67 replies to this topic

[Dlardrageth]

What's the downside on the instant "coolant flush" some people keep arguing for? There is none, right? Oh well, there goes the whole argument of it not being unbalancing down the drain. As opposed to coolant pods which can explode/damage the Mech. So all the silly "coolant flush" mechanic introduced in the past does, is making life easier for energy weapon heavy builds with no downsides to it. Yeah, we so totally need that... because some people cannot figure out how to properly balance heat levels without it apparently. Want some more dumbing down with that w(h)ine...?

Edited by Dlardrageth, 11 March 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Sp12]

Dlardrageth, on 11 March 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

because some people cannot figure out how to properly balance heat levels without it apparently. Want some more dumbing down with that w(h)ine...?

I'm never actually sure if you're trolling or not. No one was whining (save maybe you), and dumbing down is exactly what this doesn't do.

It's not like balancing heat levels is some fantastic skill. Chain fire and waiting around for it to dissipate over time. The 'downside' is that there's only so much coolant. Using it requries you to make a cost/reward decision (Will it allow you to get that last volley off and core that Atlas? Are you not in combat and cooling naturally anyway? Do you need to MASC all the way home for repairs?), certainly more so than ammunition does. What's the downside to the instant reloading/basically infinite ammo most ballistic weapons have?

Realize it was initially implemented as basically laser-ammunition.

Edited by Sp12, 11 March 2012 - 05:34 AM.

[Dlardrageth]

Sp12, on 11 March 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

I'm never actually sure if you're trolling or not. No one was whining (save maybe you), and dumbing down is exactly what this doesn't do.
[...]
What's the downside to the instant reloading/basically infinite ammo most ballistic weapons have?

Who's trolling now? Yeah, right, "basically infinite ammo"... Which game were you talking about again?

Cannot be BattleTech where you have e.g. Mechs like the CLNT-1-2R Clint, compare it to the -3U variant and check on the respective BVs. Just to name one example. Here's another: RFL-5M Rifleman, with a whole 20 rounds as ammo for double UAC5s. Ye, have fun firing those in ultra mode with that awesome "infinite ammo"... You could instead ofc just get the 5D variant which has no ammo issues at all (both 3050 models which can be in game in as little as one year).

What's the next strawman, you are going to claim you'd take a standard AC2 any time of the day over an ERPPC if given the choice? Sheesh...

But surely if you think having a coolant flush crutch handy to somewhat negate the need to manage the heat scale carefully, you also think energy weapons are terribly underpowered. Guess that is why almost noone uses them as is, right? Gee, I really wonder how the people were able to play BattleTech at all without the awesome coolant flush that some paint as a totally necessary requisite to use energy weapons...

Mind me, I still think coolant pods though, with the downsides they carry, are at least totally debatable.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 11 March 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[Sym]

Being a Autocannon guy I say let them have their Coolant Pods.

Give people the option for coolant pods but like with thing else, make them a module that has tonnage and more importantly, critical space.
This way people who make the choice to use pods will have to find the tonnage and space to install the pods but have to deal with the chance of being crit'd and causing damage to ones self.
Think of it this way. Ballistic mechs do not suffer from heat. What they DO suffer from is ammo depletion and ammo explosions. So the fix is to add more ammo and CASE which has tonnage and space. So there IS a price for enhancing autocannons.


You talk about balance. If you truly believe that then remove all extra ammo and CASE from autocannons. I say give the energy boys their pods.

[Strum Wealh]

Sp12, on 11 March 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

I'm never actually sure if you're trolling or not. No one was whining (save maybe you), and dumbing down is exactly what this doesn't do.

It's not like balancing heat levels is some fantastic skill. Chain fire and waiting around for it to dissipate over time. The 'downside' is that there's only so much coolant. Using it requries you to make a cost/reward decision (Will it allow you to get that last volley off and core that Atlas? Are you not in combat and cooling naturally anyway? Do you need to MASC all the way home for repairs?), certainly more so than ammunition does. What's the downside to the instant reloading/basically infinite ammo most ballistic weapons have?

Realize it was initially implemented as basically laser-ammunition.

Part of the issue is that limiting the number of flushes, by itself, is not enough of a drawback relative to the benefits of having the mechanic in the first place.

A MW4 Marauder with 12 additional heat sinks and full coolant standing still in the Coliseum while firing two standard PPCs takes 6 seconds to dissipate all of the heat generated by a single dual-PPC salvo.

A MW4 Marauder with 12 additional heat sinks and 50% coolant standing still in the Coliseum while firing two standard PPCs takes 6 seconds to dissipate all of the heat generated by a single dual-PPC salvo.

A MW4 Marauder with 12 additional heat sinks and no more coolant to flush standing still in the Coliseum while firing two standard PPCs takes 6 seconds to dissipate all of the heat generated by a single dual-PPC salvo.

The MW4 coolant flush removes substantial amounts heat and has a finite number of uses, but comes with none of the downsides of canon heat sinks, canon coolant pods, or coolant trucks - it consumes no internal volume and no tonnage (and so requires no substantial trade-offs), its usage has no actial effect on overall cooling performance (heat sinks with little/no coolant perform just as well as heat sinks with a full supply of coolant), and that its usage has become nearly mandatory for energy-heavy 'Mechs that are built without a sensible number of heat sinks.

As an example, see the canon Supernova - it is a 90-ton Clan ER Large Laser boat (it carries six such lasers), but its firepower is balanced by by needing 26 double heat sinks (effectively 52 heat sinks!) to only mostly deal with the heat generated by all of its weapons (a total of 60 units of heat generated by firing all weapons).

By contrast, a common MW4 Nova Cat variant mounts seven Clan ER Large Lasers on a 75-ton chassis, runs at 90+ kph, and typically carries very few heat sinks and/or very little armor on its legs (as it is used for "hill-humping"; of note is that those who choose to minimally-armor the legs are those who tend to become quite vocal when said minimally-armored legs are targeted and fired upon ).
With two additional heat sinks, it takes nearly 30 seconds to remove all of the heat, and shuts down for nearly 30 seconds after two consecutive salvos.
With the coolant flush (which consumes no heat, consumes no internal volume, and has no effect on heat sink effectiveness), it takes 15-18 seconds to dissipate all of the heat.

This, along with a fairly poor representation of critical spaces in the MechLab, and probably a few other factors, led to energy boats becoming by-far the most dominant loadout in the most recent generation of MW games (MW4).

Part of the objection to having the MW4-esque coolant flush mechanic present in MWO stems from the belief that having it included would, as with the MW4 series, make energy-boats so much more dominant over other options as to effectively be the only truly viable option for any team that wishes to do well in, let alone win, a match (especially if the other team is employing such 'Mechs).

As discussed throughout the thread, some of the ways that would make the presence of a coolant flush mechanic more palatable would be:

• to make access to it dependent an external asset that one bust locate and travel to in order to use (coolant truck)
  
• to make access to it dependent an internal asset that consumes tonnage and internal space and is vulnerable to being destroyed (coolant pod)
  
• to make it have a substantial effect on heat sink effectiveness (drop in heat sink efficiency is directly proportional to the amount of coolant flushed; if one flushes all of one's coolant, one's heat sinks become effectively non-operational)

Your thoughts?

[Felix Dracc]

Nerts, on 26 February 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Yeah, I'd prefer a coolant pod system, where you have to have it installed on your mech and it cools all at once, I don't think anyone wants MW4's "tap F to not explode" red-lining laser boats.

This I have to agree with unless there's some cost to having such a ability I would rather not have it in the game.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I have no problem with people having experimental items such as coolant pods which take up weight and armour as long as ammo dependent weapons can have their experimental stuff in the way of differing ammo types etc. It would also assume that we would have access to the limited level 2 tech of CASE. So far there is no indication that we will have anything more than Level 1.

[Dlardrageth]

Strum Wealh, on 11 March 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

[...]

• to make it have a substantial effect on heat sink effectiveness (drop in heat sink efficiency is directly proportional to the amount of coolant flushed; if one flushes all of one's coolant, one's heat sinks become effectively non-operational)

Your thoughts?

That last option offers IMO some interesting perspectives. One almost wished the past developers had thought of that one, if they didn't already bother to look at BT game mechanics and balance too closely apparently. Or at least a modification of it. Like triggering the coolant flush would cause a random number of heat sinks to completely stop working every time. That would be a sufficient backlash to the whole "flush" shenanigans. And might restore some balance, as you don't just get a feature handed on a silver platter without any risks or downsides involved. In particular as only some Mech variants/builds profit heavily from it and others next to not at all.