145 replies to this topic

[Akiralisk]

A suggestion.
Wouldn't it be easier to balance it this way: Clan techs are superior but more expencive compared to the IS. As long as it is so, clan weaponary should take less slots and less weight, so clan mechs would generally have less slots and weight, just to fit clan weapons. In order not to make IS mechs carry too many clan weapos, lets presume clan weapons are not compatible with IS mechs without a special package installed in the same hardpoint as the weapon. The compatibility package should use weight and slots?, making using clan tech comparable to IS tech for IS mechs.
As for heat sinks, I believe everyone can afford buy clan ones, cause they are simply better. The only thing here is they should cost more.

[Ashla Mason]

I would be fine with preventing IS pilots from piloting clan mechs for at least a few years (because seriously, an IS pilot in a mad cat is just plain insanely broken), but I would include them for clan pilots (who would be required to fight in a more restrictive manner; Clan tech is their to offset their inherent tactical issues IMHO)

[Blue Shadow]

I say keep clan tech 4 clans only and just balance the clans with a combination of less numbers in a match, a bv system and/or Zell. this way clans will be unique to play and fight.

[Dynamix]

Here's a suggestion:
Make a "clan invasion" match against the bots. Make clantech NPC salvage only, and extremely expensive to maintain. No player clanners. No buying clantech with real currency, because that's Pay To Win.

We all know that if clan mechs and clantech become available by normal means, this game shifts from Inner Sphere to Clanderp... just like tabletop. At that point, the rush will be to buy clan equipment only, and IS mechs will be marginalized... again just like they were in tabletop.

[Damion Sparhawk]

expensive and expensive to maintain is a given but not a solution in any right and please quit putting it up as a suggestion on top of every other person who's suggested the same thing, I suspect if a poll was made for how to moderate the clans all the good ideas would be flooded out by 'just make them more expensive' which has been proven many times over to NOT be a solution

[8Ballohio]

I am for salvage only acquisition. It limits people getting them, to only those who can kill a clanner. but I think the hybridization of is/clan gear to make repairs super expensive has merit. If someone goes all out and salvages a clan mech, repairs should be in between full IS repair cost and Hybrid repair cost

[cmopatrick]

perhaps balance by keeping clan tech true to canon... but keep equipment together (for a while, allow no clan gear on i.s. mechs) and adjusting the drop sizes: in pugs, clan mechs drop together and any clan vs inner matches balance 5 to 12 (a clan star to 3 inner sphere lances)... or if the code to add the extra mech is too much hassle, 5 to 11.

[Monsoon]

My suggestion is to keep it as real as it would be. This means first of all that any fight against the Clans will be stupidly difficult and that superior tactics and even underhanded tactics will be the way to win fights. Secondly, most recovered technology will be first gobbled up by the government (which yes is a disadvantage for the CC & FWL, but then again they aren't losing troops to this invasion either for some time.) The DC & FC will eventually provide us with newer tech like the Bushwacker, Sunder, Avatar, Madcat II, Blackhawk-KU etc as well as a number of better weapons and equipment designs. Lastly, some tech will make it to the troops from salvage and this is the stuff we'll all have to hope we can get our hands on. Operation Bulldog/Serpent wasn't pulled off with only Clan reclaimed equipment, even then it was still pretty much all IS designs, with a few exceptions.

That said, I'll give you any Clan weapons I get for all the Clan: Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous armor, Double-Heat sinks and CASE you can get.

As for repairs, I agree costs will definitely have to reflect the rarity and advanced nature of the tech involved.

cmopatrick, on 21 September 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

perhaps balance by keeping clan tech true to canon... but keep equipment together (for a while, allow no clan gear on i.s. mechs) and adjusting the drop sizes: in pugs, clan mechs drop together and any clan vs inner matches balance 5 to 12 (a clan star to 3 inner sphere lances)... or if the code to add the extra mech is too much hassle, 5 to 11.

I think 2 Stars vs 3 Lances is fair enough, the one map (currently) that'll really favor the Clans will be Caustic, Otherwise, all the other maps can help to reduce some of the Clan advantages.

Edited by Monsoon, 21 September 2012 - 07:44 PM.

[Grey Sky]

"Pay-to-win" --- all the ideas that revolve around Clan tech costing more C-bills, or only being real money available. A nightmare for everyone because only those who have more money to blow succeed and everyone else is their cannon fodder. This is MMO suicide, because eventually 90% of your customers move on to a game that ISN'T pay-to-win.

Personally I think making this 3050 was a terrible idea, because the clan invasion would be a great thing to come along after the first year or more of the game as a huge upgrade that'll get everyone all excited. The game is still in closed beta - they haven't even finished balancing the IS tech yet! If 2012 was 3048 (both even numbers) and 2013 was 3049, then 2014 could have been "MWO: Year of the Clans!"

Consider retconning the date, devs. Geez. In the meantime, I still think the easiest and best solution is 4 or 5 Clanners in a game to 8 IS 'mechs.

[BriteDarkness]

Why is this so complicated? Someone already stated canon reasons why Clantech and IS-tech have their advantages. Omnis are modular, but not completely customizable. Also, combine that with a BV systems and things work out. Also, I don't know why everyone is listing weird lopsided battle numbers. Why do 6 v 8 when that's a weird amount for the clans? If you take BV into account, 10 v 12 would probably work. A binary vs. an augmented company. Done.

Edited by BriteDarkness, 21 September 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Damion Sparhawk]

the standard battle group for IS is going to be 12, on release, according to their previous statements (i.e. three lances)

[Monsoon]

Grey Sky, on 21 September 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

"Pay-to-win" --- all the ideas that revolve around Clan tech costing more C-bills, or only being real money available. A nightmare for everyone because only those who have more money to blow succeed and everyone else is their cannon fodder. This is MMO suicide, because eventually 90% of your customers move on to a game that ISN'T pay-to-win.

Personally I think making this 3050 was a terrible idea, because the clan invasion would be a great thing to come along after the first year or more of the game as a huge upgrade that'll get everyone all excited. The game is still in closed beta - they haven't even finished balancing the IS tech yet! If 2012 was 3048 (both even numbers) and 2013 was 3049, then 2014 could have been "MWO: Year of the Clans!"

Consider retconning the date, devs. Geez. In the meantime, I still think the easiest and best solution is 4 or 5 Clanners in a game to 8 IS 'mechs.

I disagree for the main reason I listed in my previous post, even with Clan battlefield defeats, Clan tech recovery will mostly be gobbled up by your House. So, basically FedCom and DraCom will take every piece they can get, so they can reverse engineer the tech (all contracts with Mercs will likely have the same clause). The Dev's can easily make Clan gear unavailable even after Wave 1 is implemented. Down the road they can then provide limited access, whether as salvage or as a Mechlab purchase for selected Clan gear (ie. more CER Med Laser, then tech researchers could possibly need for study.) Heck they could even have fun with that and Make it like the old MW2/4:Mercs game, where certain items had only limited availability. 'Clan Gauss Rifles! Available only this Thrusday, get them while they're hot!'

3049/3050 is a fine date, as it'll be still years from popular newer IS designed mechs. (I'm dying for 3053 and the Bushwacker.)

Edited by Monsoon, 24 September 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Wan Yao]

tl; dnr

I say: keep Clan tech strong, but not too strong. Nerf it a bit, if necessary, but not too much. And make the components, as someone said, flimsier, less able to withstand damage. And make clan tech more expensive to buy and to maintain / repair -- but, again, not ridiculously so.
But the best way to balance things out: add bidding into the equation before going into a fight. Bid a smaller force, get a greater reward. Bid too high and you can't cover your repair costs and/or you get less XP at the end of the battle. Clan characters could also have an honour stat based partially on the size of their forces in battles.

[FLN1]

Grendel408, on 12 September 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Here's an option for balance versus your idea of limiting range (which is one of the main successes of Clantech)... how about just making the cost stupidly high compared to Inner Sphere tech. Either way... if and once it becomes available for everyone, it's not going to matter much anymore... but early on, make it expensive. Sure, you can grind away a little more, and your repair costs will be more, but that's the trade off in my opinion.

I agree with this general idea much. The Clan Tech (if we should be graced to see it) should be made to be exceptionally more expensive. Both to purchase and repair. One other thing I might add as well is that any Clan Tech weapons and gear should at first be restricted to being used only in Clan 'Mechs (which I believe should also be more expensive than your average IS 'Mech).

If the Dev's do decide to use a system such as this, and perhaps they'll find a better solution, it will be up to them to determine how much more expensive these items might be.

I suppose only time will tell, or a Dev letting us know what they choose to do, either way.

[The Basilisk]

One of the most notable intentions of the devs regarding MWO is staying close to Battletech canon.
So what does this mean ?
Clan tech and IS tech are incompatible.
There are storys in the books were single, few mechs of certain persons were retrofit with clantech and weapons, thats right. Key words are single and certain.

Except from Sarna:
[...] The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, the only ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts. [...]

That means it is possible to attach standart weapons to an Omni Mech with some modifications and costs. But Weapons of Omnimechs aren't usable on standart IS Mechs without large costly modifications if it is possible at all.
So the whole debate about roflstomping IS Mechwarriors with clantech or salvaged Omni Mechs could be completely avoided by sticking to canon. A normal IS Mechwarrior isn't able to ceap an Omni Mech going due to sparsity of usable parts. Victor Steiner Davion, Tancred Sandoval, Hohiro Kurita...ok. But little random XYZ using Clan Tech...nope. Clan Tech only for Clan Warriors. And Clan warriors will be dropped in stars not in Lances. Means 5 vs 8. Thats about it. Balancing done.

[Melcyna]

Unfortunately in practice it's not that simple...

for decades now games have tried balancing gameplay in a situation where one side outnumbers another...

hint: most of the attempt FAILED spectacularly at it...

The simple fact is that balancing 2 uneven sides for competitive game is VERY VERY hard.

Canon or not, when it comes to video games and it's balance, your head will burst trying to get 2 uneven number sides to fight in a semi equal footing... and like it or not, chances are if they simply used the stat from the table top into the video game the result is going to be DISASTROUS.

Some things, don't translate across media well...

This is part of the reason why laser is balanced the way they are in MWO for example as we see in their vids (with laser having extensive emission time), in table top this was not necessary but in an action game where the player ACTUALLY aims it himself, it obviously will not work with the normal convention.

Balancing video games, especially competitive one is hard enough as it is...
Balancing video games that uses UNEVEN number of players for the team is WORSE still.

Edited by Melcyna, 25 September 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[Damion Sparhawk]

The Basilisk, on 24 September 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

One of the most notable intentions of the devs regarding MWO is staying close to Battletech canon.
So what does this mean ?
Clan tech and IS tech are incompatible.
There are storys in the books were single, few mechs of certain persons were retrofit with clantech and weapons, thats right. Key words are single and certain.

Except from Sarna:
[...] The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, the only ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts. [...]

That means it is possible to attach standart weapons to an Omni Mech with some modifications and costs. But Weapons of Omnimechs aren't usable on standart IS Mechs without large costly modifications if it is possible at all.
So the whole debate about roflstomping IS Mechwarriors with clantech or salvaged Omni Mechs could be completely avoided by sticking to canon. A normal IS Mechwarrior isn't able to ceap an Omni Mech going due to sparsity of usable parts. Victor Steiner Davion, Tancred Sandoval, Hohiro Kurita...ok. But little random XYZ using Clan Tech...nope. Clan Tech only for Clan Warriors. And Clan warriors will be dropped in stars not in Lances. Means 5 vs 8. Thats about it. Balancing done.

it won't be 5v8 it'll be 10v12, two stars vs. three lances, presuming they go that route which honestly, I hope they don't.

[Exilyth]

You can't balance clan tech by price alone, people will just grind more. In the long term, meta resources (e.g. exp or cbills) have no influence at all on ingame balance.

Aside from that, topics like this creep up again and again in the suggestions subforum. The best suggestions so far have been limiting the number of clan players in a match and/or enforcing ROE/zellbrigen.

[Melcyna]

When it comes to public though, ROE is worthless...

ppl by nature do whatever they want that they can do within the game's parameter (and then some outside of that scope but at least we can ban those).

so unless we somehow design the game to specifically funnel ppl into them or force them in some sort of rigid scripted rules... there's no way the ROE will hold without admin and it's impossible to have admin watch on every match or even work on ROE breach submission by players since the admin will be summarily overwhelmed.

[Dexxtaa]

Zellbrigen is NOT ROE. It is a choice by warriors to engage in Zellbrigen, and it is based on the honor of combatants to maintain the rites of Zellbrigen.

People who spout "Zell zell zell" as if it's some kind of battlefield hardline rule either do not understand what it is, or are full of crap. Zellbrigen is NOT the way to balance the Clans.

Remember that we have the option to not grant Inner Sphere warriors honor combat via Zellbrigen, THEN what ?