90 replies to this topic

[Kanatta Jing]

It's true, Battletech was weeaboo before weeaboo was a word white boys knew.

[Ettibber]

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Was hoping to have some similar features from gundam like laser swords and such, maybe some day =/

gundam and battle tech are highly divergent.

[Sarriss]

Hikaru, on 25 June 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Um, what are you talking about? The core fan base of people like myself who used to play tabletop are not against the Japanese approach of robots with hands. The creator of Battletech was not against this "Japanese" approach. It's directly what inspired Battletech. And, many of the original Battlemechs were in fact licensed "Japanese approach" robots. Stinger? Robot with hands and gun. Phoenix Hawk? Robot with hands and gun. Griffin? Robot with hands and gun. Wolverine? Robot with hands and gun. Stinger LAM? Wasp LAM? Phoenix Hawk LAM? Robots with hands and guns that *transformed*. This doesn't even touch the huge list of anthropomorphic mechs that had mounted gunlike weapons, or just shot pew pew lasers from their fists from non-visible laser ports. Stop this anti-"Japanese approach" hogwash.

Just so we're clear, I'm not anti-japanese. I love AC and Gundam (well, the good ones) but if you look around, there are a lot of posts from people who are very much against the Armoured Cores and the Gundams and feel that BT is the only true mech property. Besides, lets be realistic, the mechs you've listed aren't your first line, "everyone who vaguely knows what BT is, knows those mechs" Besides, I didn't say BT didn't have ANY mechs with hands, I'm just saying that wasn't the style they were going for. AC's are using swords and other melee weapons quite regularly whereas very few do in the BT universe. All I'm saying is the overall tone and style of the mechs is divergent of the Japanese model, regardless how influenced the creators of the BT universe were.

[colatruck]

Hador, on 08 March 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Q. Will MechWarrior® Online™ have Mech combat? A. At this point in time we are not looking at combat. We may revisit combat if we can design something that is fun and does not compromise the overall gameplay experience of picking flowers. from http://mwomercs.com/support#faq

Fixed

[Silvereagle11]

I just finished reading MechWarrior Dark Age: Fire At Will in which Melissa Steiner declares war on the Free Worlds and in it, a woman under Roderick Frost/Steiner pilots a Violator (picture in the link) http://images.trolla...ures/136256.jpg and she rushes a Marauder and takes the drill hand and shoves it through the cockpit of the Marauder, killing the MechWarrior inside. She also manages to just land her Mech on top of the fallen Marauder as well and that effectively took her out of the battle.

This is what i imagine when somebody mentions a Melee mech. A mech that has a physical weapon, not held in a hand but actually attached to the torso of the aforementioned Mech. Anything they make in MechWarrior Online would be something along the line of what is in the link....

[Aesaar]

Keep Gundam away from Battletech. I've no desire to see BT ruined with idiotic anime crap.

The Unseen are enough. I'm of the opinion that the Warhammer is the only good mech design to ever come out of Japan.

Edited by Aesaar, 25 June 2012 - 06:46 AM.

[Landeraxe]

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Not sure how a steel sword can penetrate the 18 tonnes of armor these mechs have. If anything a beam saber/laser sword would fit the bill for a melee weapon. Besides they could spice up the game just a tad

Ugh. Spice it up with a distinct lack of realism. No thank you.

Edited by Landeraxe, 25 June 2012 - 06:53 AM.

[Holski77]

Skillex, on 08 March 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I know that there are bipedal robots but is there any weaponry in the form of rifles/guns that the mech can hold in its hands? also will there be any melee items available?

Let's not go there, I got over the power rangers a few years ago

[GHQCommander]

Please no melee combat. Leave that to Transformers!

[Alizabeth Aijou]

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So that mech that can barely run 70kph and needs to devote several tons of internal space to gyroscopes to not topple over is apparently able to graciously swing a bladed weapon, with greater speeds than it's legs are able to move, which magically does more damage to armor than a blunt weapon or just outright ramming the target at a greater speed, while not breaking itself.

May I remind people that CANON has a piece of fluff of some MechWarrior doing a handstand with a BattleMaster?
Took a lot of effort, but it's possible, just not in combat conditions.

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Given that every mech could do it, either with a "hand" or once it's weapons are destroyed anyways, it'd be a good backup weapon for close combat brawling, but never a means for itself.

By the time a 'Mech's weapons are destroyed, punching will be the last thing on your mind (really, your 'Mech would be close to falling apart due to internal structure damage and lack of armour).

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Um, what are you talking about? The core fan base of people like myself who used to play tabletop are not against the Japanese approach of robots with hands. The creator of Battletech was not against this "Japanese" approach. It's directly what inspired Battletech. And, many of the original Battlemechs were in fact licensed "Japanese approach" robots. Stinger? Robot with hands and gun. Phoenix Hawk? Robot with hands and gun. Griffin? Robot with hands and gun. Wolverine? Robot with hands and gun. Stinger LAM? Wasp LAM? Phoenix Hawk LAM? Robots with hands and guns that *transformed*. This doesn't even touch the huge list of anthropomorphic mechs that had mounted gunlike weapons, or just shot pew pew lasers from their fists from non-visible laser ports. Stop this anti-"Japanese approach" hogwash.

Eh, BattleTech is closer to Armoured Trooper VOTOMS than it is to Gundam, though.
I'm fine with mêlée combat, though.
Gimme that No-Dachi!

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 25 June 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Papertarget]

In the books, and the tech manuals,, the use of hands was for mainly lifting and carrying. It wasn't for picking up weapons. Even the Battlemaster description states that the "hand held PPC" was detachable if it got damaged. However, it was a process, as the weapons draw energy directly from the mech's fusion core. Yes, in a pinch the Mechwarrior could pick up an item to use as a club, but this wasn't the norm, but the exception. Mechs like the Archer and Atlas, had "battle-fists", and they are designed to be used in melee. That being the case, it would be redundant to have anything like an ax added.

Since the main thing that Battletech does is add internal areas that are filled through the use of things, external and pick up weapons are not really appropriate. Also, having weapons that you can pick up and fire, would both overbalance and make the mech overweight. The internal structure is built for only a certain amount of stress. Adding more weight would cause damage. Plus the arm wouldn't have the targeting capability for the weapons. So it would be like picking up a firearm and just firing from the hip, which would be ineffective at best.

When you go to the novels, you need to understand that it isn't really Cannon. It is an interpretation of the writer. They take liberties to make the story more engaging. So you can have certain effects that are a good read, but not really part of the Cannon of Battletech.

Light-swords should never be added to the BT Universe. They are not sustainable. First, it is a weapon that would have little weight for the damage, and second is they are not really doable with the tech that is available.

[Suralin]

I've done a fair amount of thinking about the possibility of melee combat in a MechWarrior game -- purely an intellectual exercise, really, but it seems a lot more pertinent now that a new game's finally in the works again.

IMO it's workable, and would probably be downright entertaining to pull off. For many years I've had an image in my head of a prospective trailer/cutscene/machinima, wherein an Atlas beats a Thor-C to death with the ruined corpse of an Urbanmech. I just can't see that not being awesome.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

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Mechs like the Archer and Atlas, had "battle-fists", and they are designed to be used in melee. That being the case, it would be redundant to have anything like an ax added.

Other than for the vastly increased damage and/or accuracy?
A standard punch attack has no to-hit bonus and does tonnage/10 damage.
So an Atlas punching someone does 10 damage if it hits.
Same Atlas mounting a hatchet would deal 20 damage with a +1 to-hit bonus.
Same Atlas mounting a sword would deal 11 damage with a +2 to-hit bonus.
Throw in active TSM and it becomes very nasty to have a melee weapon - enough to ruin the side torso/arm on an Atlas.

[Strum Wealh]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 25 June 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

May I remind people that CANON has a piece of fluff of some MechWarrior doing a handstand with a BattleMaster?
Took a lot of effort, but it's possible, just not in combat conditions.

I don't know about "handstand with a BattleMaster", but...


From the last section of chapter 20 of Falcon Guard (pgs. 117-118):

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Joanna came into Aidan's office one day. "Go to your window, Star Colonel," she said.

Looking out, he saw the entire Falcon Guards on the field, all the pilots in their 'Mechs, all the Elementals in their battle armor. MechWarrior Diana stood on a recently constructed platform. At a signal from Joanna, she gestured toward the assembled troops.

In almost a single precise movement, all the BattleMechs, all the Elementals, raised their left arms to a chest-high position. This was followed by the right arms, which went past the chest position and raised up, stopping at an oblique angle, all of them in approximately the same position. Then each arm was lowered separately.

At the next signal from Diana, each of the BattleMech torsos inclined first to the right, stopped simultaneously, then in synchronization, inclined to the left. After holding the pose for a moment, all the BattleMechs returned to the upright position.

These were just the beginning of nearly an hour of precise drills, sometimes just the BattleMechs, sometimes just the Elementals. At the end, they formed into marching units and left the field in a precision drill.

Aidan, who had been spellbound by the demonstration, finally turned to Joanna and said, "I am impressed. But just what in the name of Kerensky was happening there?"

"Well, in one sense, you have just witnessed the universe's first BattleMech calisthenic drill. In another, you have seen I have done my job. You can go into battle with some confidence in the Falcon Guards. They are still a bunch of aging or eccentric warriors, but they are now a unit. Sir."
"I have seen your work over the last two weeks, Star Commander. I have known for some time that your mission was a success. And in good time, it seems. Our orders are to proceed to Tukayyid in two days. I appreciate what you have done, Joanna."

Joanna did not acknowledge either the credit or the familiar use of her name. As usual, Aidan could not be sure what she was thinking. She probably hated him as much as ever.

"At the beginning of this," he said, "you did not think much of my plan. What do you say now?"
"The plan was chancy, but it worked."
"Thanks to you, Star Commander."
"That is also true."

Even the hoity-toity, holier-than-thou, "our 'mechs do not need hands and we thumb our collective nose at the very notion of melee" Clanners have canonically taken the time to demonstrate that BattleMechs are indeed rather nimble machines (for their size).
Granted, they are not nearly as nimble or agile as even an average Mobile Suit (much less high-performance MS, like most Gundams) or Armored Core, but BattleMechs are far from the plodding, sluggish, undexterous machines some seem to think (or desire) them to be.

Melee combat is far from unthinkable in terms of BT/MW canon, and the Devs themselves have stated that they would consider revisiting the motion of adding it "if we can design something that is fun and does not compromise the overall gameplay experience".
The presence of the option for (well-implemented) melee combat would not, in and of itself, "compromise the overall gameplay experience"; it would enhance it.
Given the demonstrated popularity of certain melee-themed 'Mechs (most notably the Hatchetman and Axman, both of which have more than one variant available as of 3049), it seems more likely that it is an option that would be explored than dismissed...

[Papertarget]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 25 June 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Other than for the vastly increased damage and/or accuracy?
A standard punch attack has no to-hit bonus and does tonnage/10 damage.
So an Atlas punching someone does 10 damage if it hits.
Same Atlas mounting a hatchet would deal 20 damage with a +1 to-hit bonus.
Same Atlas mounting a sword would deal 11 damage with a +2 to-hit bonus.
Throw in active TSM and it becomes very nasty to have a melee weapon - enough to ruin the side torso/arm on an Atlas.

OK. A Sword or an Ax would not add "vastly increased damage", nor would it increase accuracy. First, the Atlas and the Archer are very strong mechs. Their punch damage is based upon the Kinetic energy that is imparted through the battle fist and supported through the structure of the arm. (One of the reason why DFA causes damage to the mech that does it is because the falling mech isn't able to transfer the inertia more effectively, but that is another story.) But that damage is also limited by the speed of the mech. (That old Speed + Mass = Inertia thing.) The only thing that a Melee weapon would add, is a striking edge. However, that edge would be lost with the first strike. Also, the Ax and the Sword would have no structure that would absorb the strike. They would more then likely stretch or shatter. So the weapon would be deformed, or lost with the first strike. (If it was built into the arm like the Axeman or Hatchetman, then there might be a different outcome, but that is also not part of this discussion.) So IF a mech did receive the "damage potential" that was said, it would be only once, and realistically, it wouldn't add much more damage.

The second point you made was accuracy. The Atlas and the Archer have dedicated targeting systems. It is designed to cover the weapons that are placed into the system. They are not set up for the use of the Sword or the Ax. Both of the Mechs I stated would be flailing around with the weapon, not using any precision. The Axeman and Hatchetman, were designed AROUND the Ax weapon, (which is the only reason I give that their weapon may be able to take the shock of the strikes...) so their targeting systems would have been designed to take that into account and the use of the weapon is possible with any real precision.

The one thing I have enjoyed about BT more then any other, is that it doesn't really do anything that could be considered "fantastic". It instead takes and uses tech and advances it. The only thing that is done that would be in the Fantastic level, is not based on the mechs, but the jumpships. There are no force-fields. There are no unbreakable metals. There are no unbeatable mechs. Instead, there is a level of possibility that suspends disbelief.

[Thomas de Ville]

I would like to see melee combat in MWO even it´s only a last option in the battle.
Gundam ect. from manga and anime are to different to the mechs in BT.. why?
A mech without a pilot is a lump of metall.
A gundam (what ever) can transforming into an AI monster with godlike powers.
So never mix it with BT.

[grimzod]

Would be fun to have assault mechs carrying large throw away autocannon rifles into battle and toss them down or use them as clubs when the magazines run dry. Maxtech had such wonderful toys in it.

Punching and kicking should be in. Just get it done devs, we can't let the Clanners have it their way all the time.

[Strum Wealh]

Papertarget, on 25 June 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

When you go to the novels, you need to understand that it isn't really Cannon. It is an interpretation of the writer. They take liberties to make the story more engaging. So you can have certain effects that are a good read, but not really part of the Cannon of Battletech.

Firstly, it's "canon", not "cannon".
Canon: "A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field", "The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic"
Cannon: "A large mounted weapon that fires heavy projectiles. Cannon include guns, howitzers, and mortars."

Secondly, the novels are, in fact, considered canon.
More specifically:

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Computer games and the material printed only in Germany (with the exception of the Founding of the Clans novels by Randall Bills) are not considered canonical.
We have a rather simple matter of determining canon in-house: Whatever we establish for research material for the authors is canon.

Currently, that list includes:
All sourcebooks and novels produced for BattleTech by FASA and Roc in the United States
All sourcebooks and novels produced for Classic BattleTech by FanPro and Roc in the United States
All sourcebooks and novels (including electronic publications, such as BattleCorps) produced by InMediaRes (and its subsidiaries, BattleCorps and Catalyst Game Labs) in the United States
All material produced by WizKids for the MechWarrior: Dark Age/MechWarrior: Age of Destruction game lines

GENERAL INCLUSIVE NOTE: There are a few select instances where a story or article appearing even in these sources may be considered non-canon, but generally this is because the material was in error (such as date mishaps like original TRO3025's claim that the Zeus emerged from Defiance before the Mackie was even built OR Defiance even existed as such), or it was specifically published as a gag (such as Loren Coleman's infamous "Chapter 6" on BattleCorps)

The list does not include:
Magazines, even "official" ones such as BattleTechnology, 'Mech, and others
The MechWarrior, MechCommander, and MechAssault video and computer games, as well as the various BattleTech games produced for Nintendo and Sega game systems
The BattleTech cartoon series
The BattleTech comic book series

GENERAL NON-INCLUSIVE NOTE: Despite their non-canonical status, we have not gone into total denial about these sources either, but have simply opted to pick and choose what elements there are "canon" and what are not.
For example, the BattleTech cartoon series' events may not be canon, but the characters they contained were, and the series itself has been referenced as an in-universe "propaganda vid" for the children of the FedCom growing up in the wake of the Clan invasion.

To reiterate, all of the novels printed by FASA, FanPro, Roc, InMediaRes, and WizKids in the US (plus the Founding of the Clans novels printed in Germany) are canon.
All other novels (mainly printed only in Germany), magazines, comic books and so on are not canon.
(source here)

[MilitantMonk]

They could always do melee attacks like a quicktime event. It'd take some work for it not to be clunky or 'lock' you into close combat but it'd be the way to go I think.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Papertarget, on 25 June 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

OK. A Sword or an Ax would not add "vastly increased damage", nor would it increase accuracy.

As JC Denton once said: rules are rules.
And those are from the current set of tabletop rules, and the devs are keeping those as guidelines.

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Their punch damage is based upon the Kinetic energy that is imparted through the battle fist and supported through the structure of the arm.

And that "battlefist" is fluff only.

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Also, the Ax and the Sword would have no structure that would absorb the strike. They would more then likely stretch or shatter. So the weapon would be deformed, or lost with the first strike. (If it was built into the arm like the Axeman or Hatchetman, then there might be a different outcome, but that is also not part of this discussion.)

An Atlas built with a hatchet follows the exact same rules as an Axeman built with a hatchet.
There are no axes or swords than one can simply pick up in BT. Anything that lies on the ground that gets picked up counts as a club following all such rules.
And if an axe would deform after the first strike, then why would they have used them in the dark ages?

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The Atlas and the Archer have dedicated targeting systems. It is designed to cover the weapons that are placed into the system.

They are if they mount one. You don't go swap out that AC/5 for a pair of Medium Lasers and forget to change the targeting systems either, do you?

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Secondly, the novels are, in fact, considered canon.

Unfortunately, although we can always try to have Far Country removed from that list.