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Energy of the Future


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Poll: Green energy (80 member(s) have cast votes)

What source of energy do you think we should be focusing on?

  1. Solar power (Panels) (11 votes [13.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.75%

  2. Wind power (Windmills) (7 votes [8.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.75%

  3. Hydro power (Dams) (2 votes [2.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.50%

  4. Uranium fission (modern nuclear power) (5 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  5. Thorium fission (look it up) (3 votes [3.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.75%

  6. Cold fusion (23 votes [28.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.75%

  7. Hot fusion (17 votes [21.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.25%

  8. Getting more out of fossil fuels (2 votes [2.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.50%

  9. Other (antimatter isn't really... short term) (10 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

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#1 Zakatak

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:23 PM

Somebody suggested making a thread about green energy/climate change/the future and the like. What are your opinions on green energy and climate change?

I'll make a big response later, but for now, I just wanted to link these...

New cold fusion technology (E-Cat) < 1 megawatt plants available for 1.5 million USD

And here is a new design by a small company called "General Fusion" in Canada. It costs 1/100th of projects like the ITER, and uses a new design. I consider Tokamak designs to be a dead-end, which is why I am cheering for this one. 100+ megawatt plants for 35 million USD or so.

Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by Zakatak, 28 February 2012 - 07:22 PM.


#2 Kenyon Burguess

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:53 PM

i like windmills so im voting for more wind power

#3 Hanyit Greyhame

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:29 PM

I think any form of fusion is the way to go. The great thing about it is that it produces very few (comparitively) bio-hazards once you get past the extreme temperatures involved. If I remember correctly, there is no radioactive waste that people will have to deal with in the decades to come. Unfortunately, as in all processes that consume something, there is a limited amount of materials that are needed, so we would eventually have to abandon any technique we come up with here, or find another planet to supply us with materials. The process that the OP outlined looks very promising, but we will have to wait until widespread use before we can see how stable and efficient it really is on a large scale.

Dealing with the other energy alternatives, getting off of fossil fuels is a must. We use them at a faster rate than the natural process of fossilization and compression can create them. As another problem, they are also terrible for the environment, and if we continue their wanton use, our descendants will not be alive to pilot mechs in the 31st Century. The main problem with the other alternatives is the amount of space usable for these initiatives. A wind farm, solar farm, or hydroelectric dam (this a little less so, but it has its own environmental problems) are incredibly space inefficient. That alone prevents them from seeing potential widespread use. And the current Uranium Fission technology, while useful and efficient, has the potential for terrible catastrophic failure, and then there is the problem of storing the spent rods until they cool down.

Just my two C-Bills,

Hanyit Greyhame

Edit: Typo

Edited by Hanyit Greyhame, 27 February 2012 - 06:31 PM.


#4 FaustianBargain

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

The amount of energy we get from the sun in one year is greater than all the energy we would get from fossil fuels and uranium fission, so I'm always in favor of solar energy. But effectively using that energy would require some outstanding breakthroughs in energy storage/transmission so I figure we're still aways off.

My second choice would be fusion because it fits better into how our power grids are currently designed and could provide a much safer long-term energy solution compared to fossil fuels.

#5 Fiachdubh

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:03 PM

Just choosing one will never work, we need to use wind, solar and hydro power as well as anything else we come up with. Besides solar would not be very practical here on the west coast of Ireland however I can hear the wind howling and waves crashing as I type (well not really but if I stood in the garden I could). We should use all three plus geothermal. The cold fusion looks interesting too. Whatever is suitable for the location.
If we changed over from fossil to nuclear power we would deplete our uranium supplies just as quickly and I am sure, like oil, there are far more valuable uses for it. We need to stop wasting incredibly valuable finite resources on energy altogether.

Check out this link, it is pretty incredible and looks like it could supply a decent bit of domestic and office power at least, among other applications.
http://www.ted.com/t...m_the_grid.html
If\When this and 3D printing (and it's medical applications) are used to their full potential it is going to be a very different world.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 27 February 2012 - 07:10 PM.


#6 Xiphias

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:23 PM

I don't have time to address the entire list but a few other power sources that you haven't listed.

Hydro (Tidal). Hydro (Dams) isn't really an option as most of the capacity has already been utilized.

Geothermal power

Renewable biofuels (wood, ethanol, algae derived fuels, etc.)


Overview of a lot of these power options http://www.darvill.clara.net/altenerg/index.htm

Edited by Xiphias, 27 February 2012 - 07:24 PM.


#7 Insidious Johnson

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:32 PM

That diagram and its explanation make it look like it is an internal combustion FUSION engine and not sustained fusion.

#8 Morashtak

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:52 PM

All of the above.

Improve and expand what we are using now. Any new energy sources are still ~20 years away from being commercially viable. Even with massive infusions of Chinese yuan.

The sooner we run out of oil the sooner alternates become viable. So drill, baby, drill until we suck the last drop out of the ground, from under the seas and from any where else it may be hiding.

#9 daytrader

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:13 PM

Regarding cold fusion:
There's not a single bit of scientific evidence to claims of cold fusion to this day. None.

http://en.wikipedia....entrepreneur%29

I'm not really a daytrader, but if I were, I would smell this bull from a mile away, and know to keep at least that far. Just read that wiki page.

Edit: Glanced at OP's diagrams. If you don't see a problem with them, you're probably not an engineer.
---
Regarding solar/wind:
Probably a great supplements, but I don't see them alone fueling our growing energy needs. It's possible though.

---
Regarding fission:
It's bad to be too adamant about fission power. That's what happened to Germany. They were too eager to see their "next-gen" pebble-ped reactors work, and ended up paying for it. Now their entire nuclear program is gone.

It's a well-known fact that new types of reactors are ones to produce the largest amount of problems. Combining poorly understood technology with inexperienced operators isn't an issue that can be taken lightly.

There are technical challenges with building a thorium plant I haven't seen mentioned yet. For example: the fact that they're using uncooled graphite moderators sends chills down my spine. You should be worried too.

---
Hot fusion:
YES!

https://lasers.llnl.gov/programs/nic/
http://en.wikipedia....ial_confinement

Posted Image

I think this deserves a category to itself. NIF's research into inertial confinement fusion should be getting far more attention than it currently is. That plus their lasers are beyond awesome.

Edited by daytrader, 27 February 2012 - 09:18 PM.


#10 Polymorphyne

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:59 AM

I would say that none of the listed energy sources can do the following at the same time:
1# Carry out the full functions of oil in our society without costing almost as much energy to gain as it puts out
2# Be built without the oil based technolgy platform.

Despite the oil companies and governmental agencies trying to keep it hush hush, it is known that the oil fields are all well past their peak and that there will not be enough oil to sustain us into the next 50-100 years. Nuclear power will probably keep the power on, but transportation, farming, manufacturing, will all shut down gradually as oil supplies dwindle.
Gas is not a viable alternative to oil- it provides a crappy return on your effort and is very dangerous to transport.
Shale Oil provides a crappy return on the oil expended to harvest it.
Ethanol requires mass farming to produce, and provides a crappy return.
Electrical cars/vehicles rely on the oil technology platform and manufacturing to build.

Heck, even nuclear power plants are not buildable without the oil based technology platform. It is arguable that they wont even be maintainable.

In the end, unless some miracle panacea to our oil woes comes along, we will likely be returning to living in small local communities and farming the old fashioned way- having the majority of our population working all day long to harvest food out of the ground.
Without oil and the industrial based farming it provides, the planet cant even support 1 billion people, let alone the 9 billion or so it contains.

#11 daytrader

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:40 AM

View PostLongsword, on 28 February 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

I would say that none of the listed energy sources can do the following at the same time:
1# Carry out the full functions of oil in our society without costing almost as much energy to gain as it puts out
2# Be built without the oil based technolgy platform.

Despite the oil companies and governmental agencies trying to keep it hush hush, it is known that the oil fields are all well past their peak and that there will not be enough oil to sustain us into the next 50-100 years. Nuclear power will probably keep the power on, but transportation, farming, manufacturing, will all shut down gradually as oil supplies dwindle.
Gas is not a viable alternative to oil- it provides a crappy return on your effort and is very dangerous to transport.
Shale Oil provides a crappy return on the oil expended to harvest it.
Ethanol requires mass farming to produce, and provides a crappy return.
Electrical cars/vehicles rely on the oil technology platform and manufacturing to build.

Heck, even nuclear power plants are not buildable without the oil based technology platform. It is arguable that they wont even be maintainable.

In the end, unless some miracle panacea to our oil woes comes along, we will likely be returning to living in small local communities and farming the old fashioned way- having the majority of our population working all day long to harvest food out of the ground.
Without oil and the industrial based farming it provides, the planet cant even support 1 billion people, let alone the 9 billion or so it contains.

Nope. We have, for all intents and purposes, limitless amounts of coal. (we can produce that stuff out of trees at worst) Coal liquefaction produces your favorite crude organics. Peak oil is also a fallacy.

#12 Tadakuma

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:01 AM

Firstly *** a serious and moderately deep thread on the the MW:O forums.

Secondly thank you, just because we enjoy the idea of pretending to blow each other up in pretend giant robots doesn't mean that we enjoy using our brains.

The core of the issue is that we can't rely on a single source of energy, in Australia we're wealthy enough that solar is a good fit for us. The added bonus is that the high peak usage(mid-afternoon in summer) period corresponds with peak generation (mid-afternoon in summer). If we generate additional power from wind and geo-thermal we should be able to supply our needs without relying on nuclear.

For those areas were peak demand is in winter or who are impoverished then your probably looking at a 4th gen nuclear reactor. Last year Bill Gates gave an interesting lecture at TED about the issue, he gave a more detailed speech at a wired conference.

For those who are interested and have an hour here is the link.

http://fora.tv/2011/...ergy_Innovation

If you only have 30 minutes here is the TED lecture.

http://blog.ted.com/...nnovating_to_z/

Ohh and because this is a fairly heated subject in Australia and, so I'm led to believe, the US keep let's try and keep the discussion civil no need to start name calling here.

#13 CanOWorms

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:21 AM

Yo guys, thought I would throw this in: Space-based solar power. Though pricey, a lot of power behind it and is possible with todays tech.

Edited by CanOWorms, 28 February 2012 - 06:21 AM.


#14 CoffiNail

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:33 AM

BattleTech has us covered.

2020: First full-scale fusion reactor completed

#15 Polymorphyne

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:38 AM

Quote

Nope. We have, for all intents and purposes, limitless amounts of coal. (we can produce that stuff out of trees at worst) Coal liquefaction produces your favorite crude organics. Peak oil is also a fallacy.


By the time you have mined the coal out of the ground and turned it into anything remotely resembling petrol you have expended alot of energy to do so, negating most of the energy you got out of it. Oil gives a ridiculous energy to effort ratio.
Peak oil is not a fallacy, oil fields run out, and all of the big ones have already been found and are past their peak levels of oil production. There is still alot of oil out there yes, but what oil is still out there is too hard to get out of the ground (or shale).

Once it starts taking a barrel of oil to get a barrel of oil out of the ground, there just isnt any point going for that oil.


The reason people generally disagree with me on this is all of the various corporations/governments have been trying to supress the information that oil is running out- it is incredibly bad for bussiness, and for the current model of society, so no one wants to believe it at all. Oil companies routinely grossly over report their oil reserves to keep their stock prices and pricing control stable.

Edited by Longsword, 28 February 2012 - 06:41 AM.


#16 dal10

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:58 AM

pretty much we should of hit crisis mode 20 years ago. we got at absolute best 50 years for a solution.humanity in crisis mode can perform miracles. we have done it before. we can do it again. but we need to get there BEFORE it is to late. we have make a viable fuel source before we run out. or we will never be able to leave this planet without outside help. and considering that aliens may or may not exist.... that might never happen and humans will be stuck on earth til they die out or the sun goes red giant.

Edited by dal10, 28 February 2012 - 06:58 AM.


#17 Polymorphyne

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:17 AM

It is all about Energy Returned over Energy Invested (ERoEI). In the early days of oil, the ratio as 20 to 1, as the oil was close to the surface and easy to get- so for every barrel of oil worth of energy you expended, you got 20 barrels of oil as a reward. The more depleted the source gets, the harder it is to get the oil out (you need to drill deeper, add sea water to improve pressure) and the ratio gets worse and worse. You could have a million barrels of oil sitting underground and it could be worthless if it takes a million barrels of oil to get it all out of the ground.

And here is the problems with alternative fuels-

Natural Gas- America, Mexico and Canada are all past their gas peak, importing more gas than they produce. American gas production is declining at about 5% per year, a rate which is expected to multiply, due to declining supplies of gas. US gas supplies were so low in 2003 the government considere shutting down parts of its gas supplies to customers to triage the situation.
If the gas supplies fall too low, pressures will drop in pipeline networks. If this happens, peoples pilot lights may go out. When pressure is restored, those lights will lead to explosions. Repressurization of pipelines is very difficult and costly.
The costs of transporting gas are astronomical, and can only be done on a large scale.
For america to replace oil with natural gas, it would have to vastly upgrade its port facilities (to incredibly expensive facilities that can change the state of the gas as part of unloading) to bring in the needed gas.

Hydrogen- Hydrogen takes more energy to manufacture than the hydrogen produces. Fuel cells are more a battery than a true power source.
Hydrogen is also extremely dangerous- it takes up alot of space, has to be compressed and stored in high pressure fuel tanks, and it takes alot of energy to compress it. The required carbon fibre tank might even survive high speed car crashes- the plumbing connections wouldnt. The high pressure hydrogen would escape and fill a large area around the crash rather quickly.... and then the hydrogen would self ignite from the heat of decompression.

You know how in the movies the cars always explode on the slightest impact? That isn't unrealistic at all if the cars are hydrogen powered.


Coal-
Coal used to be used for heating, and even powering locomotives, but was abandoned when better alternatives came along- it produces terrible amounts of polluting smoke. We have already mined all of the easy to reach, best quality coal. Most of what is left would be a net energy loss to mine. Coal causes birth defects, asthma and acid rain, and produces alot of waste, and has a crappy ERoEI compared to petrol. It is also only useable in rail transport, not car transport.

Hydro-
This is a good source of electricity for local communities, is useless for transportation.

Solar-
Oil and coal are both essentially solar cell batteries that have been saving up energy for millions of years- this alone shows that solar generators are really damn slow to collect energy for us. You need silicon, plastic and metal to make solar cells, and plastic/lead for the batteries. None of these things are doable without the oil based technological paltform. This is very expensive in energy to put together and is unreliable, with a crappy ERoEI.

Wind-
Everyone should know how bad wind power is by now.

Synthetic Oil-
Requires you to add hydrogen to coal, very expensive and energy intensive to do. The only practical application for Synfuel has been to provide militaries with oil when they are desperate and as a corporate tax scam.

Nuclear-
A must have. It is the only viable power source to keep the lights on when the fossil fuels drop out from beneath us, but it cannot power cars. We cannot produce nuclear reactors without fossil fuel based technology however.

#18 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:38 AM

Affordable fusion, fueled by the hydrogen isotopes in sea water, would single-handedly solve many of society's problems.
  • An ocean-side fusion plant can use seawater to fuel itself to produce affordable electricity without pumping out carbon and radioactive heavy metals
  • The reactor can boil seawater to generate steam during power generation, and that steam can be condensed back into freshwater for drinking - arid coastal regions can now be wetted
  • The evaprated sea salt can be sold
  • The evaporated salt can be electrolyzed into sodium metal and magnesium metal which are both used to produce titanium - that will reduce the cost of titanium for humanity
  • Cheap electricity means cheap aluminium because the most expensive part of producing aluminium is the electricity used to reduce the aluminium ions into aluminium metal and the electrolytic production of magnesium metal used for alloying - this makes cargo/personal transportation costs much lower for humanity
  • The generator can also electrolyze water into hydrogen gas which can power vehicles and machines without burning carbon - thus, the fuel crisis is solved
  • And, there is no shortage of seawater at the beach, so the reactor will never run dry... so-to-say.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 28 February 2012 - 08:39 AM.


#19 Mason Grimm

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:27 AM

Jeez some of you guys must be wearing extra large hats cause you guys have a pretty firm grasp of this stuff...

I find myself looking up things in this thread!

#20 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:36 AM

I am skeptical about the E-cat system plugged above, there is little-to-no information about it - the physics are unexplained and admittedly unknown by the inventors, the system is not public knowlegde, the website mentioned is supposedly an independant entity but is obviously just a rumor mill populated with information sourced from people who are involved with the project, they claim to have contracts with unknown military customers in Italy but with low-value contracts for this field of endevor, and they are begging for investors...

Seriously, it sounds like they're producing chemical energy, if the project even exists at all. You can't just say that heating up hydrogen gas to 60 celcius in the presence of a mystery catalyst will cause hydrogen nuclei to penetrate into nickel, turn it into copper, and make it release gamma rays. No. People have placed nickel in the presence of hot hydrogen gas for centuries and it has never turned into copper. The chemical energy in nickel metal is sufficient to release the kinds of energy they have described as observed in their tests.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 28 February 2012 - 09:42 AM.






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