145 replies to this topic

[RagingOyster]

Balancing Clan tech against the tech of the primitive IS will be a problem. My suggestion would be to increase both the benefits and drawbacks of Clan weapons. Take a large laser for example:
a standard LL will do x damage, generate y heat and weigh z tons.
a Clan LL will do x+5 damage, generate y+5 heat and weigh z+5 tons as well as have longer effective range
obviously this is a simplified example but it gives a basic idea

As others have said i do not think that increasing cost will create balance, in fact it would likely have the opposite effect because it would reward people who pay real money to get c-bills and get Clan tech. This would ruin balance for casual players who did not want to pay real money.

[Damion Sparhawk]

RagingOyster, on 30 September 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

Balancing Clan tech against the tech of the primitive IS will be a problem. My suggestion would be to increase both the benefits and drawbacks of Clan weapons. Take a large laser for example:
a standard LL will do x damage, generate y heat and weigh z tons.
a Clan LL will do x+5 damage, generate y+5 heat and weigh z+5 tons as well as have longer effective range
obviously this is a simplified example but it gives a basic idea

As others have said i do not think that increasing cost will create balance, in fact it would likely have the opposite effect because it would reward people who pay real money to get c-bills and get Clan tech. This would ruin balance for casual players who did not want to pay real money.

unfortunately these are the things that are very well documented in the technical readouts, and they're trying very hard to keep the game very reasonably based on the canon tabletop (as much as possible) things that ARE reasonable to adjust are things like, firing times (for lasers) missile spread and accuracy, ballistics error (presuming the add this effect) and durability on all of them, having a clan weapon that's very fragile compared to it's IS counterpart could make a significantly good reason for choosing a reliable IS weapon over the shatter prone clan variant in spite of the extra damage benefits.

[The Laphone]

The best way, in my opinion, to handle the tech differences is to either split Inner Sphere and Clans up in matches, AND have a game type that pits one star of Clan warriors against two Lances of Inner Sphere Soldiers. Clan Mechs and tech have to be more expensive because of the fact the Clan invasion is just beginning. There will be very little salvage, and with such high demand the cost will be very high. As for weapons yes, they generally create more heat and what not, and that will definitely be helpful when balancing the equation.

Back to my game type suggestions I also understand that almost everyone, if able to, would play, lets say, a Trial of Grievance match. Everyone would play this if there was no incentive to play Inner Sphere matches. Perhaps we could be that you could not earn any C-bills from a Trial of Grievance?

As for the Inner Sphere vs. Clan deathmatch rounds (or objective based) in Battletech rules the usual approach to this was 5 Clanners vs 8 Inner Sphere Pilots. As a result if you were going to play this type of gameplay you would need to select two mechs, and you would randomly be assigned to either team. That inherently means you will play Inner Sphere more frequently.

My idea is not sound, but I think it has potential. Please provide any suggestions or state any doubts (and hopefully solutions to those doubts).

[Melcyna]

The most obvious doubt?

That it will not work for video games.

uneven number in team based match for video games RARELY ever work out...

in a turn based table top that may well work... with a more rigid and structured mechanism for resolving combat, where the statistic can be calculated and predicted in advance.

but in a video game, ESPECIALLY real time action based game... uneven team far more often than not results in a predictable lopsided result despite balancing method like enhancing the capability of the outnumbered team.

The simple fact is that in a team based game made of random players, numerical superiority is among the strongest factor since among random players, it's one of the only factor that remains stable as an advantage. Video games, especially real time action, or shooter tend to bring in FAR more factors that skews or otherwise mess up balance equation... Given that it was hard enough as it is to balance multiplayer video games with EVEN TEAM, we're gonna try to balance one with UNEVEN TEAM? Good luck with that, you are going to need it...

[Damion Sparhawk]

I still think my idea has merit, because it's even teams, 12v12v12 or 8v8v8, two IS one clan that's dropped in unannounced, the two IS are fighting each other as well as the clan and the winner is whatever team comes up on top, clan or IS, so the IS have a very good reason not to band together just to beat the clanners because then they still have to beat the other IS team, fits in pretty well with both lore and the concept of a clan invasion, the IS are going to keep doing what they're doing now until they actively percieve the clan to be a threat, far as they'd be concerned (initially anyway) they'd just be an interfering third party with some unknown mech configurations, the clans would be all for fighting two to one odds, especially with the 'inferior' IS hardware, and two opposing inner sphere groups would be just as likely to stab each other in the back as to band together to beat the interlopers. Maybe even scramble the chat channel so the IS can't OOCly coordinate together to fight the clan, how would you know whether the enemy marked mech is IS or clan until you get full readouts on it? you're going to shoot the red target first, worry about whether it's the interlopers or the other team later (all the reds gotta die anyway right?

[DNI Sniper]

I'm pitching my hat in to clan tech being only salvageable by extremely rare NPC encounters, and being very expensive to maintain -ring.


Also make clantech take up more hardpoints or someshit.

I dunno about the whole IS equipping clan tech thing, I think it's viable with the same restrictions.

Also make em produce more waste heat.

And be more fragile.

With besides weapon load outs, non-customizable omnimechs as mentioned in Sturm's post.

I think with all that, the increase in damage and range makes the Clan tech balanced.

[Damion Sparhawk]

hardpoints is something that could work, but heat damage weight and range are all listed in the books, for example an IS ERPPC does 10 damage (same as a standard PPC) for 15 heat (standard PPC does 10) and gains a couple hundred meters range (and no minimum range, where the standard has a minimum) the clan ERPPC has basically the same otherwise stats but does 15 damage for 15 heat, weighs a ton less and takes up one fewer crit slot (according to Sarna) now I can't say whether they're keeping true to these stats in this game or not, but I know they're trying their best to keep to the canon wherever possible so they're unlikely to deviate as significantly as would be necessary to balance a clan ERPPC against a IS ERPPC for certain, which means they're going to have to rely on other methods.

high cost is a given I know everyone knows this is going to be the case but it is not, and will never be, a solution to the balance and I really wish people would come to grips with that

[Melcyna]

Damion Sparhawk, on 30 September 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I still think my idea has merit, because it's even teams, 12v12v12 or 8v8v8, two IS one clan that's dropped in unannounced, the two IS are fighting each other as well as the clan and the winner is whatever team comes up on top, clan or IS, so the IS have a very good reason not to band together just to beat the clanners because then they still have to beat the other IS team, fits in pretty well with both lore and the concept of a clan invasion, the IS are going to keep doing what they're doing now until they actively percieve the clan to be a threat, far as they'd be concerned (initially anyway) they'd just be an interfering third party with some unknown mech configurations, the clans would be all for fighting two to one odds, especially with the 'inferior' IS hardware, and two opposing inner sphere groups would be just as likely to stab each other in the back as to band together to beat the interlopers. Maybe even scramble the chat channel so the IS can't OOCly coordinate together to fight the clan, how would you know whether the enemy marked mech is IS or clan until you get full readouts on it? you're going to shoot the red target first, worry about whether it's the interlopers or the other team later (all the reds gotta die anyway right?

In practice unlikely because while lore wise mechwarriors may not recognize a mech until they get closer or what not... in video games players with some time in their playthrough will recognize the mech ON THE FIRST SIGHT since they all have distinctive form that can be seen with a glance unless if the map is so big that mech can encounter one another at multi dozen kilometer distance and the optics have minimal or worthless zoom.

in a video game, players aren't going to be seeing the mech once or twice every week... a good chunk of the players in all likelihood will be seeing them DOZENS of times per day. They aren't exactly going to FAIL TO RECOGNIZE a timberwolf, or a summoner or an atlas even if they know ZIP ZERO on battletech if they've fought it dozens of times.

sorry to sound skeptical, but in video games... most of those theory falls apart...

we've tried most variations of uneven teams... hardly ANY at all succeeded in video games.

Players are not bound by lore rules and what not unless they are enforced in some way, they WILL BREAK IT, and if something provides an optimal resource (ie: let's say clan tech are just inherently superior but hard to get therefore ppl would want to farm them) then in a 3 sided team the 2 IS team will do the MOST SENSIBLE THING anyone would do if clan tech is the goal... ie: kill the clanners first so at least one of the 2 team will get the clan equipment.

Even if that was not the case, the one that has the highest threat to their own existence in a 3 sided match is ALWAYS THE ONE SHOT FIRST, so unless the IS teams are ******** the most sensible thing for them to do is to eliminate the clan first one way or another...

If they can do so without taking too much damage to themselves and eliminating the other IS team in the process, so much the better... but they KNOW in all likelihood that the clan must die first in a scenario where the clan has the better equipment, because that's just common sense.

[Damion Sparhawk]

yes, but you're assuming the members of the IS team are AWARE the clan team has dropped with them in the first place, sure they may recognize a clan mech on sight, but until first contact with the clan team all the clanners have to do is maintain silence, that's where the trick comes into play, during the invasion (obviously not a continuous scenario but for the invasion it'd work pretty well) drops would proceed as normal and it'd be chance alone whether or not you'd drop with a clan or not, and if PGI did it without any notification AT ALL then the first matches with clans would go off perfect , then of course you'd have a 'salvage' period when you'd pick up pieces of clan tech, or schemata, IF you won and over the course of the invasion the balance of power, clan vs. IS would balance itself out until clans would be able to drop 1v1 against IS and not be overbalanced. It'd be harsh, it'd be cruel, most of all, it'd be fun, and it would fit in well with the canon storyline.

[Herzog]

I agree that numbers balance is probably the way to go. One Star vs. Two Lances, along with some sort of sliding scale to balance weight. Mixing IS and Clan on the same team would be a mistake. I don't think IS mechs should be able to salvage Clan tech.

I think it introducing zellbringen would be good for balance and add a different flavor to the game. The first mech you damage gets a "sticky" mark on your team's display. If anyone else damages that mech, you both lose the zellbringen bonus for the match. If you manage to make it through the match without shooting other people's targets, you get some sort of XP or CB bonus.

[Avin]

I like what Herzog said. Basically if your kill has any assists against it you get little or no honour as a clanner. Therefore you don't get as much match reward or even a penalty? With a bit of balancing this would make coordinated tactics a winning strategy for clanners in each match but slow going for them to build up the honour needed to buy bigger/better mechs in the long run.

You'll have clan pilots clawing their way towards their chosen mark, desperately trying to finish them off while the IS guys buddies are blowing him to bits. I like it!

Inner sphere can just pay exorbitant prices for clan gear, and repairs to it (someone earlier compared a 10 mill Atlas to a 24 mill Mad Cat).

Edited by Avin, 01 October 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Melcyna]

Damion Sparhawk, on 01 October 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

yes, but you're assuming the members of the IS team are AWARE the clan team has dropped with them in the first place, sure they may recognize a clan mech on sight, but until first contact with the clan team all the clanners have to do is maintain silence, that's where the trick comes into play, during the invasion (obviously not a continuous scenario but for the invasion it'd work pretty well) drops would proceed as normal and it'd be chance alone whether or not you'd drop with a clan or not, and if PGI did it without any notification AT ALL then the first matches with clans would go off perfect , then of course you'd have a 'salvage' period when you'd pick up pieces of clan tech, or schemata, IF you won and over the course of the invasion the balance of power, clan vs. IS would balance itself out until clans would be able to drop 1v1 against IS and not be overbalanced. It'd be harsh, it'd be cruel, most of all, it'd be fun, and it would fit in well with the canon storyline.

Some part of that is True, but there r some obvious complications...

The most obvious one is that even assuming that the IS players are incoherent... if even a single fast light mech are around (and assuming the light do what a light mech in any mechwarrior games do really) they WILL see the clan mechs first... because the IS light can go around and probe the area and find them first, all the light have to do is mention to his team... "yep got clanners here alright" and the whole thing goes fubar because now everyone knows they are present.

the clanners on the other hand can't quite do the same unless if they use IS light for that express purpose since the moment the IS players see a clan light, again the whole plan goes fubar.

so ironically the only way it'll work there is to HIDE and pray there's no light mech that runs nearby at the commencement of the fight and then somehow find them and engage them and obliterate them quickly BEFORE they realize it and start mounting resistance, or use an IS light to trick the IS players from realizing they are present and still acquiring information about their location and composition.

The other complications is that this essentially also requires that the clan players actually maintain silent run and maintain cohesive formation until they are ready to engage them. (assuming they managed to evade the light mech scouts).

BUT PUBLIC PLAYERS ARE ANYTHING BUT COHERENT, and most importantly.. they are ANYTHING BUT PATIENT. (again, this is something that reality will slap us hard in the face when we try to introduce ideas and concept that sounds good in theory but not accounting for how realistically ppl behave).

So either the clan teams are going to fail spectacularly 9 out of 10 until you get lucky and get a composition of clan players that are surprisingly mature and coherent (good luck with that), or we somehow introduce measures to make a random internet player FOLLOW the idea and make the whole concept work.

NEITHER frankly sounds like a plausible option for a gameplay setup.

[Hawks]

Make Clan teams PUG only. Problem solved.

[CrashieJ]

easy fix, you can make those weapons more powerful, but expensive as stupid hell and hotter than demon crap. Clan mechs can take the heat, but IS mechs cannot it works and it's "canon", it forces players to play conservatively or make space and load up on heatsinks like there's no tomorrow.

making clan mechs more specialized can stem the problem of these mechs are "better" it will force players to play a bit differently

until Xpulse tech rolls up and hits us in the face

Edited by gavilatius, 02 October 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Damion Sparhawk]

Melcyna, on 02 October 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Some part of that is True, but there r some obvious complications...

The most obvious one is that even assuming that the IS players are incoherent... if even a single fast light mech are around (and assuming the light do what a light mech in any mechwarrior games do really) they WILL see the clan mechs first... because the IS light can go around and probe the area and find them first, all the light have to do is mention to his team... "yep got clanners here alright" and the whole thing goes fubar because now everyone knows they are present.

the clanners on the other hand can't quite do the same unless if they use IS light for that express purpose since the moment the IS players see a clan light, again the whole plan goes fubar.

so ironically the only way it'll work there is to HIDE and pray there's no light mech that runs nearby at the commencement of the fight and then somehow find them and engage them and obliterate them quickly BEFORE they realize it and start mounting resistance, or use an IS light to trick the IS players from realizing they are present and still acquiring information about their location and composition.

The other complications is that this essentially also requires that the clan players actually maintain silent run and maintain cohesive formation until they are ready to engage them. (assuming they managed to evade the light mech scouts).

BUT PUBLIC PLAYERS ARE ANYTHING BUT COHERENT, and most importantly.. they are ANYTHING BUT PATIENT. (again, this is something that reality will slap us hard in the face when we try to introduce ideas and concept that sounds good in theory but not accounting for how realistically ppl behave).

So either the clan teams are going to fail spectacularly 9 out of 10 until you get lucky and get a composition of clan players that are surprisingly mature and coherent (good luck with that), or we somehow introduce measures to make a random internet player FOLLOW the idea and make the whole concept work.

NEITHER frankly sounds like a plausible option for a gameplay setup.

personally I think you're overestimating the control of a group outside of a prebuilt organization, even -if- they spot the clans (and keep in mind, at first they won't even know to look for them) most pug groups rarely even communicate beyond 'help help I'm dying', or, 'they're over here' granted some will take advantage of the voice options but a lot won't and even then that doesn't mean they're going to communicate well or coherently. Not only that, but you're also overestimating the average individuals impulse to shoot the target in front of them, long as it's a red target (which the other IS team would be) it's fair game, clan or no clan, a lot of people are driven by the statistics even to the point of losing to get an extra kill.

The prebuilts will likely have a distinct advantage still, but that is the whole point of building the group in the first place and if they suddenly scramble the general chat most people won't notice (because they'll just assume the other team is silent at first) and with the general chat scrambled they won't be able to organize to work together against the clans. Now of course, how the clan team (presuming they're players) choose to handle their own matches is up to them, they can try and use the confusion to their advantage or run in guns blazing whatever suits them, personally I'd think pug groups of clan would be a lot more true to canon simply because, it's pretty much what the clanners do anyway, each picks out their own targets and do their own thing with 'em, the honor thing might be interesting but I don't think it would be a 'fun' mechanic and economy is going to be grueling enough without slapping another hindrance in there.

[deathabarbar]

make different queues, like 8 IS vs 5 Clan, 8 IS vs 8 IS, 5 Clan vs 5 Clan, and FFA with 10 mechs like the solaris VII arena in mw4

if the queue will be mixed everyone will try to take down clan mechs first, makin it impossible to play alone, also agreed with the higher cost for clan tech

if clantech installed on IS mech it should be less efficient, like longer reload times, more heat or be less accurate, but still better than IS

[Mania]

My opinion is to hold true to Clan Tech Canon, who doesn't want awesome weapons and armor but maybe have an unlockable feature after the 3rd lvl(legendary was it) of Pilot xp is reached and only unlocked for that mech type. Once that feature is unlocked then you would also unlock special "Clan Only" zones where only those that have unlocked the feature can play there(How about an underwater zone to start.. pretty please with xtra ER PPC on top!)

Another option is maybe only 1 Clan Mech per 8 in the current setup and that Clan Mech is automatically set as commander for that match(with great power comes great responsibility right!). This would bring a whole new strategy to the game as you would have that 1 really awesome mech, does he/she defend the base, bust into the opponents base, or just waylay into the battle with his/her fellow mechs like William Wallace. Could add bonus XP/$$ to non-clan mech who damages or takes out the Clan Mech.

I would also love to see the ability to have 4 on 4, 2 on 2 or especially 1 on 1 battles where you can really develop your mech pilot skills as it's all on you and not that pesky Jenner that gets you from behind as you're deep in battle with another mech but I think that's a topic for a different section:)

almost forgot.. and yes the Clan Tech should be more expensive... it's better tech isn't it, you gotta pay for the good stuff!

Edited by Mania, 02 October 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[deathabarbar]

Mania, on 02 October 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Could add bonus XP/$$ to non-clan mech who damages or takes out the Clan Mech.

this will only make people trying to hunt down clan mech and nobody would want to play it because they will be the first target

[deathabarbar]

also they should make a DLC with singleplayer/Co-op and sell it, maybe a 1 week premium with it

[drunkenvash]

No, clan technology should not be nerfed in ways of function, they are just way more rare and expensive. Stick to the Battletech universe please. Oh btw if you want to do this suggestion, make a poll.