90 replies to this topic

[Listless Nomad]

Fecal, on 08 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Does Death from Above count as melee? Is there damage from collisions (at a certain speed)?

There will be an ability to charge opposing mechs - and DFA has been confirmed as well in one of the dev blogs so yes to both questions.

[Solis Obscuri]

The real question is, will we be able to propel enemy 'mechs across the battlefield with an Unrelenting Force shout?

[Tannhauser Gate]

Listless Nomad, on 08 March 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

This might be a troll Lake, but soon - there will be more of them and they will be serious. Screens and gameplay and release are gonna bring a lot of new people in - people who don't have any experience with BT. While this is good, a lot of those will want MWO to conform to current trends, with more arcade playstyle and elements from other franchises.

It's up to us to make sure that this game stays financially viable and well trafficked without needing to nerf the game or add in beam swords or kill streaks.

(stands and salutes as Nomad plays the epic violin of awesome wisdom) My god how could I have been so misguided. Thank you, Nomad. Thank you.

[Listless Nomad]

LakeDaemon, on 08 March 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

(stands and salutes as Nomad plays the epic violin of awesome wisdom) My god how could I have been so misguided. Thank you, Nomad. Thank you.

Coulda done without the sarcasm. What I said wasn't meant just for you but ok.

Edited by Listless Nomad, 08 March 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Jet Morgan]

Having been brought up with the tabletop game and progressed through most of the MW games I have always wanted to see some kind of hand to hand combat system on the video game side. A mech's fists are somewhat obsolete if they cannot wrench up a tree like an oversized baseball bat or punch an opponent when the AC ammo bin is exhausted ... and I loved mechs like the axman - melee weapons as built in systems counted towards the payload of a mech thus reducing it's ranged capability seemed fair to me as it would have to be deployed where you needed to use cover to close the attack. Mechs like the scorpion, urbanmech, and to some degree the imp, locust and catapult were very honest designs IMHO as they look just like a walking weapon platforms: somewhat silly looking sometimes I will give you that, but very functional. Most mechs are humanoid in form and designed to psychologically have an effect on the opponent I would posit rather than rely on how well it can clothesline another mech - thinking of the clan diamond shark piranah: a tiny 20 ton mech but still quite intimidating looking (anyone? maybe just me then). I think I am getting off topic here ... anyway;

Until a H2H system comes along I will be content just imagining that the collision damage I just caused and broke the opponent's cockpit was some kind of deft rabbit punch on my mech's part, and I am sure we would all prefer the game developers did something well rather than something half-baked that the technology cannot quite honor effectively. Oh but to feel the full weight of an assault mech blow as it powered though the heat sinks of the mech in front would be grand

<climbs back into rose tinted cockpit>

[LordDeathStrike]

well the reason the atlas, and other mechs, have actuating fingered hands, is back in the star league, and post clan invasion days (aka lostech) the atlas in particular could field a battle axe. the atlas battle axe was a considerable item, it weighed many tons, but its edge could cleave ferro fibrous like butter, and in a pinch it could be 2 arm hurled more then a few meters with significant impact, if not dubious accuracy.

hatchet man has a choppy arm as does another mech built with the same idea.

the atlas was as example again, could also field heavy weaponry with limited non immediately repleneshable shots in its hands, these or the axe could cause an atlas to exceed 100 tons, so you would lose speed when carrying them, but you had significant firepower until you ditched them as well.

the atlas guns i know ive seen in the battletech show consisted of a large axe, a gatling ac cannon, an lbx ac style pump shotgun, a battle rifle in ac and laser flavors, and a rocket launcher that was good for one massive salvo and then disgaurded and left for the salvage teams to reclaim and rearm.

the battle master mechs are also renowned for using disgaurdable limited rifles. mechs not built with hands at all rely solely on built in weapon systems.

just imagine a samurai style mech designed with heavy ams, anti laser armor and a massive daikitana for urban combat, he comes around a corner and with a single massive overhead slash, sheers your atlas in two down the spine, muahahaha, unless you had the battle axe, at which point hes like "o ****" cause you block his swing, and then upper cut him and proceed to have a nasty knuckledragger of a brawl.

Edited by LordDeathStrike, 11 March 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[Dr Killinger]

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Was hoping to have some similar features from gundam like laser swords and such, maybe some day =/

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[xSNAKEx]

Heres how I think they can implement a type of melee combat that sits well with the game. Implement a "lunge" button, and while holding it move your mouse in the direction you want to lunge toward. If you hit with your shoulder, you will deal more damage to the enemy than you do to yourself.

If you miss your lunge however, you fall on the ground and take damage anyway.

This is not as unrealistic as it may sound. All the mech would have to do is purpose lean toward a side like they do when moving, but not take a next step in that direction, and when the mech starts to fall over maximum thrust to the legs to propel the mech in that direction.

[Rattlehead NZ]

Also mechs have hands as they can be used for logistics by doing heavy lifting. Makes sense to be able do more with them then just fight.

The only ones i remember with hand held guns are the light scout mechs such as the Stinger and Wasps. They are old models and weigh in at something like 25 ton.

Guess you could add a bf3 knife kill sort of animation. Don't mean it will kill the mech but go into a preset grab/punch/pull mode. And depends if you grab from the rear or front. Alot of work and programming though but would be cool.

[VegetaL]

i would love to see Hatchetman even with just chopping motion, running up on a assault whacking in the back.. Then u would probably die.

[MagicLlama]

I just don't think melee is all that appealing. It sounds more like "I'm bored with shooting things" than "This is a mearningful and important part of mech combat." Part of it is that I planned Clans, so there was very little reason to engage in melee unless I was cornered. But I think that melee in the game would be more trouble than it is worth. Also, many of the people I have read who have liked melee combat are either exaggerating the effectiveness of melee weapons or are just reliving good games they have enjoyed and want to recreate it in an electronic environment. I haven't played in a while, but, last I saw, swords were ineffectual and were made to soothe the egos of Draconis Combine pilots. There isn't an instant kill melee weapon (well, a mace with triple strength myomer was pretty much one as I recall...), and if there was then why would anyone not charge in and attack with it? Most mechs have enough armor to get within melee range, so why wouldn't we all cast down our lasers and engage in melee combat?

I don't think that melee combat should ever be part of the first-person simulation style of Battletech games. It is too out of place. It would either be weak or overpowered, and if it is weak then no one will use it. If it is overpowered, then it will be overused and reviled. I don't think that there can be a satisfying solution implementing it.

Someone should just make an arcade fighting game with the mechs instead, to balance out the ignoring of melee in all the other fine electronic Battletech games.

[Tramalhas]

I think that melee definatly has a place in battletech, and hence a place in mechwarrior. ID rather have no melee then a badly implemented one, however.

And for laserswords, or whatever, they just dont fit the "feel" of battletech, in my opinion.

[Jet Morgan]

Agreed - laser swords would just not sit well with the 'gritty' feel of the Mechwarrior / Battletech Universe and besides: the heat generated would probably be ludicrous.

... come to think of it Lorddeathstrike - I seem to recall maces were an option too - or have I been inhaling coolant vents too long?

[Strum Wealh]

Jet Morgan, on 11 March 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Agreed - laser swords would just not sit well with the 'gritty' feel of the Mechwarrior / Battletech Universe and besides: the heat generated would probably be ludicrous.

... come to think of it Lorddeathstrike - I seem to recall maces were an option too - or have I been inhaling coolant vents too long?

List of Melee Weapons

MagicLlama, on 11 March 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

I just don't think melee is all that appealing. It sounds more like "I'm bored with shooting things" than "This is a mearningful and important part of mech combat." Part of it is that I planned Clans, so there was very little reason to engage in melee unless I was cornered. But I think that melee in the game would be more trouble than it is worth. Also, many of the people I have read who have liked melee combat are either exaggerating the effectiveness of melee weapons or are just reliving good games they have enjoyed and want to recreate it in an electronic environment. I haven't played in a while, but, last I saw, swords were ineffectual and were made to soothe the egos of Draconis Combine pilots. There isn't an instant kill melee weapon (well, a mace with triple strength myomer was pretty much one as I recall...), and if there was then why would anyone not charge in and attack with it? Most mechs have enough armor to get within melee range, so why wouldn't we all cast down our lasers and engage in melee combat?

I don't think that melee combat should ever be part of the first-person simulation style of Battletech games. It is too out of place. It would either be weak or overpowered, and if it is weak then no one will use it. If it is overpowered, then it will be overused and reviled. I don't think that there can be a satisfying solution implementing it.

Someone should just make an arcade fighting game with the mechs instead, to balance out the ignoring of melee in all the other fine electronic Battletech games.

Melee (like charging/ramming, DFA, and every other weapon option) has its place and time, and is of questionable (if any) effectiveness outside of the situations for which it was intended.

Quote

Unlike the impromptu clubs often found on the battlefields, these weapons are purpose built by weapon manufacturers and offer better balance and control to the warrior using them. Many of these weapons are usually used by the gladiators participating in the Solaris Games. In the scavenger culture of the Succession Wars the use of a melee weapon (particularly the Hatchet) allowed a MechWarrior to remove whole limbs from an enemy.

After all, it doesn't make much sense to try to snipe with a small laser, right?

Canonically:
Hatchets impart one unit of damage for each 5 tons of the carrying BattleMech's weight.
Swords (produced by the Draconis Combine in 3058 because they apparently felt that hatchets were too "crude" ) impart one unit of damage for each 10 tons of the carrying BattleMech's weight.
Maces impart two units of damage for each 5 tons of the carrying BattleMech's weight.

A hit from an Axman's hatchet (without TSM) could produce 13 units of damage - enough to decapitate another BattleMech in one strike.

xSNAKEx, on 11 March 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Heres how I think they can implement a type of melee combat that sits well with the game. Implement a "lunge" button, and while holding it move your mouse in the direction you want to lunge toward. If you hit with your shoulder, you will deal more damage to the enemy than you do to yourself.

If you miss your lunge however, you fall on the ground and take damage anyway.

This is not as unrealistic as it may sound. All the mech would have to do is purpose lean toward a side like they do when moving, but not take a next step in that direction, and when the mech starts to fall over maximum thrust to the legs to propel the mech in that direction.

TechManual (on page 40) actually describes melee combat from the MechWarrior's perspective as:

Quote

Punching is trivial: click the punch mode switch, aim the crosshairs, and pull the punch trigger.
Ditto for using clubs and hatchets.

Canonically, the pilot selects a target, ensures that the target is in range, and issues the melee command; the 'Mech itself takes care of the rest...

[Jet Morgan]

Nice info thanks - not got my manuals any more ... was "I am Jade Falcon" maneuver ever detailed?

[Strum Wealh]

Jet Morgan, on 11 March 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Nice info thanks - not got my manuals any more ... was "I am Jade Falcon" maneuver ever detailed?

The Sarna page on jump jets indicates that the IAJFM is mentioned in Tactical Operations...

[Brakkyn]

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I know that there are bipedal robots but is there any weaponry in the form of rifles/guns that the mech can hold in its hands? also will there be any melee items available?

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Was hoping to have some similar features from gundam like laser swords and such, maybe some day =/

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Not sure how a steel sword can penetrate the 18 tonnes of armor these mechs have. If anything a beam saber/laser sword would fit the bill for a melee weapon. Besides they could spice up the game just a tad

No, no, no, over 9,000 times, no.

[Seabear]

The draw of BT and Mw is in large part because the weaponry has a "real" feel to it.The militaries of many countries are workimg on laser weapons. The US Navy is working on a rail gun with some success. If anything, the misssle weapons of the BT universe seem to be pale copies of weapons currently in use. These are things we can "see" develop over time into the systems of the BT future. Laser swords and such are fantasy creations and have no place in a Universe based on such "gritty fact". What fits in "a galaxty far far away" just does not seem proper in the IS of 3048.
As to the effectiveness of swords and the like, take a look at what happened with the introduction of full plate armor on the battle fields of midieval Europe. The swords got dented , dulled or broken. The knights simply picked up a mace or an ax and started to hurt each other. A lucky hit might split the armor, but those are few and far between. The real damage was the denting of the armor and the soft tissue under it.
We are going to get lots of people coming in that have never heard of BattleTech or MechWarrior, we have to educate them (or help them learn for themselves) the realities of this universe. Once they figure out that this is not Star Wars or Star Trek or a Japanese cartoon, they will either come to love it as most of us do or they will leave. Those who stay we welcome as our own. Those who go, we hope they will find a game that lets them hack away with light swords to their hearts content. No hard feelings either way.

Edited by Seabear, 16 March 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[Miroku2235]

Melee weapons have a risk all their own though. In one battle I fielded a Nightsky with great efficiency, hitting tanks and mechs in the back/side with the hatchet and salvos of pulse lasers.

That was until I sank my axe into the rear torso of a mech and hit the LRM ammo stockpile there, and both he and I went up in a fireball of shrapnel and death.

[Orzorn]

As an aside to this conversation, I just outright came out in the Mech Warfare Q & A and asked "Will melee be present in the game. Not charging, not DFA, but actual melee."

Hopefully they'll give us a straight answer. I personally would be thrilled to see melee properly implemented. I would absolutely KILL to be able to pilot an Axman or Hatchetman.