically they use coolant the same way your car does. It's a liquid that is run through radiators (heatsinks) constantly while the vehicle is being operated. It's not a push button coolant until you get into coolant pods, but I really don't like much of the junk that was retconned in with the Jihad era.

Edited by Halfinax, 28 February 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Victor Morson]

This is a big one coming from all the previous MechWarrior games, including Living Legends: the question of Coolant. Coolant has been a big thing for a while now in the series, a quick way to dissipiate heat and get your 'mech running cool again to fire more weapons, continue running at full speed, etc.

However, I've come to the conclusion as have many others: This mechanic has major downsides, to the point we've come to hate it. A quick pro and con of it's addition:

PRO
It does make the game easier to play by allowing people to shrug off major heat usage mistakes, and get more damage out of their weapons. It also does make for another form of "heat management" in order to use the least amount of coolant possible to keep a 'mech running.

CON
For one, it basically greatly improves energy boats and makes them generally the king of the battlefield in the heavy class up; it's easy to just shrug off very hot designs, reducing the usefuleness of much heavier ballistics and missiles. It effectively becomes "laser ammo" as a result of this.

Second, I think harms attention to detail. Most recently the Living Legends mod put a ton of work into little things that impact heat that fits with the BTU - running speed, cooling off in water, appearing on radar when too hot and so forth. However the majority of these things become moot points when all I need to do is tap "C" and instantly solve all of my problems.

Thrid, it murders the atmosphere in my opinion. Heat is everything in BattleTech, and weapons like ER Medium Lasers are traditionally balanced in the boardgame by generating tons of heat, offsetting their damage and tonnage. When I can fire several times with no consequence, this completely changes the entire balance of the game.

Forth and finally, it's not really canon. Cool Pods exist, but they're an experimental add-on technology. I would be entirely behind the idea of making Coolant Pods an equipment piece in the game that you have to add to your 'mech at the expense of tonnage or slots - but this isn't something that should come standard on every single 'mech for free. Likewise, I'd be alright if it was a pilot module that replaced another aspect of the 'mechs capabilities, as that would achieve a similar effect.

Anyway I figured I'd bring this up now. Coolant has been one of the real dividing issues in the series until now but I personally hold it responsible for the vast majority of balance problems with energy boats and the greatly reduced effectiveness of other kinds of 'mechs - why bother with LRM20s when for the same weight you can get 4 Large Lasers otherwise? Seemed like something worthy of talking about, anyway.