22 replies to this topic

[Ice Dragon]

People keep arguing this way or that if light mechs will be viable even with the new role/information concepts that encourage their use. But I don't think many people will stick with it if they cannot keep up with their fellow warriors who are racking up kills thanks to them and quickly out levelling them.

I think if a bonus were applied to lower drop weights then it would encourage people to use lighter mechs instead of going 100t every time. Experience boost or higher salvage percentage or CBill multipliers for smaller drop weights. If experience works by giving points based on kills and actions a la BF3, then a multiplier per kill applied so that if you are in a Jenner and can take down something bigger, you get a much larger bonus. Points for Action/(Drop Weight/100). Assuming 1 point per 1t killed: Ex:

Atlas kills an Atlas = 100 points.
Commando kills and Atlas = 400 points
Atlas kills Commando = 25 points
Commando kills Commando = 100 points

So equal mech fights of any size always give around an equal amount of points (in this example 100).

Possibly this could work with other total drop weight ideas people were discussing, where facing heavier opponent forces in 12v12 would give more points. For important fights for worlds or territory maybe people would forgo the personal XP in sacrifice of heavier mechs and a better chance at victory (with its own perks).

I believe the devs mentioned that XP will not be based so much around kills but damage; how much you can contribute. I think if driving around an Atlas will result in small amounts of Cbills/Experience/Salvage (maybe not enough to always cover repairs), it will naturally balance out peoples tendency to want to always bring assaults.
If you think you can win with a centurion why bring a dragon?

This will also give larger bonuses to scouts who choose smaller mechs but cant do much damage as opposed to heavier scouts with greater survivability. Spotting enemies with a higher multiplier will make up for not getting kills and would really make the role warfare concept work.

There are still things like how assists will be handled and how to handle spotting potentially becoming a point farm with locking/unlocking. But any thoughts?

[TheRulesLawyer]

I hope something like this goes in. Damage based, not kill based as anyone can get the lucky last shot (Though there should be a minimum award for a kill if you get a crit or something) So as an assault on the battlefield, you have to do more damage to level, *and* you're an XP punching bag.

[Ice Dragon]

I'm thinking that the XP system will be along the lines of BF3 or COD with points popping up per action, maybe bonus at the end of a match, but there needs to be scaling for risk so people take them

[Victor Morson]

I just wrote a reply in this thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...607#entry159607

However, two things you have wrong:
* Noone thinks light 'mechs will be useless. Scouts will be very useful and any team will have a couple. The problem is more in regards to anything under 65 or so tons that is NOT a scout; these are the 'mechs that will quickly be hurt by a lack of a limiting system. Why take a Hunchback over an Atlas?

* If you make the only difference XP or CBills, all that will happen is good players will farm unorganized teams for points in lighter stuff and every major serious battle in the game will be fought with 10/11 assaults/heavies and 1/2 scouts.

Edited by Victor Morson, 14 March 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[FinnMcKool]

oh I hope it isnt about who gets the most kills, I think it should be more like the team , each gets the points.

it encourages team work / play when all the winning team gets the same xp , or it will soon devolve into Mechatlas
wars

Edited by FinnMcKool, 14 March 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[Fachxphyre]

it would be nice to have a system in place to encourage use of light mechs IF they are found to be dramatically underplayed once the game actually launches. naturally, the same goes for any other weight division found to be largely absent from the majority of battles. despite role warfare supposedly making each size and function valuable on the battlefield, it remains to be seen how well the system balances the meta to encourage diversity on the battlefields.

[Dlardrageth]

Victor Morson, on 14 March 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

[...]
* Noone thinks light 'mechs will be useless. Scouts will be very useful and any team will have a couple.
[...]

Sure, if you can find enough players that will be content to serve as a glorified binocular eventually. Otherwise the players in the assault Mechs might ahve to draw straws who gets that "exciting" job. From what I'm reading recently about how some people (predominantly MW4 et al. schooled) envision the gameplay for light Mechs on the battlefield, I doubt you could pay me enough to do that menial and boring job. I still have hopes for more objective-focused gameplay though, where damage/kills perhaps make up as little as only 10% of the total XP payout. So that ultimately XP get rewarded for tactical savvy and smart piloting, instead for having higher tonnage and more weaponry mounted.

Quote

The problem is more in regards to anything under 65 or so tons that is NOT a scout; these are the 'mechs that will quickly be hurt by a lack of a limiting system. Why take a Hunchback over an Atlas?

An easy solution to that would have been a very fine-tuned speed-scaling. If the actual in-game speed differences were vastly above the level as depicted in the gameplay trailer. What I saw there pretty much buries any hope of meaningful speed scaling. Which could have given medium and also faster heavy Mechs more of a distinct role/profile. Well, I guess if the trend will show itself too obviously for the masses moving towards the assault Mechs (once again), PGI will probably have to ponder some sort of massive nerf to the whole assault class. Because the balancing via drop weight or even BV will ultimately fail as well, if you won't have enough players willing to play in an underpowered and uncompetitive Mech. That way you will have to wait for ages to fill up the roster, or simply end up having assault vs. assault battles that were so dearly beloved in MW4 and the reason quite a few people didn't bother with multiplayer BT after that any more. Or you could just draw straws to determine who loses and has to pilot the LOL-medium to fill up the roster. *shrug*

Quote

* If you make the only difference XP or CBills, all that will happen is good players will farm unorganized teams for points in lighter stuff and every major serious battle in the game will be fought with 10/11 assaults/heavies and 1/2 scouts.

That could happen very easily anway, if PGI doesn't keep a very close eye on balancing and a very heavy nerfbat handy. Though I would still pity the guys having to pilot the scout Mechs.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 14 March 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[Siilk]

True, the rewards should be mostly about fulfilling your role. Scouts should have points for providing targeting info for their lance, commanders should get pints for coordinating the battle etc. But enery mech is a war machine, each of them would, at some point, engage the enemy. Besides, as was mentioned by Victor Morson, light mech not equals scout(vice versa is also true). So, if the lighter mech would manage to kill a heavier mech, pilot's reward should be significantly bigger than for killing a fellow light. For a heavier mech, on the other hand, killing a light should yield a modest reward at best.

[Victor Morson]

Finding scout 'mech pilots isn't hard. It's a lot of fun, actually, to be a scout 'mech and it's a role you often find people on MWLL servers doing (since a lot of the recon information is automated like MWO) and it was one of the craziest jobs you could have in MW4. It's not the boring job you seem to think it is Diardrageth!

That said the problem is that while scouts are viable, and assaults are viable, the units inbetween (combat-focused mediums most notably) will not be viable unless there's a BV system in, just by virtue of doing nothing that a 'mech a weight class or two higher can't do better, or a weight class lower can't do better either. Lights are the better scouts, and high end heavies or assaults are the better damage dealers - without a drop limiting factor, there's no need for anything else.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree with Victor - I can't see any "role" system getting people out of the heaviest mech they can afford to run. Which means that mediums will be as rare as Dodo's. Lets face it team deathmatch doesn't encourage anything else. TBH I don't think that having so few options is MVP unless it changes pretty rapidly.

[SnowDragon]

I dunno. Why pilot an Atlas at all if you're gonna get punished. The most you'll ever be able to kill is another 100 tonner and anything else nets you lower points, it just won't be worth the ammo at all. No one will pilot anything big since they becomer a liability to the team. Anyone who damages them will get massive bonuses, and Assaults can't fight back for their team against them since the points they win are useless compared to the enemy lighter classes.

[Dihm]

By "kills" you mean, "doing 100% of the damage to knock the enemy mech out of action?"

I much prefer it to be based on damage done, and find the use of "kills" in the OP confusing when later on you mention that PGI has stated it will be damage, not kill, based.

[MaddMaxx]

If they do a Large gets less for a Light, or a Light gets a lot for a Large system, in Bonus generated terms, then you will invariably have those who let the Mediums/Heavies and Assaults chew on each other and then the Lights will dart in for the Kill Steal and all the Bonuses, for little to no work or danger faced. Remember this game will be played on the InterWeeb after all.

Damage based XP/C-Bill has potential but the same issues arises. The Light Mechs can't dish it out versus the big guns so a disparity arises and those who want XP/C-Bills and levels more than gameplay will go BIG. Remember this game will be played on the InterWeeb after all.

Team based XP/C-Bill division will be paramount. Added Bonuses for the Scouts and Command players (nothing crazy) might encourage more of those being seen. Perhaps cheaper Modules for those Mechs that serve a Role more consistently. There has been news of a Built in Player stat/usage/etc etc tracking software, have it track Pilots to Mech Dropped and use that to offer the Module discounts.

I guess what, in the end, will need be kept in mind at all time is... Remember this game will be played on the InterWeeb after all.

[Dihm]

Isn't that exactly how the Lights are SUPPOSED to work?

[TheRulesLawyer]

MaddMaxx, on 15 March 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

If they do a Large gets less for a Light, or a Light gets a lot for a Large system, in Bonus generated terms, then you will invariably have those who let the Mediums/Heavies and Assaults chew on each other and then the Lights will dart in for the Kill Steal and all the Bonuses, for little to no work or danger faced. Remember this game will be played on the InterWeeb after all.

Damage based XP/C-Bill has potential but the same issues arises. The Light Mechs can't dish it out versus the big guns so a disparity arises and those who want XP/C-Bills and levels more than gameplay will go BIG. Remember this game will be played on the InterWeeb after all.

That's why you would need to do it based on damage done not kills and keep the multiplier. Show up at the end of the fight to kill steal? Great. you get a really small part of the pie.

I think the real risk of that system would be people playing the break points, if any. They would take the most gun heavy design possible and say screw surviving, I'm going assault hunting. That's were you start having to balance objective and team win rewards to damage and kill rewards to make sure people can get good scores either way.

Dlardrageth, on 14 March 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Sure, if you can find enough players that will be content to serve as a glorified binocular eventually. Otherwise the players in the assault Mechs might ahve to draw straws who gets that "exciting" job. From what I'm reading recently about how some people (predominantly MW4 et al. schooled) envision the gameplay for light Mechs on the battlefield, I doubt you could pay me enough to do that menial and boring job. I still have hopes for more objective-focused gameplay though, where damage/kills perhaps make up as little as only 10% of the total XP payout. So that ultimately XP get rewarded for tactical savvy and smart piloting, instead for having higher tonnage and more weaponry mounted.

Yah. If they don't have objectives this game will get stale and assault heavy very quickly. Objectives you need to go capture rewards speed, not just firepower.

[MaddMaxx]

Dihm, on 15 March 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Isn't that exactly how the Lights are SUPPOSED to work?

What? Steal the Kill after the Heavies did all the heavy lifting (pun intended), took all the damage, that needs to be repaired @ their cost? The little guy can have the Kill, just fork over your easily won C-Bill bonus so that the Heavy/Assault player can pay his hard fought Repair Bill.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 15 March 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 March 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

That's why you would need to do it based on damage done not kills and keep the multiplier. Show up at the end of the fight to kill steal? Great. you get a really small part of the pie.

I think the real risk of that system would be people playing the break points, if any. They would take the most gun heavy design possible and say screw surviving, I'm going assault hunting. That's were you start having to balance objective and team win rewards to damage and kill rewards to make sure people can get good scores either way.

Yah. If they don't have objectives this game will get stale and assault heavy very quickly. Objectives you need to go capture rewards speed, not just firepower.

Agreed. people playing the break points can be bad in both directions. Heavy and Light

Sure, multipliers would be acceptable for those wielding smaller rides. All that is required is said multipliers be tested to not tip the balance one way or the other.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Well they found them for the heavies in the first place, and no doubt they'll be sniping away at turned backs

[Dihm]

MaddMaxx, on 15 March 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

What? Steal the Kill after the Heavies did all the heavy lifting (pun intended), took all the damage, that needs to be repaired @ their cost? The little guy can have the Kill, just fork over your easily won C-Bill bonus so that the Heavy/Assault player can pay his hard fought Repair Bill.

Lights aren't supposed to go toe to toe with heavies, that isn't their purpose, not their role.

[Dlardrageth]

Not sure if that came up in the last big thread about a reward system for MWO (there was one, I'm positive), but if it weren't too easily exploitable as well (in particular with PUGs), one could even think about waiving all individual rewards and just have a "team one" which gets shared. Obvious problem with that being that it would spark an AfKer and Botter inflation of huge proportions.

But yes, a general reward system based only on basic kill/damage bookkeeping would only really benefit assault and heavily armed heavy Mechs. And gimp everything else rewards-wise. Maybe, if it were not too complicated to implement, a class-specific "XP pool" could be arranged for each battle. That could for example look like this:

• Battle A takes place on Planet B, standard size 12 vs. 12. Each team brings 6 assault, 3 heavy, 1 medium and two light Mechs to the "party".

  
  

• Total of XP to be earned is max. 8000 (picking this just as an arbitrary number). Half of those for damage/spotting/whatever, the other half split up between weight class pools.

  
  

• At the end of the match Team C won and astnishingly didn't lose a single Mech and fulfilled all objectives. Each MEch gets as first part the damage/detection/whatever part allocated. After that the class-specific XP would be distributed.

  
  

• 1000 XP for the 6 assault Mechs would yield 166 XP for each. 1000XP from the heavy Mech pool divided among 3 gives 333 XP for each heavy. Accordingly the lights get 500 XP each and the sole medium a whole 1000 XP.

That way the team effort would be rewarded, the reward structure in general would be more independent of how much damage your Mech can dish out, and,if you run with this model for not only XP, but also LP and eventually C-bills earned, it would be a huge step towards more balanced teams. Because the 11 assault/1 light scout team would make sure their rewards would be as unattractive as their team composition. And if for no other reason, the sheer temptation to grab bigger rewards would ensure a more dynamic team structure, even in competitive play.