35 replies to this topic

[Vance Diamond]

Mech customization is a huge element of the Battletech experience. Limiting the player's ability to design their titan of death is a spiritual betrayal of the I.P. Also, customization is an important element in creating an amazing play experience. Players gain ownership of their avatars- an essential part of multiplayer games, and the game also grows in depth. The more options in the hands of the players, the more playstyles and strategies available to the playerbase. The game is more robust, more attractive, more exciting, and ultimately a phenomenon rather than just a game.

However, mech components must be perfectly balanced to eliminate the chance of overpowering designs. Damage, heat, and weight are obvious- luckily the Classic Battletech table-top rules already lay down an easy to follow foundation.

But there are two things Mechwarrior Online MUST implement to create the ideal environment of complete freedom and equality. They both deal with the actual combat portion of the game.

1. Consequences of High Heat

In past Mechwarrior titles, there are almost no consequences of high heat, outside the need to jam the override button. Shutdowns happened, but rarely. Ammo never exploded (at least in my memory). And most damning: the mobility and general function of the mech was never impeded outside a superficial corruption of the HUD.

In order to keep mech loadouts in balance, heat consequences must be in place to prevent exploitation. Meks should slow, their weapons should respond sluggishly, and shutdowns/explosions must occur. This would make the player a vulnerable target to the opponent, and bring heat management, which is a key element of piloting skill in canon, into the player skill book. Manage your heat or die, just like a real mech pilot.

Heat Sinks also gain prominence when creating a your design. Thus the laser boats of MW1/2/3/4 vanish and strategy returns to mech construction.

2. Ammo Explosions

In response to heat-based consequences- players will naturally gravitate to the low-heat ballistic weaponry. Thus, ammo must actually be within the mechs of the game. If your magazine of auto-cannon rounds takes a laser hit, the thing should explode. No Mechwarrior game has ever done this, and as a result, ammunition based weapons have had a free ride.

Making these ammo bins vulnerable adds incredible depth to the game. Pilots have new targets to aim for inside their enemies and new areas to defend in their own meks. Picking an ammunition weapon, while low on the heat-damage ratio, adds danger for the bargain.

The C.A.S.E. system will ensure that the player nightmare of instant-death will mostly be absent, but losing half your mech in an explosion is still a huge detriment. That's half your weapons and heat sinks- gone. Bad news, but you're still in the game.

(Gauss Rifles, which do not use explosive ammo, should explode themselves like in the table-top. Players should have the ability to activate and deactivate the weapon at will.)

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If the game has these two features, full customization can remain- and infinite levels of strategic mech design enter into the equation.

[frostfly]

I'm rather hoping for very little in the wait of hitting the spot you aim for. Unless you're a very skill pilot with very special skills hitting a specific target on a mech should never happen. Damage should scatter all over. Making things like using SRMs as crit seekers and firing weapons in the right order important.

[Vance Diamond]

Hmm, interesting. That would imply a more MMORPG approach to weapon firing.

I was under the impression that Mechwarrior Online would feature the traditional FPS style of the computer games.

[Mr Smiles]

I would argue that customizing your 'Mech is _NOT_ in the spirit of the BattleTech universe. People keep parading around examples in the BTU of highly custom 'Mechs, and proclaim the need to do the same in-game as not just a preference as players, but as a necessity as fans (egad, if we didn't have a MechLab, that'd be just non-canon! Nevermind the fact that MechLabs tend to produce designs that would never appear in the BTU... jump-jet-snipers....)

Instead, I would phrase it like this:

"The BattleTech universe is built around the concept of immutable 'Mechs. Inner Sphere 'Mechs almost 100% of the time go their entire centuries-long lifespan without so much as a millimeter of caliber change. One of the reason the Clan OmniMechs were so terrifyingly powerful is that they could swap their load-outs from battle to battle--a feat that, for even the most modification-happy of Inner Sphere technicians, was an event seen maybe once every 10 years or so. The MechLab as we've seen it in previous MechWarrior games should most definitely NOT be a part of MechWarrior Online.

Having said that, minor tweaks are a significant part of the BattleTech canon. Not as the rule, but as the exception: you know you're facing a major badass of an enemy commander when he's changed out his Phoenix Hawk's Large Laser for a PPC. He becomes terrifying, because finding a 'Mech with a load-out you haven't memorized by heart means that you're in a situation you cannot predict or control, and such tweaks--even though they sound minor--are the mark of an extremely experienced and talented MechWarrior.

Therefore, while we shouldn't have a MechLab as we've seen it in previous MechWarrior games, we should have a MechLab that you can only access if you've earned it. In the BattleTech universe, this would require Elite-level technicians and a fully stocked and specialized 'Mech maintenance bay--as well as weeks of down-time during which you're a pilot without a 'Mech--to not have the modification shorting out your systems and unbalancing your movements. If there's no analogue to technician skill/'Mech bay access in MWO, perhaps some sort of large in-game-currency expenditure, like 'reputation' or even just C-bills would be required. Something that it would take a lot of hours of gameplay to get even one tiny modification.

Such a compromise would please almost everyone. Those who want to mod the Kell out of their 'Mechs would be able to--if they spend enough time playing. Those who want the immersive experience of a BattleTech game where all 'Mechs come in standard stock models except for extremely rare exceptions, they would get their wish. Those who are afraid of the MechLab destroying the game as it has in previous iterations, would have their fears mostly alleviated. Such a compromise wouldn't quite leave everyone at 100% happiness, but no compromise ever has, and this is such a divisive matter in the community that compromise is called for."

Edited by Mr. Smiles, 01 November 2011 - 11:07 PM.

[Vance Diamond]

Wouldn't it just be easier to have an open mechlab-

But then have stock-only game types?

Everyone is happy there, and no one is denied. No one has to wait to gain tactical advantages that older players already have, and- most importantly- there is no seduction towards a Mek-Lab for Paid Accounts Only situation.

Everyone wins.

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And I don't feel its accurate to say mechs were never customized. You are confusing factory production from field refitting. No one knew how to create Battlemech factories, and thus the stock designs could never change,

But once in the field and with salvaged parts on hand- techs could readily customize whatever they wanted so long as they had the man-hours and expertise to do so. Thus, only higher ranking officers would be able to do that since they had precedence with the unit techs- or even had a personal tech of their own.

I agree it could potentially take a great deal of time canon-wise- but some things from canon can be fudged in favor of the most important part of any game- Fun.

Edited by Vance Diamond, 01 November 2011 - 11:28 PM.

[Elucid Ward]

Vance, whilst I agree with a lot of what you say... every time I see you spell 'Mech as "mek" I want to stab you.

[Vance Diamond]

But I never get to use the letter "k"!

Besides- Mektek? Come on! It's part of the community!

[Skoll]

I don't think it'd be realistic to not have a Mech Lab, since it's too much of a past staple of the computer games. True, battles would be more tactical without it but I think that we overall as a player-base have grown too used to customizing our loadouts through the Mech Lab and I'm certain many of us out there have favorite and preferred load-outs that are tried and true in battle.

[godmonkey]

Vance makes an excellent point here. In the inner sphere before the invention of the Omni there was very little refitting done to the mechs. Sure as new tech rolled out there were some upgrade kits you could buy and swap a few lasers around but mostly it wasn't anything as major as dumping your entire load-out for a pair of LBX-20's. In BT there is the issues with balancing the mech and getting the targeting system to accept the new weapons (it might not even have software to run the ballistic weapons) and i agree that this should be taken into account.

Some tinkering is fine and encouraged but swapping an engine just by clicking the up and down arrows is just wrong...

[Skoll]

Maybe the customization should be limited to how old your individual mech would be and what it could accept?

Then again, hind sight, the old Star League era mechs were said to be more than capable than the Third Succession War ones.

[Gemini]

One of the staple elements of the game that has been noted by the developers already is heat management. Specifically, taking the weather conditions of the map you're on into context when deciding how to approach a mission.

Since heat management is already being touted as important, there MUST be a MechLab of some sort already implemented, otherwise heat management would come down simply to choosing the right mech... but the developers have already stated that, as a Free-to-Play game, you won't be expected to buy stuff that confers a tactical advantage, yet they have stated that you will be able to buy certain mechs and mech parts.

So yeah, all of this suggests that there will be a MechLab of some sort. The question is: How much customization do we actually get?

In terms of mech operation, since this was a part of the original post, Mech 2 and 3 did have internal ammo explosions, but you had to be running really darn hot for them to happen spontaneously. Most were caused by critical hits. (And in Mech 3, if you didn't have CASE installed, goodbye body-part!)

One trouble of making heat management more dynamic though is user friendliness. Having experienced the Tesla Pods back when you could assign coolant loops and priorities and every individual component had its own heat levels, it was... pretty frantic trying to balance everything in the heat of combat, pardon the pun.

But then, take a careful look back at the original 2009 trailer. Did anyone else notice that when a large gun was fired, such as the PPCs, the barrel opening would become red-hot for a moment, then slowly cool back down?

This is all speculation really, but I have a hunch that heat management will be a little more dynamic in MWO than it has been in previous games, but will certainly not get as complicated as the Tesla Pods once were.

[Skoll]

I have a feeling that if heating becomes enough of a problem, the "Endgame" builds will probably all consist of ballistic weaponry. More than likely gauss slugs or AC 10 knockouts.

[Vance Diamond]

But ballistics have their share of disadvantages.

Heavy.
Explosive Ammo or Gun
Ammo Tonnage
Ammo Explosions
Running out of Ammo
Jamming (Rotor, Ultras)
Direct Fire Only

I think anyone running a pure ballistic/missile boat is going to have plenty to worry about and plenty of weaknesses to be exploited by opponents.

But the beauty of customization- they can make them and face those disadvantages- and people with lasers, missiles, balanced loadouts, and faster mechs will learn to exploit them.

[Skoll]

That's why you're going to see me running across the battlefield with a pair of flamethrowers and a stupid grin on my face.

But yeah, I hope this game is balanced enough to put an end to boats. I'll admit I used to drive a ballistic boat in MW4:M, a six AC 10 set up and you're pretty much down in one shot.. It's extremely unfair and unsporting too, but really if you don't take advantage of mechanics like that, someone else will.

I'd love to see random jams in this game caused by battle so you'd have to eject ammunition via CASE, or direct hits to weapon mounts rendering them inoperable.

Or going further into lunacy and allowing limited melee combat with those mechs that actually have articulated hands.

[Vance Diamond]

I would say that means the AC10s were too light, or the other components in the mek not heavy enough.

By Classic rules, thats 72 tons for the guns alone. If you have that in a 100 ton monster, The standard engine to even make that thing walk, a 300, weighs 19.

That's 91 tons right there. And we haven't even calculated internal structure, armor, ammo, case, cockpit, etc.

MW4 was a flawed design. Though the time period allowed for XL engines, XL gyros, endo-steel, and lighter, stronger clan weapons- which frankly all make everything imbalanced because none of the inherent weaknesses with those technologies carried into the game. (XL engines go boom when you take down any torso, more expensive, etc.)

And luckily, the time period of Mechwarrior Online won't feature any of that- or Clan tek (which would be a balance nightmare- the table-top game still hasn't managed to balance clan tech that well).

Edited by Vance Diamond, 02 November 2011 - 02:24 AM.

[Skoll]

MW4 was VERY easily abusable in design. Just strip an assault of most of its armor and electronics, etc, and you can pretty much load up on whatever.

As for the time period, yeah, I am kind of bummed that there aren't going to be clans since I'll have a hard time trying to decide between Steiner or Davion. I wonder if you can go merc though, and not have House matter, or turning merc in a certain House will mean you do contracts solely for them.

[Vance Diamond]

I think there will be an inevitable Clan Expansion, provided the game is successful.

The easiest way to do it is make the differences between I.S. and Clan to be only skin deep. Same capabilities, same weapons, but you can drive a Mad Cat/ Timber Wolf and have a Jade Falcon painted on the side.

Not much for variety, but its the best way to avoid the game crippling imbalances offered by Clan Tech.

[Skoll]

I don't think you'd be able to do a successful Clan expansion then, without adding the Clan Tech with it. You can bet your *** there would be an uproar over someone not getting their ER PPC.

[Elucid Ward]

godmonkey, on 02 November 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

Vance makes an excellent point here. In the inner sphere before the invention of the Omni there was very little refitting done to the mechs. Sure as new tech rolled out there were some upgrade kits you could buy and swap a few lasers around but mostly it wasn't anything as major as dumping your entire load-out for a pair of LBX-20's. In BT there is the issues with balancing the mech and getting the targeting system to accept the new weapons (it might not even have software to run the ballistic weapons) and i agree that this should be taken into account.

Some tinkering is fine and encouraged but swapping an engine just by clicking the up and down arrows is just wrong...

Nigh on every 'mech in the IS, pre-omnis, was a relic mish-mash of parts jury-rigged to stay operational. Parts from one 'mech were often cannibalised in order to repair another, and weapon's were consistently swapped out when damaged or for maintenance.

It's a logical step to assume that given the above, customisation, whilst not always explicitly stated, was probably more common than you assume. If techs can rebuild a cratered mess of a chasis into something battle ready, it's not a far stretch to believe that they could lop off a laser and replace it with a PPC or AC.

[Vance Diamond]

Right.

Again: the automated mech factories were what people forgot how to make. With the near constant warfare, battle damage, and battle salvage- the idea that techs didn't learn how to modify a mech is hard to believe.

The Omni-mek didn't revolutionize war by making it possible to switch weapons- it made it possible to do it quickly. And really, an omni-pod is just the mek equivalent of a clip-on tie, my childhood action figures shared the same advantage. Gah, off topic ramble.

As was mentioned earlier, modifying a mech took time, skill, and proper equipment- while Omni-meks just needed a weapon pod on hand of the desired type, a crane, and a socket wrench (hyperbole.) But there is no reason to deny MWO players the ability to modify their meks because "it would take too long." That's just hipster-ish obsession with cannon that provides no advantage.

Off-topic again: I wonder how- as the Succession Wars continued, the mechs managed to maintain their recognizable shapes at all.

Edited by Vance Diamond, 02 November 2011 - 05:54 AM.