96 replies to this topic

[Titus Pullo XIII]

Depending on objectives and/or map layout, I would love to see Assault Mechs acting as a base of fire while the medium and heavy mechs engage; acting on intel from the the lights.

[SnowDragon]

The Uziel could mount twin PPCs.

It was 55 Tonnes.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Really though, there's nothing a meduim CAN'T do. Assaults and heavies can't scout and lights can't attack decently. The meduim can do all that, at the same time. It can probably even last the same amount of time in a firefight as a heavy simply because it can actually move.

[Jack Gammel]

Solis Obscuri, on 12 March 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Heavies are about as fast as most Mediums (excepting a few speed demon designs), while sporting better armor and weapons loadouts. So what's the incentive to field a medium instead of a heavy?

Most heavy mechs are not as fast as mediums. The issue is that the Dragon is very fast for a heavy mech, and the two mediums that have been released so far, the Centurion CN9-A and the Hunchback HBK-4G are on the low end for medium mechs in terms of speed. Medium mechs like the Assassin ASN-21, Chameleon CLN-7V, Crab CRB-27, Clint CLNT-2-3T, Lynx LNX-9Q, Phoenix Hawk PXH-1, and the Sentinel STN-3L are all medium designs available in 3049 to IS factions and all top out at speeds between ~87 and ~119 mph. Most heavy mech designs available to the IS in 3049 top out around ~65 mph with a few notable exceptions like the Dragon and Quickdraw being very fast. At ~65 mph most heavy mech designs circa 3049 are on par in terms of speed with many medium designs also available in 3049, but I want to make 3 points concerning this:

1. In any mission that has weight restrictions for participating lances mediums will be very useful. If the final game mechanics allow for one team to take more players to a battleground by taking lighter mechs, then a real advantage could be gained by the team that chooses to take more medium mechs over a team that chooses to take fewer heavy mechs. Granted, this is all contingent on there being such a mechanic in the final product, but I imagine that something will be in place to put a leash on teams that only want to take heavy and assault mechs.

2. Assuming that damage is cumulative, medium mechs will just be cheaper to repair and upgrade. A single player may find that it is much easier for him/her to maintain a "stable" of 2 or 3 medium mechs than it is to maintain 1 or 2 heavy mechs. There's nothing wrong with this, and as long as mediums are effective on the battlefield this may allow people to more easily earn credits and save up for that special assault mech (or whatever) that they've wanted forever.

3. The game might be starting in 3049, but it won't remain in 3049. The Clans are coming, and lostech is already being integrated into old designs and being used to develop entirely new mechs. Over the course of the first few years of the Clan invasion there is a massive explosion in technological development throughout the IS as military R&D projects are rushed to completion in order to combat the Clan threat. IS pilots should find that they have a growing access to new and very dangerous medium mech designs (ex. Nightsky...assuming that the devs are able to integrate close combat).

4. The mechs I listed above do not even include Clan designs, which IS pilots will be facing as soon as the Invasion begins, and once IS pilots can start fighting Clan Warriors they can start thinking about scavenging Clan tech too (assuming that the devs work some sort of system like this into the game). Regardless, Clan omnimech designs are all extremely dangerous. It will be interesting to see how Clan tech is eventually brought into the game, but it would be reasonable to believe that Clan mechs will at least be very good.

Edited by Jack Gammel, 12 March 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Those who spit on Medium mechs clearly never faced the terrifying TT monster. The Stormcrow.
The Stormcrow B is one of the few things that you want to keep at arm's length.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 12 March 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Lance2500]

Well a medium mech can do a variety of things. Depending on the mech it could be fire support, for example a Uziel could support a heavier mech from a distance with its PPC's. Or they could be used as recon or scouts which a Bushwacker is a notable example of.

Edited by Lance2500, 12 March 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[AkwardArcher]

I dont know the actual implements of mechs in terms of Technical Readouts, but the if the Wraith is introduced, lookout ...

That thing is nasty ... only problem is that it only appears in TR:3055, and was primarily used to hunt Clan mechs ...

[Ronin13]

i see as heavy recon but better at doing hit and run tactics or has harasser on the big slow assault mechs.

[SnowDragon]

A meduim mech can run behind any big assault mech, pump a PPC into it's rear and run off before the Assault can turn to engage it. That's where the glory comes from.

[Arthurial]

I have always viewed Medium mechs as others have said as a jack of all trades type but with lots of options. You can make them types for recon in force by mounting extra equipment with a little less weapons. Or as decent mid weight fighters by removing equipment and using more armor and weapons. They should be the mainstay of any defending or attacking force in a Mechwarrior game.

Being a history major from college I will use a historical example to further explain. Look at the use of cruisers in naval history as they were still not as fast as a frigate but did not have as much heavy fire power as the battleship. They were a cost effective stop gap that you could pour the most money into and be able to to get the most bang for your buck. They could be tailored to recon or as stated before firepower, whichever was needed. In our modern times the cruiser is the most dominant and powerful type of warship in existence today. Yes, just like assaults or heavy the aircraft carrier does get all the press because of what they can do and since they have effectively made the battleship obsolete in modern warfare(unless of course some military planners have their way and we see the rise of modernized versions of battleships/ battlecruisers), however most front line cruisers are packed with systems and countermeasures to neutralize the advantages of carriers.

So sorry to go off on a long drawl but I think if possible we should see forces with some assault, a bit more in heavies and lights, but mostly made up of mediums. That being said I want my Centurion now please... TAKE MY MONEY!!!!

[Lorcan Lladd]

Bottom line, what the Medium weight class 'Mechs have to offer that no Heavy does is manueverability.

Sure, I know there's Heavies like the Dragon that can boast a top speed rating higher than that of some Mediums, as it has been brought to attention in this discussion, but that's assuming you can even handle full throttle.

As the heavier weight classes can't handle acceleration or decceleration quite as well, there's no way you're making full use of all that speed unless you're crossing open, plain terrain, and currently disengaged from enemy forces - even then, if you had to stop at demand, or even take a sharp turn, you'd be delayed for much longer than you would be if you were piloting a Medium.

The Medium 'Mech is stop-and-go; it reacts to your every input at realtime, and is generally more useful in a rapidly changing battle line.

[Graefin Zeppelin]

Gimme a Griffin and ill show you *nods*

[Jacob Carlyle]

Black Sunder, on 12 March 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

My Panther wants to have a PPC with you.

I did say with some exceptions, but the Panther's JJs allow it to move faster than other Mechs of the same speed whenever there is terrain in the way, it's also more manuverable.
Honestly though, the Panther seems designed for a defensive role, if you assign a 35T mech to guard the Leader while he's coordinating fire support, then you have more tonnage to spend elsewhere. And a PPC and JJs make for a nice distraction as the guy piloting the Cyclops closes down the fire support menu, looks up and gets moving again.

[Spiralcrisis]

Personally one role I see is what I call Support Striker. Enough speed to assist with enough firepower to actually be of assistance.

[Vtack]

There is something to be said for the jack of all trades master of none, and medium mechs cover a really interesting breadth of tonnage. 40 tons up to 55 tons. A 50-55 ton mech can pack on some heavy hitting weapons and still be decently agile. There's nothing that stops those mechs from being legit brawlers. Look at the hunchback.

In the 40-45 ton range you can get a mech moving almost as fast as the light mechs but still have enough weaponry to be ideal scouts or effectvie counters to scout mechs.

Any of them can be used for indirect fire support to the heavies and assault mechs that are going to be wading into battle against each other. stand back on a hill and put some missles or PPC fire down on the crowd. If someone gets interested in you you're still in a fast manueverable mech and can simply run away.

I easily see myself having a couple of medium mechs (one for each of these builds as it turns out) and perhaps a highly prized but rarely used heavy for out and out fighting

Edited by Vtack, 14 March 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I really hope that we have a good selection of mediums at launch, after all they were the most common type. In this Era it includes so many mechs that I liked but never had a chance to play except on TT.

[Solis Obscuri]

Jack Gammel, on 12 March 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Most heavy mechs are not as fast as mediums. The issue is that the Dragon is very fast for a heavy mech, and the two mediums that have been released so far, the Centurion CN9-A and the Hunchback HBK-4G are on the low end for medium mechs in terms of speed. Medium mechs like the Assassin ASN-21, Chameleon CLN-7V, Crab CRB-27, Clint CLNT-2-3T, Lynx LNX-9Q, Phoenix Hawk PXH-1, and the Sentinel STN-3L are all medium designs available in 3049 to IS factions and all top out at speeds between ~87 and ~119 mph. Most heavy mech designs available to the IS in 3049 top out around ~65 mph with a few notable exceptions like the Dragon and Quickdraw being very fast. At ~65 mph most heavy mech designs circa 3049 are on par in terms of speed with many medium designs also available in 3049, but I want to make 3 points concerning this:

1. In any mission that has weight restrictions for participating lances mediums will be very useful. If the final game mechanics allow for one team to take more players to a battleground by taking lighter mechs, then a real advantage could be gained by the team that chooses to take more medium mechs over a team that chooses to take fewer heavy mechs. Granted, this is all contingent on there being such a mechanic in the final product, but I imagine that something will be in place to put a leash on teams that only want to take heavy and assault mechs.

A fair point, though the Lynx would be all but gone by 3049, and the Whitworth, Wyvern, Vindicator, Blackjack, Hatchetman, Enforcer, and Hoplite are fairly slow; still, other 'mechs like the Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Scorpion, Griffin, Dervish, Trebuchet, Hermes II, Kintaro, and Vulcan bring that average up. Only the Champion, Dragon, Quickdraw, Ostrol, Ostroc, the nearly extinct Exterminator, and the horrible Charger can reach those speeds, and most don't offer a major upgrade in firepower or armor.

But the 'mechs we've seen released so far, the Centurion and Hunchback, while serious ***-kickers in their own weight class, aren't going to hold up well against the Thugs, Victors, Battlemasters, Black Knights, Thunderbolts, Warhammers, Guillotines etc. that can match them in speed. And much as I love both the Centurion and Hunchie, I find it hard to think they'll be a very desireable choice if someone can pick up an Orion instead, unless there's some kind of drop weight limitation in place.

Jack Gammel, on 12 March 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

2. Assuming that damage is cumulative, medium mechs will just be cheaper to repair and upgrade. A single player may find that it is much easier for him/her to maintain a "stable" of 2 or 3 medium mechs than it is to maintain 1 or 2 heavy mechs. There's nothing wrong with this, and as long as mediums are effective on the battlefield this may allow people to more easily earn credits and save up for that special assault mech (or whatever) that they've wanted forever.

As for ease of repair, not sure - fully repairing a medium is cheaper than a heavy, but if the heavy just needs new armor and repaired system or two, it has to cheaper to fix than a medium that suffered massive systems and weapon loss, plus engine damage, enduring the same amount of damage.

Jack Gammel, on 12 March 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

3. The game might be starting in 3049, but it won't remain in 3049. The Clans are coming, and lostech is already being integrated into old designs and being used to develop entirely new mechs. Over the course of the first few years of the Clan invasion there is a massive explosion in technological development throughout the IS as military R&D projects are rushed to completion in order to combat the Clan threat. IS pilots should find that they have a growing access to new and very dangerous medium mech designs (ex. Nightsky...assuming that the devs are able to integrate close combat).

4. The mechs I listed above do not even include Clan designs, which IS pilots will be facing as soon as the Invasion begins, and once IS pilots can start fighting Clan Warriors they can start thinking about scavenging Clan tech too (assuming that the devs work some sort of system like this into the game). Regardless, Clan omnimech designs are all extremely dangerous. It will be interesting to see how Clan tech is eventually brought into the game, but it would be reasonable to believe that Clan mechs will at least be very good.

As for stronger designs coming out later with Clan/LostTech... sure, but the same applies to all the other weight classes, too.

[Moodysea]

I remember playing MW3 online in 2000 I think. I took out 2 assault mechs and 1 heavy mech with my shadow cat. Loaded up with LRMs and jumpjets. No one could get near me on the ledge I was on. Wish i could remember the exact spec. It was very low on heatsinks though and terrible at close range. But I could just run jump and ten fire my LRMs.

[RecklessFable]

A lot of this conversation ends up being moot without talking about the map. A Hunchback can do horrible things to bigger mechs in a city fight.

I also suspect that an above poster was correct when they mentioned C-Bill generation coming into play. It might be prohibitively expensive to field Assault mechs due to earning for a battle being less than repair costs (much like WoT's Tier X). This might be the only "real" balancing factor keeping folks from constantly fielding Atlases. This will be especially true since there are no tiered matchups based on Drop-Weight.

[Fachxphyre]

Force recon, mobile command, fire support, hit and run striker . . . there are plenty of roles, dependant only on your imagination and loadout choices.

[Rayge]

The medium mechs really seem to scream 'commander' to me. I mean, they have said the commanders will be able to do sat scans which will assist with scouting, but they will also get to call in air strikes. So, they will assist their scouts but also drop long-distance ordinance.