476 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

StaIker, on 30 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Puretech removed about 70% of the useful designs from the game in one stroke. Replacing the useful designs with garbage designs based on inferior weapons did not somehow make it interesting, it made the process tedious. It meant that players had two choices, either use the same handful of good designs over and over or use notably inferior designs. A choice between being bored or being handicapped is less than inspiring and apart from the tiny subset of NBT players, virtually no one in the entire MW4 community liked it. We know this for a fact because virtually no one in the community used puretech, either in open servers or leagues.

Not only is it not fun, it's not financially viable to base a game around. For every player that might enjoy it, hundreds wont.

Except that's not what puretech did, at all. In MechWarrior 4 which was tonnage balanced instead of BV balanced (MWLL tackled this with the pricing system, making the IS the faction that had "inferior stuff, but more of it" - ENTIRELY viable as a play style) it instead put in tons of hidden advantages.

What you are saying is basically 100% not true about that game. We fought Clan units many, many times as an InnerSphere mercenary unit, and do you know what? Our "inferior" designs utterly mopped the floor with them very often, because we took advantage of our strengths: 'mechs with good profiles, less heat output, specialized weapons (RACs, Light Gauss in that era), etc. Also the Clans frequently tried to employ Bushwackers, Wolfhounds and such of their own when they could get their hands on it, because once you learn the nuances, this stuff was golden.

Sure, we couldn't jam on tons of LRMs or just load up an assault with Gauss after Gauss, but to say it removes "70% of the useful designs" is just plain entirely inaccurate. Not even remotely. My 75 Ton Black Knight with 5 IS Large and 5 IS Mediums was able to obliterate Novacat with the "optimal" 7 ER Large; further, even on mix-tech servers when I was testing designs, my puretech designs were able to trounce them (both pure IS and Clan) pretty routinely. While it's true that an IS 'mech mounting Clan tech could be superior to a puretech design, a Clan mech mounting IS tech could do the same - I had a mix-tech Daishi loaded with Light Gauss Rifles I used for a Microsoft tournament once, as an example. However, when you had IS tech restricted to IS tech and vice versa, the balance was surprisingly damned good.

The trick was learning how to get the most bang for your buck, with equipment that is heavier and often shorter ranged; but like I said, that was the challenge of it. Puretech IS mechs were in no way inferior to Puretech Clan mechs. All Puretech did was make a distinction between the factions, to give each side a very unique and different feel; the Clans had the damage but paid for it in heat, and the IS had the best niche weapons and brawlers with the best profiles. If you allowed unrestricted mix-tech it'd diminished that greatly.

If they stay closer to the lore (not sure how MWO will approach this when the time comes), hopefully they'll balance the Clans by BV. In LL the IS again does not feel inferior, because despite being unable to equip the best gear to your 'mech, it will allow you to pilot something heavier that makes up the difference. For an example, one organized drop we played had another Ace lead a group against my team; I brought a bunch of Awesomes and a Raven and he brought a bunch of Pumas. They cost the same price and it was an insanely close battle, which the Awesomes lost due to bad tactical decisions and a pilot that went rogue, not because of tech. So again, it's a different flavor depending on which faction you play but just because a gun is worse on the field, the resources that are needed to use it can make it more than an even match.

EDIT: Long and short of it is that Puretech makes the factions distinct, if they're properly balanced. Easy mix-teching greatly damages faction identity for the sake of min/maxing. It's like wanting an RTS to give you the ability to build every unit from every faction because it's more effective.

That said, if they make you replace blown off weapons and have a salvage system in MWO, I would support mixtech. It'd be awesome blowing off a Clanner's arm, getting a chance to salvage their gun and then add it to your 'mech, if said gun was not available on the market for purchase via any other way. This system would really depend on how they handle repair mechanics.. i.e. if you need to rebuy any lost equipment, and if it can't be rebought, it's gone for good.

Edited by Victor Morson, 31 March 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[StaIker]

Your personal experiences don't really change the mathematics of it Victor.

[Belisarius1]

Stalker, are you in favour of a hardpoint system for the mechlab, or would you rather be able to mount any weapons on any 'mech?

[Victor Morson]

StaIker, on 31 March 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Your personal experiences don't really change the mathematics of it Victor.

And your statement doesn't change the reality of it.

I have admitted that mixtech designs, be they Clan with IS gear or IS with Clan gear, can be superior. But if the factions are limited to their own gear, if balanced well (either via BV or through the MW4 "more heat, less heat; niche vs weight, etc. system) you end up with two entirely equal sides, despite the disparity at first glance.

You are saying that puretech removes "70% of the good designs." If you assume both sides are pure tech, that means that in past games both sides have had "good designs" and the only designs they would be bad against are ones that break that rule.

Again, this comes down to wanting to play an RTS as every faction in the game, instead of leaning it's strengths and weaknesses. I could, say, argue Protoss vs Zerg all day long but yeah, I can't argue a guy who can easily build both at will would have an edge but that's missing the point in the first place.

Summery: MW4 balanced IS vs Clan through subtle mechanics, MWLL balanced IS vs Clan through BV. Mixtech just removes the IS vs Clan stuff entirely as all 'mechs field all weapons at all times, further degrading their individuality. People who chose IS should be as competitive as in past games despite the first-glance disparity in weapon quality, as they have been in past games. That's all there is to it really.

EDIT: To clarify your argument against puretech is effectively that you can't put Clan weapons on IS 'mechs and that IS 'mechs are then inferior, right? Just making sure if is that, or you actually think both Clan and IS 'mechs are at a disadvantage for not having access to all gear, all the time.

Edited by Victor Morson, 31 March 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[Soviet Alex]

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__183264

You all might want to read this. Playtest battles are using cash values, rather than tonnage or BV.

[Victor Morson]

Soviet Alex, on 31 March 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__183264

You all might want to read this. Playtest battles are using cash values, rather than tonnage or BV.

That's really interesting; that's one option that's always been on the table, too; where the c-bills that the 'mech costs in the metagame are basically acting as it's "battle value." That's effectively how Living Legends worked as well, it's just that the metagame systems were different. i.e. if there's a 50 million cbill equipment cap, that plays the same role as BV quite effectively.

Here's hoping that's how they handle it!

[Soviet Alex]

It works for me. Some advanced tech costs almost exponentially more than what it replaces. XL engines x4, Ferro-Fibrous armour x2, etc.

[Outlaw2]

The main problem I had with puretech in NBT goes back to not properly pricing mechs and tech. NBT expected units to just take inferior IS content and have them be ok with it because of lower automation prices. However it didn't make up for the fact that you were using crappier tech and losing because of it. NBT had no real solution on how to price inferior IS tech compared to clan tech inside a match...and simply didn't have tools to do it. Sure there were some very viable IS designs, but for the most part you needed to take clan tech to be competitive as an IS unit. In some PAs, it felt like LA had more novas and scats than we did (while in CJF).

Had IS tech been properly priced, lets via a BV system, then you wouldn't feel compelled to take clan tech as an IS unit or only use a small sliver of viable IS designs.

Now puretech will segregate IS tech from Clan tech. It will obviously limit the number of potential designs. You won't take Clan ERPPC on a Atlas, clearly. However this is going to happen REGARDLESS of a BV system in place once clan content is introduced (assuming no mixed tech).

Stock battles were less fun for several reasons. Creating your own mech and using that is just more fun. The league was also based primarily on custom mechs. To suddenly use stock was jarring. We didn't sign up to a stock league. You would take to a PA a certain set of mechs. Mechs that were good custom built were not always that great in stock. So often it felt like we were gimped once a stock map was rotated in. Stock also prevented you from building a mech for a particular need. Instead you are forced to work with a strategy based off the mechs. It felt constricting, since we were so used to custom built mechs. However with BV you can still custom build mechs to suit certain needs.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 31 March 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[StaIker]

Belisarius†, on 31 March 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

Stalker, are you in favour of a hardpoint system for the mechlab, or would you rather be able to mount any weapons on any 'mech?

Yup, hardpoints. It gave each Mech character.

[StaIker]

Quote

Now puretech will segregate IS tech from Clan tech. It will obviously limit the number of potential designs. You won't take Clan ERPPC on a Atlas, clearly. However this is going to happen REGARDLESS of a BV system in place once clan content is introduced (assuming no mixed tech).

I have a hard time believing that MWO will be puretech once the clans are in. It's never been done in a MW release before and it would empty the IS factions of players almost overnight, regardless of BV. Very few people will want to stick around and enjoy the "challenge" of using inferior equipment, no matter how cheap it is. Outside of RP leagues like NBT there is almost no interest in puretech so it would be surprising for MWO to annoy the player base like that. If I had to guess I'd say that factions will use Mechs that are native to them but they will be able to fit any weapons. That eliminates the inevitable balance/favoritism issues that would result from puretech weapons.

[Victor Morson]

StaIker, on 31 March 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have a hard time believing that MWO will be puretech once the clans are in. It's never been done in a MW release before and it would empty the IS factions of players almost overnight, regardless of BV. Very few people will want to stick around and enjoy the "challenge" of using inferior equipment, no matter how cheap it is. Outside of RP leagues like NBT there is almost no interest in puretech so it would be surprising for MWO to annoy the player base like that. If I had to guess I'd say that factions will use Mechs that are native to them but they will be able to fit any weapons. That eliminates the inevitable balance/favoritism issues that would result from puretech weapons.

On the contrary, the majority of past MechWarrior games have actually been puretech, and many that were not strongly encouraged it (MW2 Mercs, for example, where Clan tech was outrageously priced and if it was blown off, it was gone - much like I was saying would be neat to see in MWO via salvage).

Again, if it's limited by faction and balanced it will be fine. Cheapness of actually fielding it will matter: If an IS pilot can field a heavy a BV equivalent that a Clan pilot can field a light on average, there will be more than enough room for puretech designs. You keep talking about what the public wants, when really, I think that's not the case at all - the only reason you have that impression is that MW4 allowed full, easy, cheap mix-teching so someone playing with puretech designs against pubby mix-techers felt handicapped. If the tech had been restricted right from the get go, you wouldn't have thought that.

If we have a BV system based on a per gun basis (such as based on mech cost), having an ER Medium take as much resource to field as an IS AC20 goes a long, long way giving both factions a niche.

Finally, one interesting (but likely not going to happen) way to balance the Clans yet retaining their superior equipment would be to limit them to a Star, which is supposed to be the balance match for an IS Company (5v12). I rather see other limitations in place so we end up with more "A star of front line 'mechs, and the rest are second line 'mechs" though.

=Outlaw=, on 31 March 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

The main problem I had with puretech in NBT goes back to not properly pricing mechs and tech. NBT expected units to just take inferior IS content and have them be ok with it because of lower automation prices. However it didn't make up for the fact that you were using crappier tech and losing because of it. NBT had no real solution on how to price inferior IS tech compared to clan tech inside a match...and simply didn't have tools to do it. Sure there were some very viable IS designs, but for the most part you needed to take clan tech to be competitive as an IS unit. In some PAs, it felt like LA had more novas and scats than we did (while in CJF).

I'm under the impression HC changed things later on, but I never felt IS tech was inferior at all in the stock NBT League, in particular around the time of Mercs. RACs, Light Gauss, Heavy Gauss, X-Pulse, etc. combined with really good chassis (Holy hell was the Wolfhound amazing) made things feel really even then. Most of the battles we fought against the Clans in NBT:M had lots of complaints from the Clan side about how overpowered the IS was. Really the only time we'd try to break out Clan tech is for Clan missile boats, because IS LRMs were so heavy they were worthless in comparison - Catapults made better X-Pulse brawlers there.

By the way for those asking, I only played early Hardcore: I didn't get to see it at it's later prime.

[Outlaw2]

StaIker, on 31 March 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have a hard time believing that MWO will be puretech once the clans are in. It's never been done in a MW release before and it would empty the IS factions of players almost overnight, regardless of BV. Very few people will want to stick around and enjoy the "challenge" of using inferior equipment, no matter how cheap it is. Outside of RP leagues like NBT there is almost no interest in puretech so it would be surprising for MWO to annoy the player base like that. If I had to guess I'd say that factions will use Mechs that are native to them but they will be able to fit any weapons. That eliminates the inevitable balance/favoritism issues that would result from puretech weapons.

I'm kinda surprised you really think they will go mixed tech. Im counting on the devs NOT being CBT literalists, but mixtech is a pretty big stretch of CBT, and so far all indications show they are sticking to it as close as possible. How will they handle IS double heatsinks, IS FF, IS XL engines, IS endosteel, ect? All these higher tech IS mech components are inferior to clan versions. Even if you can mount clan weapons on IS chasis.. it will still be inferior to a clan equivalent. Unless they just throw BT out the window and give IS and Clan all equally the same stuff. BV can be used to balance Clan and IS battles (plus I think Clan side should have less players, since they will generally have a much higher BV). Even if 75% of players go clan for the CLANPOWER, they can all stay there as long as the matches are balanced via BV.

Its going to be interesting to see how they handle the Clans either way.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 31 March 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Belisarius1]

StaIker, on 31 March 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yup, hardpoints. It gave each Mech character.

See, I don't quite get that. Puretech is really just another kind of hardpoint; IS 'mechs have IS beam slots instead of just beam slots. It certainly gives 'mechs character. I understand the concern that clan 'mechs will be overpowered, but that's a slightly different issue. There's nothing wrong with puretech in principle.

Problems occur when clan stuff is demonstrably superior to the IS stuff, and I think it's possible to avoid that without sanctioning mixtech. BV does so, although I still don't like BV. Lower tonnage for clanner in clan vs. IS battles also does so, and is something NBT never implemented for reasons I'm not quite sure of. Personally, the best (if sacrilegious) way would be to accelerate development of the IS's power weapons like lightgauss, heavygauss and RACs, and then adjust balance so that they can use those to compete on their own terms.

Also, mixtech equates to pay-to-win for the IS until the market is saturated, and I think that's a terrible idea with MWO's system.

[FireStorm2]

Belisarius†, on 31 March 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Lower tonnage for clanner in clan vs. IS battles also does so, and is something NBT never implemented for reasons I'm not quite sure of.

I seem to remember it was occasionally suggested in NBT-IV, but always shot down because IS units could still use salvaged Clan mechs. In effect you could see IS units fielding 500 tons of Nova Cats while Clan units could only field 400, or whatever number was suggested.

You could compensate for it by simply making Clan mechs weigh more for purposes of determining drops, but that idea never gained traction either.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Asymetric drops would seem to be one way. I'm not so sure that you would get a massive exodus to the Clans. I do think that they should go puretech.

[StaIker]

Quote

Problems occur when clan stuff is demonstrably superior to the IS stuff

This.

In MW4 it was and so puretech was rediculous and game breaking. If MWO makes clan and IS tech essentially perform the same then I'd be fine with it in theory.

[Outlaw2]

Victor Morson, on 31 March 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I'm under the impression HC changed things later on, but I never felt IS tech was inferior at all in the stock NBT League, in particular around the time of Mercs. RACs, Light Gauss, Heavy Gauss, X-Pulse, etc. combined with really good chassis (Holy hell was the Wolfhound amazing) made things feel really even then. Most of the battles we fought against the Clans in NBT:M had lots of complaints from the Clan side about how overpowered the IS was. Really the only time we'd try to break out Clan tech is for Clan missile boats, because IS LRMs were so heavy they were worthless in comparison - Catapults made better X-Pulse brawlers there.

By the way for those asking, I only played early Hardcore: I didn't get to see it at it's later prime.

The really good IS weapons were ones that didn't have clan equivalents ...which allowed the devs to make them a little bit more powerful then they would have been if a clan equivalent was around. There being a Clan version suppressed the IS version's stats, since "we all know" they should be inferior. Almost all good IS mechs were good due to their hitbox geometry or secondary non-BT stats. Later on mods messed with the numbers to make some of IS stuff better, but it too was stretching CBT. Im actually perfectly fine with it if they go that route, but something tells me they won't. Most people on these forums probably would raise hell for deviating from BT.

Thanny had 360 TT, thin CT and could boat light gauss (a weapon clans couldn't match). Bushy had a tough hitbox layout and could take a decent loadout...but without the geometry it would have been meh. Same with the wolfhoud. Thin torsos, fast (lag shield) and yea could take a good amount of lasers, but without the fist two it would have been benched. Same with catapults, tough torso layout...and as a Xpulse boat you could ignore the arms. Don't get me wrong these were good mechs, but pretty much all the top teams of NBT throughout its lifespan took predominately clan mechs; DCx, Wolf, =CJF=, Ice Hellions, ect...There were very good teams that took mostly IS mechs (AK and HRR/GDL at the top of the list) but I always felt they were handicapped for not taking more clan mechs.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 31 March 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[StaIker]

One thing I hope we can all agree on is the need to see the map and conditions before we are committed to a Mech. Any idea of balance goes completely out the window if a player can build for example a powerful infighter Atlas and then gets dumped onto a desert flatland. Same with a missile boat being dumped into a city map, their on paper BV has been reduced to near zero. There are lots of bad ways it could turn out.

[Belisarius1]

Soviet Alex, on 31 March 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__183264

You all might want to read this. Playtest battles are using cash values, rather than tonnage or BV.

If you mean this quote:

Paul Inouye, on 30 March 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

On my way to the test area... and my apparent -5,000,000CB balance... thanks Kyle.

...I wouldn't be reading too much into that. To me, he's talking about balance in the sense of bank balance. They're certainly using C-bills to purchase 'mechs, but that doesn't mean they're the lobby factor, and that's what's important here.



Also,

Victor Morson, on 31 March 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I'm under the impression HC changed things later on, but I never felt IS tech was inferior at all in the stock NBT League, in particular around the time of Mercs. RACs, Light Gauss, Heavy Gauss, X-Pulse, etc. combined with really good chassis (Holy hell was the Wolfhound amazing) made things feel really even then. Most of the battles we fought against the Clans in NBT:M had lots of complaints from the Clan side about how overpowered the IS was. Really the only time we'd try to break out Clan tech is for Clan missile boats, because IS LRMs were so heavy they were worthless in comparison - Catapults made better X-Pulse brawlers there.

By the way for those asking, I only played early Hardcore: I didn't get to see it at it's later prime.

Random HC essay, just fyi:

I always thought late-game HC was pretty well balanced. I never played mercs competitively until HC, so my ability to compare is limited, but Clan vs IS always felt about the same. The clans were stronger overall, but the IS had specific niches and a collection of excellent chassis that they could use to compete.

In particular, the clans had no direct answer to lightgauss at extreme range, and the combination of RAC5s, MRMs and heavygauss was brutal at ~700m. In a point-blank furball, the IS's by-and-large tougher standard engine designs as well as a few 'mechs with absurd geometry also put them up. In comparison, the clans were dominant in the all-important 1000-750m bracket, and again in controlled <500m fights thanks to ATMHEs, HLLs and better LBX boating.

Personally, I think there were two main puretech imbalances in HC. The first was the IS's lack of a good ECM/BAP scout heavier than the raven. The clans had shadowcats, black lanners and even the hellbringer, and that gave them complete information superiority. The second was that UAC5s and 2s were phenomenal, but were really boatable only by clan designs. That coupled with ERLPL and ATMMs meant the clans could choose to give up their range advantage to fight fire with fire in the mid bracket if they wished to, but the IS had no such option at long range.


HC was actually an interesting case study, because the league went on for so long that by the end of it, the IS houses had just about every clan factory they could want, and vice versa.

What you saw at the end was probably 70% clantech. Clan scouts were mandatory in almost every dec, and clan 'mechs were used in most of the long range shooter roles. Heavier drops became progressively more clan dominated, as well, because those naturally tend to long range. Despite that, the best IS chassis were extremely common, and most of those abused one or more of the IS niches and/or were just straight-up zombies. All the second-rate IS stuff fell by the wayside, as did designs that were actually quite good, but tried to fight the clans on their own terms and so ended up being outclassed.

Edited by Belisarius†, 31 March 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Belisarius†, on 31 March 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Personally, I think there were two main puretech imbalances in HC. The first was the IS's lack of a good ECM/BAP scout heavier than the raven. The clans had shadowcats, black lanners and even the hellbringer, and that gave them complete information superiority. The second was that UAC5s and 2s were phenomenal, but were really boatable only by clan designs. That coupled with ERLPL and ATMMs meant the clans could choose to give up their range advantage to fight fire with fire in the mid bracket if they wished to, but the IS had no such option at long range.

Wow, pre-HC the IS had the Raven, Black Knight and Atlas with BAP/ECM, leaving the BK to be a pretty good heavy "go with the lance" kind of recon or raider, and the Clans had the Loki; unless my memory is failing, they lacked another ECM/BAP combo mech, having to go with one or the other. I could be wrong here, I dealt with very little Clantech so my memory is a little fuzzy.

That's nuts if those designs lost their ability to combo.

I kind of wish I had a chance to play HC to see the UAC2/5 with the buffs applied; they sound like they became the dominant design, which is sure to drastically change the whole dynamic of the game. It sounds like they were abit too extremely buffed, but it's a fine line to walk - do you know if there's a youtube video floating around of them? Would be neat to post in the AC thread.

=Outlaw=, on 31 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

The really good IS weapons were ones that didn't have clan equivalents ...which allowed the devs to make them a little bit more powerful then they would have been if a clan equivalent was around. There being a Clan version suppressed the IS version's stats, since "we all know" they should be inferior. Almost all good IS mechs were good due to their hitbox geometry or secondary non-BT stats. Later on mods messed with the numbers to make some of IS stuff better, but it too was stretching CBT. Im actually perfectly fine with it if they go that route, but something tells me they won't. Most people on these forums probably would raise hell for deviating from BT.

Definitely, the design of the 'mechs and their profiles was one of the huge reasons IS 'mechs were viable. Likewise, the niche guns (something MWO doesn't have the luxary of, given they're all 8-20 years off) were definitely a big thing. You're really spot on about why the IS chassis were superior, despite losing some tons to their basic weaponry like LBX ACs.

Still, I really think the IS brought in actually superior lasers; despite the inferior range, they generated so little heat you could be fighting long after a Novacat had run out of cooland and then some - not to mention the niche weapon of X-Pulse that were devastating. The PPC could be argued to have the same advantage, if you could push the bracket you wanted to fight in.

Basically when all things were accounted for, I always felt like vanilla Mercs always felt like this to me:

Extreme long range: IS, Light Gauss Rifle and Uziel jumpsnipers
Long Range: Clans, ER PPC, ER Large, superior Gauss
Medium Range: Inner Sphere outright dominance, with RAC/HGR/XPL/Low heat lasers/low heat PPCs
Close Range: Inner Sphere for damage soaking due to profiles, Clan for firepower due to weight

As long as you could keep people in that medium range bracket primarily (using Bushwackers and stuff to stun their advance), it could turn absolutely nasty for the Clans very, very fast.

=Outlaw=, on 31 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong these were good mechs, but pretty much all the top teams of NBT throughout its lifespan took predominately clan mechs; DCx, Wolf, =CJF=, Ice Hellions, ect...There were very good teams that took mostly IS mechs (AK and HRR/GDL at the top of the list) but I always felt they were handicapped for not taking more clan mechs.

Those were definitely some of the best players in NBT, but it is interesting to note that CJF when we played them briefly actually took about 30% IS 'mechs in almost every drop to push the LGR. I heard Wolf was also fond of trying to field Bushwackers as much as possible. The Aces at our prime fought a few different Clan units, focusing heavily on IS energy boats, damage soaks and niche weapons. The wolfhound's profile helped it a lot, but we also turned it into a mini-Novacat (3 Large, 3 Medium Lasers was the one I drove) so it allowed us to do a ludicrous amount of hit scan damage.

Anyway, I know I'm going off on the good ol' days here talking about how MW4 handled the Clans, which is getting abit off topic. I think Living Legends is likely the model, if any, that MWO wants to look at. The fact that the Clan lights take as much resource to field as some IS Heavies there drastically changes the dynamic - a Mad Cat Mark II can take as much as an entire lance of mediums. We played a bunch of organized games against one of the few highly organized teams that played MWL (ELH, a bunch of cool folks from Russia) and I can honestly say the Clan vs IS balance was pretty well done, something that isn't really apparent in most public matches. It doesn't really nerf the Clans into playing with all lights, but gives them a bunch of options (A bunch of specialist lights, some big assaults backed by mediums, etc) while generally allowing the IS team to field superior tonnage. The result is the Clan force ends up having more flexibility and the IS force has more durability through virtue of weight; it evens out well.

MWLL has the advantage of niche weapons as well, but it's not as vital of a difference because of the cost balance. Taking an IS missile boat like the Catapult or Mauler was a viable option here, because a clan Vulture that can carry superior LRMs is going to cost almost 50% more than yours. It made every IS option feel viable for it's price point and I think is a far better way to go than "a bunch of subtle, debatable advantages."

Fake edit: If they decide to make players repurchase gear that's destroyed and Clan tech can only be salvaged, not purchased (possibly outside of some pay "random salvage pack" or something), I WOULD be in favor of allowing mixtech for mercenary units. I think that'd be pretty neat and would both buff the price of the 'mech (and thus make it more expensive to field) and be a serious risk/reward mechanic for the player choosing to do it. If I managed to salvage enough Clan ER PPCs to turn my Awesome into a top-tier killing machine, there's no way I'd break it out in all but the biggest fights against great players, for fear I'd get my arm blown off and lose one. Not sure how they're doing salvage/repairs, hopefully they'll bring up this stuff in the next reveal.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 April 2012 - 03:16 AM.