145 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

Clan mechs and clan tech are superior. Period.

It will be expensive? -yes. But even the greatest IS pilot will wish one day to have their own omni clan mech (see Victor Steiner-Davion).


I will say again: it all comes to the matchmaking.

[Jokulhaups]

The fastest and surest way to kill a Free to Play model is turning it to Pay to Win. Unless you want this game to absolutely tank, do not make the most powerful items Micro Transaction Purchasable only.

there are umpteen million viable way to introduce this part of the lore without completely ruining your game.

[Shantros]

Ok. I dont post much but heres my two cents. Yes, overall clan tech is better than IS tech. However, I think that they are buch better balanced than most people give them credit for. Using the ER ppc's for example (by TT rules, mind you i'm going by memory and may not be entirely accurate) I'm not sure the ranges of each off hand but I do know that the IS weighs 7 tons and does 10pts of damage and generates 10 heat. where the Clan ER ppc also weighs 7 tons but does 15pts of damage and generates 15pts of heat. now what this forces is one of two options:
1. Either the pilot must hold back and fire less often to avoid overheating or
2. Dedicate more tonnage to heat sinks to compensate for the extra heat.
3. I forgot one, overheat and die.
As far as preventing Clan tech from getting out of hand too fast I was thinking that having them strictly as salvage 'drops' would probably keep it from getting out of hand. Then there is no 'pay-to-win' as you have to actualy play and win to get salvage, and it would keep Clan tech rare. Also there is to gaurentee that you will get something you want/can use. I also agree with Clan tech being more expensive to repair/maintain, its rarer and different tech than IS mechanics are used to. Just my thoughts.

[Melcyna]

VegetaFH1, on 12 September 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Canon doesnt have to take a backseat to this

Yes the Devs have a really annoying problem on their hands, but i believe everybody is forgetting something here
The Durability of Clantech is not that high... infact, if anything, its fragile

Im looking through my old MechWarrior 2 manuel here and i spot several things that distance Clan Tech from IS Tech, the one and most repeated is Durability, and cost increase and the heat

lets look at it like this, if you were to take an ER PPC, one from IS and one from the clans, now you have an IS ER PPC, it lasts the fight, it doesnt go until the mech goes, but if you take a Clan ER PPC, and it breaks half way through the fight for no reason... well its useless to you

Ye Clan tech can bust holes in pretty much anything, yee they have increased damage, yeee they weight less and yeee they might outrange their IS counter parts, big woop... if the gun breaks half way through a brawl... what good is it to you? its dead weight and it costs more to repair the damn thing, Those repairs are gonna mount up over time if u keep to clan tech all the time

This is the most sensible suggestion of the lot i've read so far...

and the only one i can see as viable without turning into high expense realm, incidentally high expense is not a solution because that simply drives up the importance of Cbills and thus premium account, effectively giving the paid customer an extra advantage of having Clan tech more viable...

which is NOT AN OPTION AT ALL.

for it to work gameplay wise BOTH tech needs to have their own pro and cons that justify their usage on the field, and durability with IS version being harder to knock out from a critical hit seems to be the most sensible idea thus far.

[septimus]

guys, its simple.

Do what the clans did in the novels...

The clans always fought outnumbered. Due to them knowing they were much better, and pride.
clans also each wanted to rack up personal kills to brag. They would even go so far as to shoot other teammates that would shoot their target!

They wanted a fair "one vs 2-3" fight. So lets drop clans spread out on the map.
In the novels, the invading clan houses would each vie for taking a IS world by.... Debating who's house would use the least troops to take a planet. And the lowest bid won.

Recap..

1) clan teams will have no IS mechs mixed in
2) clan teams will be outnumbered.
3) clan teams will be dropped at the start of the match spread out.
4) clan weapons and heat management etc etc... were all superior to IS

This way IS has a chance to win, and show teamwork and bravery. Just how the clans wanted a good battle to be!

Anyone else read all the novels?

Edited by septimus, 12 September 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[sgt scout]

Hmmm, im hearing alot of options that just dont sound suitable in my opinion. Making clan item repaire costs exceed that of the IS wepons should not stop the farmed C-Billed players from using their mechs, and to make them too costly will drive players away from using clan tech all together.
Also, those mentioning high heat build up seem to be fogeting that clan have double heat sinks that take up only 2 crit spaces rather then the 3 the IS versions do.
I feel if the servers can handle it, simply make battles Vs the clan 10 on 8, who can deny that having an extra 2 mechs on your side is not a fair trade off to the clans superior weponry. Keep in mind that we may even have access to salvaged clan tech to fit our IS chassies with.
Perhaps the only advantages those loyal to the clan will have is engines, heat sinks, sensors ect.
We all know what we realy want from the clan is the fire power. The crit slots and heat build up should limit the IS mechs but in no way be allowed to hinder the performance of the rightly so, superior clan chassis.
So again i will say, even with clan weponry fitted to IS chassis they will not be as effective then on the clan mechs with double heat sinks and crit slots and there for, 10 Vs 8 sounds fair to me.

I might have given a solution with a floor but i cannot see it. Let me know if you guys do, i just wont to make this the best damb game around : )

[Strum Wealh]

VegetaFH1, on 12 September 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Canon doesnt have to take a backseat to this

Indeed.
As examples:

1.) For OmniMechs, customization is subject to the canonical limitations described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual.
The short version is that:

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Clan-built Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the IS-built Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Clan-built Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their relatively flexible weapon/equipment loads.

They're part of what keeps, for example, a Night Gyr and a Mad Cat unique from each other; otherwise, both of them are "merely" 75-ton gunbags with different skins.
Likewise, there would never be a need - or justifiable reason - to ever develop/implement either the Mad Cat Mk.II (90-ton OmniMech) or the Blood Asp (90-ton OmniMech) if the same engine/armor/weapon/equipment/etc load could be put into a Kingfisher (90-ton OmniMech) that predates both of them by almost 200 years.

2.) For Clan-built "standard" (that is, non-OmniTech) BattleMechs (so-called "second-line 'Mechs"), customization mirrors that implemented for IS-built BattleMechs - engine/structure/armor/etc changes are not subject to the limitations of OmniMechs (listed above), but weapon and equipment loads are limited by a type-sensitive hardpoint system.

3.) Factor the Technology Rating, Availability Rating, and Legality Rating into availability and pricing, with low-tech and common materials (Tech Rating "A" and Availability and Legality Ratings "A") being cheap, and high-tech and rare items (Tech Rating "F" and Availability and Legality Ratings "F" or {for most Clan gear in the IS} "X") being exceedingly expensive.
Perhaps assign each letter a numeric value (A = 1... F = 6... X = 24) and multiply the canon prices by some function of the ratings (mean/average, median, sum, product, etc)?

4.) If necessary, leave the weight and pace characteristics of Clan-built weapons and equipment at their canon values (so that canon builds are still possible), but modify performance characteristics (damage per salvo, range, heat per salvo, ROF, etc) to match that of equivalent Star-League-era/recovered-LosTech/post-Invasion-IS items.

Personally, I think (1) through (3), taken together, should be quite sufficient while still keeping close to the BT canon, though I can see how some might prefer (4) to (3).

Your thoughts?

[Lokust]

Grendel408, on 12 September 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Here's an option for balance versus your idea of limiting range (which is one of the main successes of Clantech)... how about just making the cost stupidly high compared to Inner Sphere tech. Either way... if and once it becomes available for everyone, it's not going to matter much anymore... but early on, make it expensive. Sure, you can grind away a little more, and your repair costs will be more, but that's the trade off in my opinion.

I am always shocked when I see people advocating for a pay to win scenario. If something is better in every way but cost, some people will pay for that advantage.

I think Strum absolutely has the right of it, and there's no doubt in my mind that this would be the best possible implementation.

Edited by Lokust, 12 September 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Grendel408, on 12 September 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Here's an option for balance versus your idea of limiting range (which is one of the main successes of Clantech)... how about just making the cost stupidly high compared to Inner Sphere tech. Either way... if and once it becomes available for everyone, it's not going to matter much anymore... but early on, make it expensive. Sure, you can grind away a little more, and your repair costs will be more, but that's the trade off in my opinion.

This man speaks intelligently. See, people already whinge about the cost of STAR LEAGUE era tech, like XL engines "cost too much" and make them "unplayable", supposedly. Now Imagine a Clan version of said engine, that costs AT LEAST twice as much to purchase and repair... if it is repairable at all, currently, which I would say is outside the ability of 95% of units and techs in the Inner Sphere at this point.

Maybe a person buys a Clan ER Large Laser or PPC..... good for him. Great gun. But what happens when it is damaged, and it either costs 2 million C-bills to fix... or it can't be fixed at all, and they have a malfunctioning Clan weapon that does less damage, or more heat, or such?

Too many people look to range, damage and such as the only balancing, without realizing the whole economy facet of the game can also do the job VERY nicely. They just need to make C-Bills and Tech as stuff that one can't "Pay to Play" with.

[Havok006]

Ok no more I can't take hearing stupid suggestion anymore... I my self don't know to much about BattleTech lore compare to people like my brother, but even I know this is stupid. To make it very simple anyone who wants Clans to be a playable faction either (doesn't know how over powered the clan tech is, In fact everything IS have clan has but BETTER, double heat sinks, more armor points per ton, weapons that are just plain better, and more. So making it a playable faction would make the faction teams insanely unbalance, and that nerfing their tech defeats the purpose of clan evasion and the Dangers in the lore.),Or is a stupid Power gamer that can't play on any mech but an omni mech that probably cheats on other games for the reason that they are very very bad at playing.



Here is my idea for Clan tech...To make it short and simple unless they are AI, it will not work. How would that work? Easy this is what I was hoping mech warrior should be.



Mech warrior online needs to have a PVE system and a static map like pick a planet that is contested their would be sever able bases that can't be taken over because its a capital operation where the players can look for guilds, do mech labs or shops, ETC then their is like patrol missions that are in static area maps you have to load in that's PVE where you have to do defend base, destroy base or camp, raid, patrol and intercept any enemy's that are lurking, spying, invading, raiding, ETC, good way to make some quick cbill.


For pvp their should be contested maps where if you see a enemy influenced is getting to close or trying to take over your area, you and your group of your friends can launch an attack to drive them o way if no one gets rid of them in time or they succeed of taking a objective like destroying a base they take the area and can migrate their faction on that map which could make them own more of that planet. But if you defeat them or if they fall back and retreat, the map area remains the defenders side. Ad like 20, 40 different maps.


To make the game more interesting, you and your merc guild assuming you guys have the money for a drop ship and building deployable can build bases for your merc group, some areas only your house can build a base and most areas are patrol around key areas that can eventually lead to a base area or house bases that are all meant for pvp.The map that can have no bases will always be neutral with random events like patrol, escort raid etc. So for Example for 5 minutes you can decide to except a mission (Contract) for you or your group to escort a Transports that are trying to get their shipment to the base safely. but at the same time the mission is available for enemy faction to raid the the shipment that you are going to escort. (If they decide to you will end up facing them in that specific match. For you to win they either have to flee or be defeated, for them to win they need to destroy the shipment completely or with some mission steal the cargo then they can decide rather to keep fighting you or just retreat except if they retreat any mech that went down, the defeated team still gets to keep it). If no enemy players excepts that contract you end up facing Npc's of random enemy House's or pirates.



What ever faction you belong to you can use certain mech model that the faction builds depending on rank or what faction you belong to. For example Atlas should only be available for use and shop at a house of Steiner. (unless salvage or stolen but ill get to that later.) Higher ranks allows you to use different variants.


Now that I explain what they should do with the standard issue mechs, you of course just like before can buy a mech and should be able to modified its components but have more freedom with weapon hard points like other MW games are, How ever if you lose your mech, like main engine hit, mech blows nothing but twisted metal... It is gone. or another example If your mech gets its leg blown off or 2 crippled where it falls on its face and you are forced to eject and your team either has to flee or its a complete wipe out then the enemy gets to salvage your mech and what ever components are not destroyed, like they can salvage a weapon from an arm that blew clean off that has a functioning weapon but the rest of the mech is scrap burning metal.


This now is where the Clans can play off, Clan should AND ONLY Should be insane Hard PVE that will often try to take over areas that are in the pvp maps, this is ok for them to be over powered cause their AI faction And they need to be very hard where you have to be a good pilot to succeed in contract missions areas. For base defending or attacking, you will need to have a very good coordinating TEAM. So if you happen to like blow a head of a clan vulture mech you can spend money for a salvage truck and repair it and reuse if for your own use, or if you destroyed a clan mech completely but their are still good components like Clan ER Large laser and 5 double heat sinks and clan LRM then sure you can take those components and add it to your inner sphere mech.



you should either be able to on omni mech at work shop add more then usual armor points per ton, or have armor plate parts in general that can be salvage and storage to fix up mechs and have separate clan armor plate parts. even if you have an omni mech you still have either salvage Clan parts and weapons or trade for them with other player that all ready have the parts from salvage or stolen it from the Clans, (How ever trading Clan tech might make the game more pay to win so maybe the Clan parts should be non trade able, but ill let the people decide that for opinion.) Either way you might have to use some IS tech if you don't have all the parts you preferably want to use for your omni mech. (Remeber the rules that you can not mix IS heatsinks with Clan Double heat sinks, from the original rules).


When you are piloting a clan mech or IS mech with clan tech what ever part either gets to much damage or completely gets destroyed can not be repaired at shop or replace do to the lack of knowledge of the clan tech. This will be perfect balance for pvp, because the only reason the player has this tech is by loot and is risking of losing his or her mech to another player. Even if you lose, but were able to blow off, like an arm and destroy most of the components inside they may have their mech and you lost yours, but those weapons and other add on clan parts you destroyed they cannot fix or replace at shop they are lost and gone, they will have to replace it with spares in their shops inventory or fight more Clans so in the end they actually lost more Cbills worth of parts in their mech then you ever would even if you lost for example a custom made full IS awesome in players shop.



Oh and guilds should be able to on player bases be able to build and own factories and do mining to make their own mechs, parts, or system, (they should be able to craft any Inner Sphere tech with the right recipe or reverse engineering skill.) as a little way for crafting, that they can sell at shops for anyone that belongs to their own House, to create a true merc guild. That is the only Fair way to have Clan Tech that will both makes since and make it fair, And make this game a true MMO.

Edited by Havok006, 12 September 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[Panthead]

As a TT player and BT fan for decades, this whole thread is out of whack, the gear available "now" is post clan invasion gear. find me one pre-3050 TRO with ER or pulse anything it simply didn't exist at the risk of being a cannon **** we shouldn't even know EL engines or ER and Pulse weapons.

Sorry I had to get that off my chest, as for Clan tech for the IS mechs, both the gear and the retrofit would cost a boatload, not to mention availability was a problem, lose a clan weap? now what? are we just going to be able to get a salvaged piece replaced forever?

Also the argument on Omni-mechs VS a regular mech is way off, sure you cant change the engine armor and internals on on Omni but you couldn't on a Second line or regular mech either, simply put, the way we mod our mechs in this game would have been nearly impossible by the TRO standards.

The advantage to an Omni was it was all set up and then came with "pod space" for weapons so you weren't committed to a loadout.

ok now I'm rambling, sorry for that.

TLDR:

Let them come in, make the fitting and the weapon cost ALOT. Someone mentioned a limited supply which I really like, that would be great for both balance and realism.

As for the clans as a playable faction, just limit the numbers per match, 5 vs 8 should do just fine.

[ShadowFighter88]

I think Strum had the right idea. Basically (and this is just how I read it) non-Omnimechs can be customised as much as we like barring weapon hardpoints while Omnimechs can have whatever weapons you can fit in, but where armour, internal structure, and so on can't be changed.

I don't like the idea of limiting team numbers as a way to balance Clan Tech. Yes, it fits the fluff of the Clan's bidding system, but I hate the idea of that being used in a multiplayer game, especially if the guys in the Clan mechs are relatively newer players - if the IS team is experienced enough then not only will the Clan players have to wrestle with being against more experienced enemies but will also be outnumbered. I don't care if matchmaking takes player skill into account in some way, this could still happen, no-one will like it and superior tech will only go so far to close the gap. Besides; the Great Houses eventually got their hands on Clan tech to field against the invasion so how would you properly handle teams using mixed tech?

Also, Havok006? Might I suggest you use paragraphs next time? I read up to your mention of PvE but had to stop - a massive wall of text like that is way too hard to read.

Edited by ShadowFighter88, 12 September 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Panthead, on 12 September 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

As a TT player and BT fan for decades, this whole thread is out of whack, the gear available "now" is post clan invasion gear. find me one pre-3050 TRO with ER or pulse anything it simply didn't exist at the risk of being a cannon **** we shouldn't even know EL engines or ER and Pulse weapons.

XL Fusion Engines were recovered by the Lyran Commonwealth via data from the Helm Memory Core in 3035. (TechManual, pg. 214)
ER Large Lasers were recovered by the Draconis Combine via data from the Helm Memory Core in 3037. (TechManual, pg. 226)
Pulse Lasers were recovered by the Draconis Combine via data from the Helm Memory Core in 3037. (TechManual, pg. 226)

TRO 2750, originally published in 1989, makes mention of ER Large Lasers, Pulse Lasers, ER-PPCs, Gauss Rifles, XL Engines, and other LosTech items.
By contrast, TRO 3050 was originally published the following year, 1990.

So, LosTech predates the Clans both in-universe and by real-world publishing dates...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 12 September 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Anais Opal]

septimus, on 12 September 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

guys, its simple.

Do what the clans did in the novels...

The clans always fought outnumbered. Due to them knowing they were much better, and pride.
clans also each wanted to rack up personal kills to brag. They would even go so far as to shoot other teammates that would shoot their target!

They wanted a fair "one vs 2-3" fight. So lets drop clans spread out on the map.
In the novels, the invading clan houses would each vie for taking a IS world by.... Debating who's house would use the least troops to take a planet. And the lowest bid won.

Recap..

1) clan teams will have no IS mechs mixed in
2) clan teams will be outnumbered.
3) clan teams will be dropped at the start of the match spread out.
4) clan weapons and heat management etc etc... were all superior to IS

This way IS has a chance to win, and show teamwork and bravery. Just how the clans wanted a good battle to be!

Anyone else read all the novels?

Now this is by far and away the best idea, I also seem to remember ( I could be wrong my lore knowledge is very limited ) the Clans also held tournaments between themselves to determine who would invade a planet, further keeping the available Mechs down. As for making a drop spread out, agree again, the Clans were so arrogant they would issue challenges to the defending forces before attacking usually 1v1 or 1v however many turned out.

On a personal note Madcat and Vulture for me please (I believe they were also known as a Timberwolf and Mad Dog in MW2) Hell, lets have a Kodiak

[Dexxtaa]

Damn it, we don't "debate," we bid for the honor of taking our goal with the minimum expenditure of resources.

Edited by Dexxtaa, 12 September 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[valton79]

What if there was some sort of .... now follow me on this one, some sort of system that tests a weapon and mechs value in battle. Lets call it battle value or BV for short.
Really guys your arguing over how to balance a system that has been balanced for 30+ years. The PvE idea looks promising and there is a more then likely chance that will happen.But for the whole players getting clan tech, let the junk take permenent damage, give it a durability. the weapon gets damaged in battle 20 times or of the sort and it is damaged beyond repair and scraped.That way it gives people a reason to play in the PvE or what ever they decide.

[Nebfer]

Strum Wealh, on 12 September 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

XL Fusion Engines were recovered by the Lyran Commonwealth via data from the Helm Memory Core in 3035. (TechManual, pg. 214)
ER Large Lasers were recovered by the Draconis Combine via data from the Helm Memory Core in 3037. (TechManual, pg. 226)
Pulse Lasers were recovered by the Draconis Combine via data from the Helm Memory Core in 3037. (TechManual, pg. 226)

TRO 2750, originally published in 1989, makes mention of ER Large Lasers, Pulse Lasers, ER-PPCs, Gauss Rifles, XL Engines, and other LosTech items.
By contrast, TRO 3050 was originally published the following year, 1990.

So, LosTech predates the Clans both in-universe and by real-world publishing dates...

Not to mention the scenario book "McCarron's Armored Cavalry" published in 1992 and dated to 3044 has a Gauss armed DVS-2 Devastator mech in it (likely one of the first of these mechs to be built at that time).
It also has the STY-3C Starslayer which has CASE (and I believe double heat sinks) and the SPR-5F Spector which has a XL engine and GECM.

It also mentions a Warhammer having ERPPCs instead of the standard PPCs.

[RaZoRaiN]

I agree, BV is really the best way to do matching. Whether or not PGI decides to take up a new form of BV calculation or not is up to them, but I think a BV calculation along with a modifier for pilot skill would be a great way to balance for mechs and pilot skill (i.e. the user).

[Melcyna]

valton79, on 12 September 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

What if there was some sort of .... now follow me on this one, some sort of system that tests a weapon and mechs value in battle. Lets call it battle value or BV for short.
Really guys your arguing over how to balance a system that has been balanced for 30+ years. The PvE idea looks promising and there is a more then likely chance that will happen.But for the whole players getting clan tech, let the junk take permenent damage, give it a durability. the weapon gets damaged in battle 20 times or of the sort and it is damaged beyond repair and scraped.That way it gives people a reason to play in the PvE or what ever they decide.

PvE is highly unlikely at least for the foreseeable future for 2 simple reasons:

1. it needs an actual AI for the NPCs
2. it needs the maps crafted to accommodate the AI because let's face it if you put typical AI into PvP designed maps and mechanics they get butchered assuming even stats.

alternatively they'd have to be boosted stat wise to actually make them formidable foe to kill (else ppl will just steam roll through AI and farm them) which opens a separate can of worm.

not insurmountable hurdle, but something i doubt piranha have resources for considering the direction they took so far which likely means they have neither.

This is the reason why many of the F2P FPS and similar games often have no PvE modes, it's much easier to craft a PvP arena and let the players fight it out than it is to actually craft AI and assets to support them in a PvE environment.

And just like those other F2P FPS games, if we study the trend... it becomes quite obvious why PvE mode is very unlikely to occur.

[G1ggl3z]

High repair, and limited replacement parts is part of cannon, it can be maintained, and balance is usually covered with the batchall, if you're not into that, you're gonna have a bad time.

The devs have done a good job keeping things reasonably cannon, and only modifying to translate. The major balance that the IS achieved over the Clans was tactics, everything else, was on the Clan's side, from training to equipment.

As is, there's a huge difference when 2 lances work together, vs the other team being scattered and not working as a team. That's the way things go, and definitely shows that a group with good planning and communication can persevere over a higher tonnage drop. If it works there, it can work with the Clan tech, especially if they're playing like clanners.