145 replies to this topic

[Mania]

deathabarbar, on 02 October 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

this will only make people trying to hunt down clan mech and nobody would want to play it because they will be the first target

Thats where the higher skill of the Clan Mech comes in not to mention if everyone is just trying to hunt down the commander(clan mech) their base would be wide open for the taking by his underlings. I see your point though.. maybe only the team that wins gains the xtra xp for the clan mech kill. I think it would be interesting to see what would happen.. isn't that what beta is for:)

[HlynkaCG]

In my mind the key to keeping players from migrating enmass to clantech is to reward playing the Inner Sphere.

As other have stated don't penalize, reward!

Incorperate a "balancing bonus" for running IS hardware, If payer A drops a MadCat while driving his stock Hunchback reward the crap out of 'em.

If PGI makes clan-tech is less-durable and more expensive to repair the result will be that Clan players will have to "work harder" to achieve similar levels of advancement to thier IS counterparts. The actual balancing act would be tricky if you get it right I see a lot of players (of all levels) choosing to stay in the Inner Sphere for the higher reward ratios.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 02 October 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Stardancer01]

Suggestions
Glory Hogs (clan warriors won't share radar contacts or targeting information with team mates) (clan warriors get much less credits and experience for killing a target damaged by a team mate)
Not interested in supporting team mates (clan teams limited in scots and assault mechs)

Wear and tear (clan equipment fitted to an inner sphere mech will gradually lose its bonus as it is repaired and rewired with inner sphere components and integrated with inner sphere systems and refitted to use inner sphere ammo +/-1% per battle)

Slave & Bondman, Maintenance & Repair (3 games with inner sphere mechs to make a clan mech ready to use/reuse)

Less tolerant of failure & under bidding (clan warriors get one less drop ship regeneration)

Clan Weaponry (Range+10%, Strength+10%, Weight-10%, Heat per shot+10%, ammo per tone-10%, chance of temporary offline from impact shock+10%, Resistance to damage-10%)
Clan Equipment (Clan Max 1or2 double heat sink compared with Inner Sphere Max 5or6 single heat sinks)

Clan Mech
Mobile warfare infant indoctrination = Speed+20%
Kill! = Weapon spaces+10%
Lucky shot you free birth ****! = Overall armor max-20%
True born never miss = sacrifice weapon platform stability for maneuverability = targeting time+10%

Free born shall not touch my Mech (May not be rearmed or repaired by inner sphere in battle rearm repair bay)

Enemy of all (inner sphere mechs gain x3 extra credits and experience for killing a claner)

Love three way battle suggestion (even for 3 way house wars, higher tech levels only)
Like the idea about different eras of technology (newbs should start off with basic easy to use tech and be grouped with other newbs in low tech level battles)

I think Mech Warrior Online should pace itself and the arrival of the clans should be a major event about the 6th or 7th version of the game, for that matter start only with Davion & Steiner adding a new house for each version of the game.

Edited by Stardancer01, 05 October 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[Discordantone]

I know that this is an utterly outlandish idea... however... how about, for balancing in the purely PVP based environments, you chuck canon out of the window. Omni Mechs, give them the ability to change up their hardpoints and drop it (by all technicality an Omni-mech). Are you going to see doinks with no armor, move exceedingly slow, and have 4 gauss cannons? YES, but they're slow, turn like a slug, and have no armor. There's your trade off. Clan (omni) mechs can switch/swap hardpoint areas... arms, shoulders, cores, etc, and dump it. There is no reason to make it as complicated as, say, attempting to balance Chaos Marines against Worg Riders, it doesn't line up, and there's a reason that the clans stomped the IS in the storyline, despite the flimsy notion that "welllll the IS swarmed them like fleas." Therefore, for PVP, throw the canon out of the window.

You can still have the role play aspect, the 'team' aspect, alliances, certain drop points/way points, and that also opens you up to create side servers that are endless combat (Ever seen the old Sony game Planet Side? Yeah, game rocked, 24/7 you could login, figure out which world was being fought over that day, orbital drop in, and get to some serious butt kicking.)... incidentally Sony dropped that game after many many years because they didn't make it to BE free to play, you'd get a 14 day free trial... but what people would do is just keep making new accounts to keep playing

Admittedly, setting something like that up would be for the future builds of MWO, but it would still be rather awesome, and you'd get all of the old Planetside player base (there were tens of thousands) because there was never any other game like it... I remember battles of, literally, hundreds vs hundreds, as entire alliances would drop in in formation and start dishing out butt whoopings, and then in response the other 'team' would regroup at a different capture point, rally, and start pushing them back... oh those were the days. However. It would work -beautifully- in this setting. Catch is, to do something like that, you'd have to have -worlds- where the combat could be waged, each with a 'safe' point where the enemy couldn't capture (unless you fully did like planet side and made one WORLD of many unconquerable/attack-able by the opposing teams, and had many worlds to fight over), so that no one gets 'camped.' ... this would mean that you would basically be following canon -and- have the endless war concept all in one. Not only that, but you would also open the door for Infantry to be scuttling around, planting bombs and traps, using anti-mech weaponry, building auto-turrets and so forth. It would be stunningly amazing.

Edited by Discordantone, 05 October 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[Discordantone]

Bump because this thread was cool and seems to have gotten lost somewhere.

[Dexxtaa]

I think someone hit the nail on the head.

Perhaps the devs could balance each aspect of the Clan tech separately.

For example, in conquest, the Clans would follow lore a little more closely;

And in the usual drop and deploy pug deathmatch mode, we'll see a more arcade balance (more equal component ratings and mechs), so the arcade style deathmatch drops would see more equal footing between IS and Clan tech.

And if the conquest mode forces REALLY want to practice with conquest style balance, they can always set up a server with conquest balance (with no gain to XP or CBills).

[Discordantone]

Dexxtaa, on 05 October 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I think someone hit the nail on the head.

Perhaps the devs could balance each aspect of the Clan tech separately.

For example, in conquest, the Clans would follow lore a little more closely;

And in the usual drop and deploy pug deathmatch mode, we'll see a more arcade balance (more equal component ratings and mechs), so the arcade style deathmatch drops would see more equal footing between IS and Clan tech.

And if the conquest mode forces REALLY want to practice with conquest style balance, they can always set up a server with conquest balance (with no gain to XP or CBills).

Hence my suggestion (third paragraph), though you would still obtain C-Bills and Experience, you would actually have the 'conquest' concept... say you dominate an entire world map... your Clan would obtain bonuses from it (resources, my friend, resources) making various components slightly cheaper, etc... this would ensure a continuous battle for worlds, as the bonuses, even for the IS players, would make all the difference... and while IS mechs and components would be inherently cheaper to begin with, the bonuses for them would be all the more noticeable... Personally I think that a number of the suggestions could be combined together for one large implementation.

Edited by Discordantone, 05 October 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[Melcyna]

Damion Sparhawk, on 02 October 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

personally I think you're overestimating the control of a group outside of a prebuilt organization, even -if- they spot the clans (and keep in mind, at first they won't even know to look for them) most pug groups rarely even communicate beyond 'help help I'm dying', or, 'they're over here' granted some will take advantage of the voice options but a lot won't and even then that doesn't mean they're going to communicate well or coherently. Not only that, but you're also overestimating the average individuals impulse to shoot the target in front of them, long as it's a red target (which the other IS team would be) it's fair game, clan or no clan, a lot of people are driven by the statistics even to the point of losing to get an extra kill.

The prebuilts will likely have a distinct advantage still, but that is the whole point of building the group in the first place and if they suddenly scramble the general chat most people won't notice (because they'll just assume the other team is silent at first) and with the general chat scrambled they won't be able to organize to work together against the clans. Now of course, how the clan team (presuming they're players) choose to handle their own matches is up to them, they can try and use the confusion to their advantage or run in guns blazing whatever suits them, personally I'd think pug groups of clan would be a lot more true to canon simply because, it's pretty much what the clanners do anyway, each picks out their own targets and do their own thing with 'em, the honor thing might be interesting but I don't think it would be a 'fun' mechanic and economy is going to be grueling enough without slapping another hindrance in there.

Under normal circumstances with 2 random team with no clear incentive beyond winning etc?

yep...

however in a case where Clan is involved and winning against them gives Clan salvage?

then forget about it...

Ppl might be random, ppl cannot be relied on, etc in general...

But there is ONE thing they can be relied on, they will come after substantial rewards...

if you set the game to have the clan tech superior or even simply strong in certain aspect (and weak in others) but cannot be acquired otherwise without clan salvage, then THEY WILL CHASE AFTER IT.

You are underestimating the public just like how some dev including Blizzard totally underestimated public players...

For example, the battleground back in cataclysm release? It works by giving a successful invasion a substantial reward to the invader...

What happens next? Yep... ENTIRE SERVERS all conspired and ceased fighting on them and instead pass the battleground from one side to the other so both sides can maximize the invader reward. NO ONE FIGHTS, everyone just invade one turn, then let the other side invade it next turn and so on...

Why? because that's the most efficient method to gain the reward from the battleground, FAR more effective than actually fighting on it...

you'd think that should be impossible to do given how random and impossible it would be to get thousands of players to follow it... but nope... the reward was essentially substantial enough that it was simply the SENSIBLE THING TO DO, and they all do it... a few trolls and jokers aside which doesn't do a thing to the whole process.

When the reward is substantial enough, PPL WILL DO IT... it's the most basic and simplest foundation that can be relied on...

and when it comes to clan tech... well... unless they do EXTENSIVE balancing on them to keep both sides competitive, then your plan essentially is DOOMED to fail from the start because if ppl can see the OBVIOUS REWARD dangling in front of them in the form of the clan salvage then THEY WILL COME AFTER IT GUARANTEED.

You can kiss goodbye on your theory of sporadic and uncoordinated IS team, because coordinated or not THEY WILL GO AFTER THE CLAN SALVAGE like sharks drawn by blood if clan salvage is on the line and their equipment is worth it and cannot be acquired otherwise.

all it takes for the IS team is ONE mech, just ONE MECH to say 'guys there are clanners here' and you can bet your arse that they will be rushing and gunning for the clanners to get the salvage.

Edited by Melcyna, 07 October 2012 - 02:42 AM.

[Damion Sparhawk]

you seem to be missing the part where they cut the general chat chatter, barring the unlikely circumstance of both IS teams being in the same TS channel if you remove the ability to communicate between groups (without making it obvious) one team may be like 'oh **** clans' while the other team is oblivious, so the first team to spot the clans might end up getting sandwhiched between the clans and the opposing IS team and the other team may not even know the clans are there until it makes no difference , and no, I'm not underestimating the greed of the average player, if anything I'm relying on it, because the only team that gets the salvage is the WINNING team, that makes anything they can do to cripple the other IS team while still defeating the clans perfectly acceptable in the long run.

[Hayashi]

Someone already suggested nerfing the clan tech by making it impossible for clan mechs to communicate through voice comms (AKA perm disable the ingame VOIP function, when it comes out, for those mechs) while leaving it on by default for IS mechs.

O.P. technology on PUGs versus U.P. technology on better coordinated teams, essentially.

[James Pryde]

I still think the cost prohibitive would work if they do the costs slightly more then the first run of repair costs but keep the cbills earned the same as now. The worry about grinding your cash flow is this yes they can grind but hey that means 1 super clan mech every 10 or so missions big deal! 10% is not that much. as for the whole "pay to win" people that can only last so long...oh btw there is a team of 8! 1 mech doens't a win make! I've been on teams so many times where all but 1 or 2 mechs were killed in a few mins and the last Atlas or Awesome might get a pair of kills if he/she is lucky before the other 5-8 kill him. We really are overstressing this I'm just going to have fun no matter what and hope everyone does too!

[RagingOyster]

Why are there so many "make Clan tech super expensive" suggestions? Do you not realize that this, if implemented, would literally kill MWO? If Clan tech was extremely expensive, suddenly only the people willing to shell out to buy MC would have access to it and those few paying players could wander around stomping IS freebies.
Making Clan tech expensive is NOT the way to go. Period.
I always say that i do not want a bunch of annoying kids jumping to the Clans just to get the good tech. In my opinion, the only workable way to implement Clan tech is to make lore take a backseat to balance for gameplay purposes. Give the IS double heat sinks that take up the same amount of space as Clan DHS, make Clan weapons generate very high heat paired with high damage (so you have to make that ER PPC shot count because you will not be firing again untill the heat dissipates), allow IS players the option to pay c-bills for a salvage team before a battle with Clansmen so they can recover some Clan tech if they win or get kills/assists/component destruction. Things like this will keep the F2P model viable.
From a lore standpoint, create a language filter for all Clan chat channels that will censor contractions, forcing players to avoid that barbaric practice. Make it impossible to return to an IS faction if you change over so only players who are sure they want to will join the Clans, and maybe even drop the Clan players' c-bill gains since they are not fighting for money that way most players who join will join because they like the Clans from a lore perspective not from a "lolz powerful gunz roflstomp noobs" perspective.

Edited by RagingOyster, 07 October 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Khardis]

I think that they should wait awhile... like a year.. to release clan tech. Release the game get the IS stuff all balanced out, let the player base settle in and see how thing play out as far as keeping the game alive and kicking. Then once the game has some time under its belt and a living player community, then start talking about how to introduce clan tech.

There are a lot of great ideas about how to implement this. I think that a limited ability to resupply the clan tech would be interesting in the larger campaign style of warfare they are talking about.

Here's something that comes to mind, clans are invading and IS has more resources. This could play out so IS make more $$ per match and less cost to repair, yes this can just be ground out but if done right you'll save that clan tech for when you got your buddies with you on TS and not just some random pug because you don't want to go broke showing off your clan tech.

There are inumerable ways to balance out the playstyle

Clan: longer range, bigger engines/ higher heat, more crits, less armor, would be a very simple way to balance things.


tldr: WAIT a long time before even thinking of implementing clan tech. We all love clan mechs they look awesome and have great tech, but it will be a fun thing to look forward too and if given enough time it will be like MW christmas ooo i realy do want to play my loki again.

[Dexxtaa]

Hayashi, on 07 October 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Someone already suggested nerfing the clan tech by making it impossible for clan mechs to communicate through voice comms (AKA perm disable the ingame VOIP function, when it comes out, for those mechs) while leaving it on by default for IS mechs.

O.P. technology on PUGs versus U.P. technology on better coordinated teams, essentially.

I personally use TeamSpeak to talk to people I'm hanging out with. The removal of in-game VoIP wouldn't change anything for me, honestly.

[Randodan]

Wouldn't your allegiance determine what 'Mechs you could use? I assume that you can create a pilot in the release version of the game that, similar to other online games, assigns you to your role of either IS or a clan.

Edited by Randodan, 07 October 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[Damion Sparhawk]

Hayashi, on 07 October 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Someone already suggested nerfing the clan tech by making it impossible for clan mechs to communicate through voice comms (AKA perm disable the ingame VOIP function, when it comes out, for those mechs) while leaving it on by default for IS mechs.

O.P. technology on PUGs versus U.P. technology on better coordinated teams, essentially.

Dexxtaa, on 07 October 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

I personally use TeamSpeak to talk to people I'm hanging out with. The removal of in-game VoIP wouldn't change anything for me, honestly.

only way that would work is if you couldn't actually drop as a group, which I don't think would go over very well unless it was only a temporary thing.

Edited by Damion Sparhawk, 07 October 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[Cryosabre]

Why not a system where the top say 10 or 20 or even 100 players i dont know, get access to 1 clan mech of their choosing for that week alone as a reward for being the best at the time.

Something like you've been recruiting by the clans for being the best of the best etc...

And for that week alone you get to choose lets say a Madcat With all its base weps no cusomisation because frankly why would you need to lol.

But that would give you a major advantage and more chance to farm for that week plus make it really fun being a clanner then it all resets and starts again. for the following week.

Maybe make it so you can't habe a clan mech for 2 weeks running just to keep it fair?

What ya think?

[Cryosabre]

Just had another thought.

Not sure if any of you will remember this game as it had a very small player base but one game i know of cracked the problem that is being discussed here.

Myth of Soma, you had humans then years later they introduced the Devil race, indervidually they was way way way stronger than the humans but the humans vastly outnumbered the devils because people had played them already and most people stuck with what they knew and loved the idea of out fighting a stronger opponent with your mates working together.

Myabe thats how the clans with work out, yeah they are stronger than the IS mechs but that dont make the pilot a better one or a better team.

It may just work out

If the game is skill based and not just "who has the biggest guns wins" then the idea out beating someone in a superior mech sounds fun

[Melcyna]

Damion Sparhawk, on 07 October 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

you seem to be missing the part where they cut the general chat chatter, barring the unlikely circumstance of both IS teams being in the same TS channel if you remove the ability to communicate between groups (without making it obvious) one team may be like 'oh **** clans' while the other team is oblivious, so the first team to spot the clans might end up getting sandwhiched between the clans and the opposing IS team and the other team may not even know the clans are there until it makes no difference , and no, I'm not underestimating the greed of the average player, if anything I'm relying on it, because the only team that gets the salvage is the WINNING team, that makes anything they can do to cripple the other IS team while still defeating the clans perfectly acceptable in the long run.

Oblivious?

when they are fighting at 500m range or less?

i mean seriously now... since NDA is now gone, we can talk of what we know of so far...

now you tell me how on earth would ANYONE not realize their presence with the range of engagement and vision we have?

one guy standing on the caustic edge can see half the map, one guy standing on the snow city ridge can see most of the map baring the tunnel, etc...

oh and i suppose if he packs ER weapon or LRM he can shoot them too..

I mean seriously, the idea that the clan can be NOT noticed with their distinct mech, weapon, and the size of the map we have not to mention our significant view range (much further than the weapon range of most loadout) makes the concept quite ludicrous.

And sure, each IS team will attempt to cripple the other team while still winning the match and do you know what is the BEST method to do so?

Waiting until the clan cleaned one IS team would be STUPID beyond comprehension since that lets them utilize their best strength (ie: their superior individual capability if we follow the rationale that they are simply stronger and balanced by number) and reducing the chance of the IS team of either side from winning, engaging them first is similarly hazardous since they would want to preserve their strength to be the last one standing.

That leaves pretty much only 1 alternative left to maximize their chance, ie: avoiding engagement until light mechs have finished their scout run and waiting until the clan engage the other IS team before engaging the clan.

Once the clan is dead, the other IS team that were engaged would have taken the majority of the damage. This works since ppl in general cannot cope with multiple threat at once (very obvious in the beta when watching the performance of most pilot when they are outnumbered) and thus tend to choose a target (the easier one) and focus on that even if they are being shot to pieces from multiple direction including the back so in all likelihood if the clan engaged one IS team, the other IS team is more or less safe as long as they avoid fighting until the brawl start.

No offense of course, but this is a pretty dumb setting... where the best move is TO NOT FIGHT, and avoid engaging the enemy until the scout finishes their scout run at least to ascertain the participant and waiting until the other teams start engaging each other first.

Same with the clan team if they are present, their best move is also to NOT FIGHT until the other 2 IS team engage each other and to avoid the IS lights before they are ready to strike. Naturally impractical to do on the current known map given there's HARDLY any room to hide ANYWHERE when you have a whole team of mech that needs to be hidden.

In the worst case scenario (assuming the map is much larger than we have now), you have 3 team with lights running around, ALL REFUSING to fight each other since whichever 2 sides fight first automatically loses.

Games that uses 3 sides or more generally are not THIS DUMB, they instead introduce an objective to be achieved that makes the risk of engaging first worth it... instead of simple team deathmatch. ie: for example, King of the Hill objective match etc...

If your game design simply put the 3 team into a team deathmatch, then clan or not, CHAT RESTRICTION OR NOT, then i'm afraid to say but the idea is FUBAR. We already know how such design will end up as...

[Damion Sparhawk]

that's basically canon, problem being not the beginning (which unfortunately wouldn't stack up quite so well since a large population would immediately jump to clan) but a combination of the inevitable dispersion combined with the difficulty of balancing a drop team based game around uneven groups.