18 replies to this topic

[Kairaveth]

I would like to start with a bit about some experiences I have had.

First, I love flight sims and I have loved the BT games ever since I got my first comp in 1997. (my first computer game was MechCommander) I have spent alot of money on my current flight controls (highly modified HOTAS Cougar) that is well over 10 years old now. Over the course of the last several years I have mainly focused on WWII flight sims with some jet and helo sims thrown in as well.

There are alot of people here I see that are calling for this game to be hard core sim, as close to TT rules as possible, and full emersion into the BT universe as possible without any consideration for the gaming comunity.

As a FTP release, MWO is going to live or die by the comunities pocketbook. The larger the comunity, the larger the chance there will be more people willing to spend real money. I bring this up because if you go and check out some flight sims you will find that the player base is not that large. Yes, there are many hard core and many casual players, but on the whole it is very tiniy compared to other FTP games currently online.

There are some good sims out there but you still only find maybe a few hundred people playing them. Whereas there are a bunch of crappy FTP games that have thousands currently playing.

While I would love for this game to be like the sims I so dearly love, with all the imersion and feel of hardcore combat. There needs to be options that will attract members of the FPS go blow crap up crowd.

Currently I am spending my time at hyperlobby playing IL-2 forgotten battles. A WWII sim. There are about 30 or more dedicated servers that run all the time. With different realism options. You will find that the hardcore servers, with full realism are the least populated. There has to be some balancing or once the gamers get bored of the large learning curve of "realism" I say that lightly because this is a fitional universe after all. But once they get bored or find it to difficult they will leave. Leaving only a handful of the hardcore remaining and the game will not survive in that state.

Yes, I would love for this game to be a sim. But I want the game to survive for years and years so I am willing to be happy for a good game rather then a sim to see that happen.

If you don't bend then you will break.
Flame on.

[carl kerensky]

I believe a common misconception is in order for a game to be a success it has to be simple, arcadish and dumbed down. There is absolutely NO reason why a game cant have sim qualities and still be very easy to pick up and play. What makes a good sim to me is not a thousand keyboard buttons to memorize but the translation of realism visually to the screen. Half of the time the player has nothing to do with this but is feeling like he or she is actively involved.
Of course piloting and targeting are essential skills but the rest of the sim like realism is expressed effects. The more outstanding the effects the more one feels like its real. One is drawn into the experience by these attentions to details. Just watching the trailer there is so many fantastic effects going on that you felt immersed by it. Like a good movie. So instead of spending half the time looking for the right button your eyeballs are sucked right into the screen because it looks and plays so dam good. IMO thats a good sim or simulation....BTW I believe Mechwarrior 2 was a great simulation for its time. Stands out as the best one of the bunch.

CK

Edited by carl kerensky, 11 March 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Caballo]

Wuzzums, on 11 March 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

Flame on.

No need to flame anything. Your POV is very logical, but i think there's still a lot of things we don't know about the matching system, so we don't know what kind of games (in terms of realistic or unrealistic) we are going to play. I gotta say i'm the kind of guy who plays racing simulators with only a chronometer. (Shift+F in Live for Speed rules )

That said, i expect servers with respawn on and off, servers with heat management on and off, servers with friendly fire on and off... etc, so we, the hard core players may find what we want (an inmersive experience) and the casual gamers can find what they want (15mt. robots pew-pew).

What i'm still unsure is how the dev team is going to apply this with a semi persistent world. I just can't imagine it.

Edited by Caballo, 11 March 2012 - 06:09 AM.

[metro]

Lets not Flame.

Discuss the topic or we will close.

Thank you.

[Dlardrageth]

Y'all watch Metro going for 1.5K+ posts right here. Any bets when he'll hit the mark?

[Lightfoot]

If you make a game too dumbed-down you get really bad gameplay. There is a balance to be struck between fun and challenge. As simulations go MechWarrior is very easy. Even as a harcore sim it is easy to pilot a 'mech because there is no vertical movement (except for Jump Jets, which are limited).

I know MW players who wouldn't touch a flight-sim, who really only play strategy and rpg games, but they never miss a MechWarrior game and master it easily. I am just pointing out that MechWarrior is one of those rare games that actually draws better action gameplay out of it's simulation attributes. MechWarrior is not a shallow point and click shooter, but it is nevertheless an easy game to play.

The bottomline is that people play MechWarrior because they want to enter the sci-fi world of piloting a giant robotic walking tank and master it. Simulating that world for players and making it a fun battle of fast aiming and good tactics is a challenge, but that's why MechWarrior 2 was top selling game of 1995. It allowed players to enter that world.

[zirkonflex]

To me, there are two things decicive for the "simness" of the game, the armor to weapon damage ratio and the knocking effects on the reticule. Imagining those two things changed in both ways alters the gameplay a lot, and creates a different experience.
I've always been a rabit fan of the "much damage, low armour" and "dynamic reticule" gameplay, but it has never been realised in a Mechwarrior title as of yet.
The thing is, with the reticule moving more, thus shots missing more often, the gameplay could still be dragged out a fair amount.
Well placed shots, ambushes and general skill would be much more important, whereas in a game of endlessly shooting at eachother, the "better" mech wins by default.
The same thing goes for mech classes, with single hits being more important, smaller, more agile mechs have more of a chance as the big cuys draw fire to them, making it hard to hit for them.
In MWLL (reticule movement is not possible there because of engine limitations, so no hit at the great WS team), you'll see mechs under fire by 3-5 enemys still able to snipe some lethal shots, which is not right in my opinion.
Somehow developers think that this will scare away potential players, but I really don't think so.
Especially with the free to play system the approach should be to get a fair amount of money out of really serious players, who would obsously dig the sim gameplay more.

/ I have to say though, in this regard, MWOnline is going into the right direction.
Gameplay can obviously not be judged as of a pre-alpha build, but the seperate reticules for torso and arms aswell as the relatively high damage to armor ratio give me high hopes .
// If I where the devs I'd split it into a casual and a hardcore mode (BF3-style), the changes I mentioned are very easy to change and it wouldn't be such a problem.

Edited by zirkonflex, 11 March 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[SnowDragon]

Mechwarrior has always been about the simulation. Lets face it, we're here because we love those games, because we love the only true mech sim out there (Short of Steel Battalion). We're here because we're true to the canon. For some, we've been here since the Battletech and the mech models (Which was awesome, by the way). On a personal note, I want this game to be like MechWarrior 2. Sim'ed to the max.

But I have a feeling we'll get something akin to MW 4 with elements of MW2 thrown in for us hardcore players. I mean, Even in it's dumbed down state, Mechwarrior 4 was still pretty true to it's roots. While I'd LOVE to see the old system of critical slots and what have you, it's just too complex for your IQ 15 twelve year old halo player who can't grasp anything more than shoot, reload, scream hax the second he gets killed, and only heard about battletech when he saw the trailer with the pretty explosions on it. It saddens me to say that they matter in a game like mechwarrior, but that's the state. You gotta play with the hand you dealt.

But maybe thedevs will throw us simmers a line here, and give us 'arcade' type servers (MEch deathmatch, or something akin) and give the rest of us the more hardcore type gameplay. But I'd expect the hardcore type simulation in regards to mechs in any story missions, that's just the only way to do things.

My $0.02, at any rate.

[Shai tan]

I love a good SIM. Anyone here ever play Janes Longbow 2 back in the day? I always used almost full sim controls on it. But for a Mech game, that`d be way too overboard for me.

What I always dreamed of for a Mech game is full SIM immersion as far as looks, movement, and sound are concerned. I just need the game to have the right attributes to suck me into FEELING like I am there. Not to mention the motions you go thru in piloting. So if the game fully SIMs these things, I am in Mech heaven.

Lastly, the Mech game should be simple to jump into, and fairly hard to master. Piloting/gunnery should take an acquired skill. As in, if you rocked hard and put in your time for a good 3 to 4 months after release.... and little Johnny just boots up the game, in no way shape or form should little Johnny be able to hand your azz to you.

Since the game is FTP, then we should have to worry bout the Devs looking to release a game where everyone is each others instant equal.

Edited by shai`tan, 11 March 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[Mechteric]

From the looks of the gameplay video, I see an agreeable mix of sim style gameplay yet with accessibility for newcomers. Win-win I'd say.

[SnowDragon]

shai`tan, on 11 March 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

I love a good SIM. Anyone here ever play Janes Longbow 2 back in the day? I always used almost full sim controls on it. But for a Mech game, that`d be way too overboard for me.

What I always dreamed of for a Mech game is full SIM immersion as far as looks, movement, and sound are concerned. I just need the game to have the right attributes to suck me into FEELING like I am there. Not to mention the motions you go thru in piloting. So if the game fully SIMs these things, I am in Mech heaven.

Lastly, the Mech game should be simple to jump into, and fairly hard to master. Piloting/gunnery should take an acquired skill. As in, if you rocked hard and put in your time for a good 3 to 4 months after release.... and little Johnny just boots up the game, in no way shape or form should little Johnny be able to hand your azz to you.

Since the game is FTP, then we should have to worry bout the Devs looking to release a game where everyone is each others instant equal.

I LOVED longbow 2! That game was kick ***. I still fire it up these days (***** to run)

Yeah, I can agree with it being easy on the newbies. I mean, us hardcore players need some cannon fodder to shoot at, right? Hah!

A lot of the key options have already been confirmed or heavily hinted at. We've got heat, we've got throttle, we've got weapon groups, limb damage, pretty much all of the weapons and a mechlab confirmed. All the aspects are there for an awesome game. It's just a matter now, of waiting to see if it's a simmed up sim (MW3) or a sim-like game (MW4).

I can't wait, either way personnally. But I agree, I don't want any newbie being on equal footing with me five minutes after he boots up the game. There's a reason I earned all this hardcore gear and bought an Atlas or Daishi. It was to stomp on the smaller mechs.

Edited by SnowDragon, 11 March 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[infinite xaer0]

well, MW has never been a hardcore sim; it's always been an action-sim-type game. I mean, you don't really need to know that much to get playing and to have fun, you just have to be willing to learn the little details along the way and to practice.. and even that just kinda comes naturally so long as you continue playing.

[SnowDragon]

infinite xÆr0, on 11 March 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

well, MW has never been a hardcore sim; it's always been an action-sim-type game. I mean, you don't really need to know that much to get playing and to have fun, you just have to be willing to learn the little details along the way and to practice.. and even that just kinda comes naturally so long as you continue playing.

I'd have to disagree with you there. It only really took a turn down Game Lane come MW3, and never reached far until MW4. Even MW3 was pretty up into the simulation of how these huge hundred tonne war machines funcitioned. Sure, you could just jump in and play, but you truely had no idea how to work it. That's what I'd like to see. You'd be able to see who had spent their childhood (or adulthood) loving on a timeless classic, and who was green as grass who'd never seen the cockpit of a mech before. There's a lot of aspect out there for roleplaying in this universe, and get the right people and you'll be laughing.

I can't wait for the day when a unch of peeps get on VOIP, each with RP rank and conduct a combat in character. That'd be sweet.

[Refizul]

It is not really that difficult to learn the basics of a Mechwarrior game. At its VERY basics you could even argue that it's very much like controlling a tank in modern FPS. Naturally than comes Heatmanagement, Weapon Groups, Crits, etc.
I never thought Mechwarrior games were difficult to get into. When I first played Mechwarrior2 I didn't even know the english language and playing worked just fine. Figuring out the objectives on the other hand was more of a challenge. As long as the often cited rule of "easy to learn, hard to master" is in effect there is nothing to fear.

But I think a Tutorial for new players would definitly be something that should be offered.

[Pht]

Wuzzums, on 11 March 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

As a FTP release, MWO is going to live or die by the comunities pocketbook. The larger the comunity, the larger the chance there will be more people willing to spend real money. I bring this up because if you go and check out some flight sims you will find that the player base is not that large.

The comparison isn't really valid... the MS flight sims have a small following because they are simulations of flying airplanes... which is a complex process and if you don't put your time in, unrewarding. Of course a good flight sim will have a large amount of stuff to digest before it can be a fun game.

A simulation of what it's like to pilot a BattleMech in the BTUniverse, however is nearly the opposite. 'Mechs are designed and built from the ground up to be as simple as is absolutely possible to pilot; they have to be, or they couldn't be piloted by a single person.

At the most basic level piloting a battlemech is simple. The upside? You get more gameplay reward for time put in, but not in such a manner that newcomers stand virtually no chance of ever beating you.

---

Speaking of sims, there's a gross misconception that in order to be a simulator type game, a game must have a ludicrous amount of details that must be tracked and mastered in order to successfully play it... which is just flat wrong.

All a simulator is is a game that imitates something. That's *it,* and if more people would realize this, this fear would die the death it deserves.

Quote

There has to be some balancing or once the gamers get bored of the large learning curve of "realism"...

Misguided attempts at trying to equate BT with current tech aside; realism in a BT sim is making the game as much as it would be like to pilot a battlemech in the BTUniverse as is possible; which again, is not a hard thing to get into at the basement level.

Quote

But I want the game to survive for years and years so I am willing to be happy for a good game rather then a sim to see that happen. If you don't bend then you will break. Flame on.

Now this is somewhat ironic ... you almost can't find a longer lived and more hardcore group than the MS flight sim followers... which is one of the oldest running series of games out there.

[TheRulesLawyer]

The danger of a sim, is it includes all the quirks and idiosyncrasies of what its trying to simulate with complete disregard for it being "fun" For example, I tried rise of flight, a WWI flight sim recently. I spent 10 minutes on the ground trying to start my engine before going online and figuring out that I had to set the proper fuel mix and throttle for it to start. Another friend spend awhile before he figured you have to manually load the guns before you can fire. These are things that while "realistic" aren't really fun to most people.

You can do the same thing with mechs. You could include a lengthy start-up procedure that only a hardcore lore-head would know, or you can make it a single button, or even automatic. One is sim, while the other is more game. I can garauntee you that there are quite a few players who will never give it a chance if "sim" gets to the level that they can't even start their mech without a reference manual.

[Helmer]

TheRulesLawyer, on 12 March 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

The danger of a sim, is it includes all the quirks and idiosyncrasies of what its trying to simulate with complete disregard for it being "fun" For example, I tried rise of flight, a WWI flight sim recently. I spent 10 minutes on the ground trying to start my engine before going online and figuring out that I had to set the proper fuel mix and throttle for it to start.

Rise of Flight ?

Such a great game .

[Shai tan]

Well, I can see there is still after all these years a percieved deviding line stigmata when you just bring up the term SIM. Most peeps read it, and think OMG full balls out sim down to the nuts and bolts. Run for your lives!!!!! lol There IS alot of middle ground, with loads of variation. It is not either black or white. Mechwarrior 3 is a perfect example, that game did more than any other PC Mech game I have played to put the player IN the cockpit and make them FEEL like they were really there.

The Mechs, incockpit views, sounds, visuals, force feedback effects, and movement were an almost perfect textbook execution of how to do it right.... and SIM just the right attributes.... while remaining easy access to all. And we all know it was nowhere near the SIM that Janes Longbow 2 for example was/is.

[Exilyth]

http://mwomercs.com/...-warfare-part-i
Read the part about controls. That's the easiest to learn control scheme any MW game has had so far.

Of course there has to be a balance between simulation aspects and arcade aspects.
It's just that Mechwarrior, unlike 'my little shooter', is known for leaning more towards simulation.