29 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

To be fair i think it is a horrible idea but in a strange manner i like to see something like that.
The reason however is clear: nobody want to see 12 Atlas that face 12 Atlas - a Atlas while still in production is expensive and rare.

different mech factory's produce mechs in different amounts - didn't found actual numbers but for example 3 iconic Battlemechs produced by two different manufacturer.
Kallon Industries produce in a time period 5 Enforcer, 3 Jagermechs
Archernar BattleMechs produce in the same time periode 3 Enforcer and 5 Dervish BattleMechs
That makes a total of 16 battlemechs available for loyal Davion pilots in this given time period.

The time period could be a "month" in real time or considering the total amount of players (for example for every 1000 players registered a production cycle is finished) When these mechs have found an owner, you are not allowed to buy another one - because there is no available.

seldom Mechs should be more expensive - for example the Archer is very common in the InnerSphere, while there are no known Battleaxe or Hammerhands

How should this shortage have a impact on the game:
I'm bold and think that i must have a Atlas -> actual there is no new production cycle - and other pilots want to have a atlas too - so i find my self on a list ID is 197 - means i get one of the next 197 produced Atlas mechs... That will last a really long time? What can i do to get one?
* get more loyalty/renow points for fighting a battle.
* there is a Merc Group or a other players selling a Atlas on the black market
* wait till until there are enough Atlas produced - but maybe there are others that get a better position on the list

On the other hand there will be maybe some mechs nobody want to pilot - so you get some of this machines for less costs.
Another side impact is that you could be able to predict other players. For example: you see some one that pilot a Hammerhand - that means this guy has to be awesome - to get one, or one of the first player of the game
Of course it means that rare battlemechs are not automatically the best mechs available - but when it comes down to prestige and glory - a mech is a sign of its pilot

[Bluey]

Quite reasonable
We all know even some of the best pilots ended up using medium mechs till their freshly ordered new assault mechs arrive.

[Adridos]

The production limits are nice, but having too much problems getting a mech is not a very good idea.
With some adjustments, it could bring some interesting situations, though.

You should change the production time from month to a week, or even something smaller and adjust it for mechs of different rarity. We don't have enough mech types to limit even one of them to 5 pieces per year. That would make everyone play the same mechs all the time and seeing whole teams composed of 1-2 types of mechs would completely eradicate diversity in the game, making it boring.

[Bluey]

after seing WoT Im afraid of seing 24 player match with all atlases.Ok most people in this forums may be are veterans but when this game launched many new people will come from WoT*cause its dying* and they will try to enforce same playing tactic in here too.

Edited by Bluey, 28 February 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Going by the item replacement times listed in the CBT Master Repair Table (which doesn't list things like calibrating the myomer system, sighting the weapons and calibrating them to the fire control system, and so on), a fairly average BattleMech should take about a week to assemble and put into action once one has the constituent parts.

Given that every one of said the parts would have to be manufactured, (rigorously) inspected, and (rigorously) tested, I would expect an average BattleMech to take about a fortnight (2 weeks) to go from raw-materials-onto-factory to combat-ready.
(And, of course, a factory could build "batches" of several individual 'Mechs in parallel...)

I, personally, would like to see something like this combined with prices:

• complete, stock IS light BattleMech: approximately 1 million to 3 million c-bills
  
• complete, stock IS medium BattleMech: approximately 3 million to 6 million c-bills
  
• complete, stock IS heavy BattleMech: approximately 6 million to 9 million c-bills
  
• complete, stock IS assault BattleMech: approximately 9 million to 12 million c-bills
  
• IS OmniMechs: (if/when available): 2x the above prices
  
• Clan BattleMechs (if/when available; should show up on the market only once in a blue moon): 2x the above prices
  
• Clan OmniMechs (if/when available; should show up on the market only once in a blue moon): 3x the above prices

Moreover, batch sizes could vary by weight class:

• light 'Mechs: 10 to 12 'Mechs per batch (--> maximum batch is one full company)
  
• medium 'Mechs: 8 to 10 'Mechs per batch
  
• heavy 'Mechs: 6 to 8 'Mechs per batch
  
• assault 'Mechs: 4 to 6 'Mechs per batch (--> minimum batch is one full lance)

Thus, lights and mediums are cheaper and more numerous (and, thus, more common), heavies more expensive and somewhat less numerous, and assaults are rather expensive and somewhat rare (and Clan 'Mechs are very expensive and very rare).

Your thoughts?

[TimberJon]

I don't know if in the game we could hold to the same math values. But since there is planetary interaction, attacking/defending, etc.. this all means disruption to a local population or even to an economy within a radius of a few jumps. So yea I can see that something like economy of military hardware being affected by the battles we fight, or say... the frequency of battles in a specific area. Maybe we will have some control over whether to leave an area alone, or else attack it much less often, to help bring that systems resources back up to "green" levels. Where attacking an area too much drives the "loot" down to a lower quantity or quality. Maybe aggressive play in an area would "deplete" certain types of munitions. Say... LRM's are out. or a size of AC ammo is unavailable. That would force your unit to adapt and choose another load-out.

I like the idea of not only balancing my weapons, ammo, heat levels, maneuvers, but also as a Merc Commander, where and WHY I choose to raid or attack something. If the devs can juggle a number of factors like this, it should be a fairly in-depth game for leaders (who might already be used to managing ladder matches, etc... like MechReg.) but at the same time simple enough for your grunt MechWarriors who just want to get in and play without micromanaging anything.

Oh also, on the subject of Mechs being available based on money and production times... you could go even a small step further and apply a + or - to Mech production based on other planets where their components are made. Say like the communication systems or even weaponry. I know most mech factories are literal fortresses and manufacture some weapon systems but maybe not all?

Is there a factory that actually manufactures ALL the components needed for one of the designs they produce? Just asking because I don't recall.

Edited by TimberJon, 28 February 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

It'd be interesting for sure. I'd love to see full supply chains simulated along with parts supply problems so you have to play hurt, or swap in non standard weapons. Have transport between planets take a meaningful amount of time so you think twice about popping back to the core to repair.

However this isn't that game. From everything we've seen it looks like its a repair system pretty much like WoT. Maybe they'll add it on later?

[Kaemon]

Would total limit of mechs be included as well?

A way to fix Over-Assaultilation™ would be to limit the # of Assaults per House/Merc Corp.

Until one is destroyed, you can't get a new one (your only option would be to change factions).

That forces people into mech and possibly roles they don't want to play, but I don't really have a problem with that if it's only for a short time.

Who knows? They might actually learn to love something else.

Edited by Kaemon, 28 February 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[TimberJon]

@ Kaemon, cross training man! I enforced it in my unit.

I like this restriction on CHASSIS idea too. Not just total tonnage. Say you need to have your Merc corp registered with the powers that be right? So your license limits the number of each chassis type you can operate, but not own. That way, you can have backups if you have the C-Bills / salvage whatever, but only FIELD a maximum number of weight classes.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

It comes down to how they will enforce limits in matchmaking again. They may limit combat by weight or BV or some formula of their own. Seing as all games except between Merc corps are PUG the you will see 12 Atlas' - until people learn better.

[Dlardrageth]

Supply and demand should in theory provide for a working model. The only issue would be that it might be hard to keep track on activeplayer numbers and thus adjust the available numbers of a given Mech. That is, if you want to handle it on a global level, and not an individual player one. And the latter sounds a bit like a micromanaging nightmare, tbh. Alos from PGI's point of view you have to consider fluctuating/highly volatile player numbers, so any planning that goes beyond a weekly scope is likely counterproductive. As it might lead to artificial shortages, when due to a PR action going well 1K+ new players join all of sudden, but the "Mech production schedule" cannot be adjusted quickly enough.

Idea sure sounds interesting, but still seeing some major issues with it.

[Aegis Kleais]

I voted no. I think getting this realistic into a economic climate along with watching supply and demand coupled with being forced to WAIT is a step too far. They already confirmed that, depending on what House you're with or what Merc Corp (or as a loner), certain Mechs may be more affordable for you, and that's enough price fluctuation for me without having to actually wait for a Mech chassis to become available for purchase and then just get aggravated that some person bought them up while I was asleep.

So in short, infinite supply, variable prices.

[KaiserSoze]

When you are a house member, you should be limmitted to the amount of mechs from other houses you are able to aquire. Therefore a Davion House warrior should be able to aquire Davion mechs far better than aquiring Kurita Mechs per say. This will create truelly (Davion vrs Kurita) battles. And for Mercs they should be able to aquire most mechs but at higher costs... making mercs able to aquire most mechs but have to pay for them.. just my thoughts...

[Karl Streiger]

As Adrianos and Dlardrageth pointed out the main problem of my idea is the time periode of a production cycle. It is hard to say how many players will play the game within a month? The worst effect would be that a player start the game and there is no mech available.
A idea to fix it:
I was talking about production of new mechs. Mechs exists for 500 years, at least the Archer was produced 100,000 times until the first Succession War started.
There should be a pool of old mechs, most of them allready with a owner (royal family, loyal troops, mercs)

Strum Wealth has taken another interesting idea.Assembly time of a Mech. You have bought a Atlas (only a frame with a empty fusion) - but although all its weapons are bought to, they are now not installed. It is now up to your Tech to make it combat ready - for example you are a pilot of a listed Elite unit and have three techs...your mech is perfect and combat ready within a couple of days, while if you are a poor mercenary company where youself have to make your mech ready the time between shipment and first usage is longer and the result more crude - (for those that think that is unfair...in WoT you can buy a 100% crew or you use the 50% crew - the gap is worse)

How to combine that with prices. Hire Techs for the whole time, or hire techs only for repairs and assembly of mechs? Buy a Mech with a option to get it combat ready (good idea when choosing a field modification kit)

The different production rates should be modified because there are more medium mechs than light units.
The production rate between medium to heavy should be more differnt.
light: 8
medium: 12
heavy: 4
assault: 1

I like the idea of TimberJon but i don't know where you can buy your weapons from. I play Battletech for 20years and i never thought about this fact.
Are there traveling merchants that move from system to system and sell LRMs or ACs? I don't believe so... have you a FedEx or UPS that send your Centurion to your adress?

The fight for planets that have a production center will become a bloody mess because everybody want to hold the planet. There is a reason while there where countless battles for Hesperus II

To fight with your specific house mechs is a reason for a shortage of available mechs - the last thin i want to see is a FRR mechwarrior that pilot a Vindicator. There are mechs that should stay exclusive for a house unit...

[Anvil Dragon]

I agree a semi-functional economy would be interesting but it would be a major drain on developer time and require a fair sized computing farm to keep track of things.

It would be good to have a price variable and availability variable based on the number of jumps from a given manufacturer but even that would take a fair piece of time to implement (supply routes). It would fit in with keeping track of where various units were fighting, but it does add a couple of fields to the database. Mmmm, I wonder if all this data could be kept in a personal key file on your computer. Something you logged in with.

Early on it would be simpler to add the allowed mix of mechs to the contract/orders.

Another option would be one team would post what they had and agree to battle some range of mechs. Sort of sounds like a clans, but one group may want to field all of one type or some range of BV / total-tonnage. Tabletop and battlepod matches basically went with that.

[Sir Aaron]

Umm when i go into the lore the Mechs you usually have around in normal units aren't fresh out of Factory quite the oposit so the factory production would be rather the small part of the active Mechs. Anyway if you read through all the announcement the devs are quite aware of the problem that people seem to believe= Bigger equals better. Too at World of Tanks there was only one way to win a map in the normal game play: Run them down. As far as i can see we will get a lot of equipment that will make it possible to set traps to sneak and to really play tactics.

Anyway reducing the numbers of mechs available will always hit the causal players. I am more in for the old soultion of Mech Commander: reducing the max drop wight.

[Karl Streiger]

Sir Aaron, on 01 March 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Anyway reducing the numbers of mechs available will always hit the causal players. I am more in for the old soultion of Mech Commander: reducing the max drop wight.

In MechCommander and MW4 Merchs bigger WAS better. Only in Vengance was it possible to play nearly through the complete game only with a Uziel. When you had a drop weight of 200t 2 Atlas had perform better as 4 Hunchback.
But when it comes down to mobility... there is a reason why some people think that the Timber Wolf (MAD CPLT) is the best Mech in existence.

Alternate could be the request for contracts: dunno if someone can remember in MW2 Mercs there was a contract where you have to protect a noble piloting a Dragon it was impossible to guard him piloting a Atlas.

Maybe the Drop Costs should be take into consideration too. Cause of the trailer: dropping a Atlas is more expensive as dropping a Grashopper. Not only because of the weight but because of the thrusters that are needed to slow the fall.

[Ray Mason]

This comes down to the level of world persistency and "class balance". It can't be that heavier ~ better, etc. If the game ends up being a MOBA then you don't need to limit anything - the metagame should lead to mixed line-ups. So it’s ok for PUGs to go all heavy against all heavy if the want, but it would fail in pre-mades. If it ends up being a massive, persistent sandbox then you need a global economy to influence the warfare.

[Kaemon]

Aegis Kleais™, on 01 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

It's bad enough my Timber Wolf is valued at about 2.5x the price of an Atlas. You're gonna make me WAIT for it to become available in an economy on top of that? No, thank you.

I'll pay for the quality, but I demand my goods in a timely manner. (ie, NOW).

But how cheesed will you be when EVERYONE is rolling the exact same TW that you are...and they keep calling yours a Mad Cat?

heh heh,..

[FACEman Peck]

I think that if you need more 'Mechs than what the factory can provide, you've got bigger problems than factory production being at an all time low.